Then we’re back full circle to I'm curious why you think enforcement of existing usury laws (without special rules for those who bribe enough) is the same as new building codes. Removing the special rules for predatory lending companies simplifies the law, it doesn’t complicate it like new, often contradictory building codes (that seem to be being used as an excuse for slow work by his contractor).
I feel like you’re comparing apples to brisket.

I think that's at the discretion of the judge, if you asked for 15%, likely you'll get your principal back, if you asked for 1500%, chances are you won't get a dime back as punishment, and may end up owing the borrower if you went overboard trying to collect.

I live in California, building codes change constantly. I agree, it is maddening and often backwards. He was specifically talking about codes for building stand alone solar, which are newer building codes. Even old building codes are often poorly thought out and contradictory. I'm not saying there isn't an abundance of red tape here, especially for building.
That said, his contractor should have been aware of all codes, submitted his plan, and would have approval or notes on what to change in weeks tops. There's something wrong when it takes over a year to get a shed built, some reason his plans weren't approved like they weren't to code.
Citation : personal experience - I installed solar in California, it took 3 days for my permit approval....and only that long because my contractor was being lazy.

That's the thing I disagree with, no new laws are needed at all, just a removal of exemptions/deregulations for businesses that pay large enough bribes (contributions) to elected officials. Even making all credit businesses operate on the same rules, allowing them 30% interest, seems ok, but that isn't reality today. It's unconscionable to allow 1600% interest on loans peddled to desperate people that don't actually qualify for a real, legitimate line of credit, many of whom don't understand it's what they're agreeing to, but the payday loan lobby is well funded and connected.
Citation:
Although U.S. states set their own maximum legal interest rates, a Supreme Court interpretation of the National Bank Act of 1864 preempted state usury laws and created a path toward a national consumer lending economy. The most important federal case in credit card interest rate deregulation was decided in 1978.

Her problems were multifold. The predatory loan took a fixable issue, her terrible customer service, and compounded it with insurmountable and ever expanding debt, which in turn undoubtedly hurt her customer service more, thus increasing her debt..... It sounds like she never should have purchased a service oriented business, and likely overextended herself from day one just to do it.

I'm unsure of your point in the last paragraph.

I think you mean they wouldn't have to pay you the interest. They would have to pay you back the principal. And that would be under specific cases and usually when no contract is involved, also all depends on where you live.

Also, I don't think either Bill's building codes are "new" vs. the usury laws being "existing". Please cite to support.

The irony is that additional laws to stop predatory lending are, in fact, what red tape is made of, by definition. So I found it amusing that he would look at her situation, say that Nancy and team were trying to solve it for her by passing new laws, then go on to complain about all the red tape surrounding this building. That red tape exists because someone else before him saw a problem or safety issue or concern, and put yet another policy or law in place to solve it. In reality, as your posts prove, her problem was not that a predatory lender got involved in her life, but that her business was in bad shape because she had gone off the deep end and was thus losing customers.

I could easily imagine a bit where he showed a stack of papers four inches thick that he had to sign to get a loan, and complain about the processing time, then showcase an SMS based loan that works in another country and funds in one day.

I'm curious why you think enforcement of existing usury laws is the same as new building codes.
If you loaned a friend money and charged over 10% interest, in many cases they don't ever have to pay you back anything because that's usury. Payday loan companies are only allowed to charge 1600% because they bribed congress to make them exempt from the law.

I've never read Rand, but today's forgotten word of the day seemed apropos...

Chrematistics: the science of wealth. From the Greek chremata, wealth. -John Ridpath's home reference library, 1898

In short-Aristotle established a difference between economics and chrematistics that would be foundational in medieval thought.[1] For Aristotle, the accumulation of money itself is an unnatural activity that dehumanizes those who practice it. Trade Exchanges, money for goods, and usury creates money from money, but do not produce useful goods.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrematistics

I imagine Rand was not a believer in chrematistics.

Not so funny that our president believes freedom of speech only comes into play if he likes what you have to say, otherwise he, as president, can and will have you punished.

Not so funny who's standing with him on that issue either...this is fascism by definition, so your support of this hyper authoritative nationalism makes you a fascist. You might consider that and rethink.....
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce...

Such a sad lack of critical thinking, and complete lack of comprehension of what freedom of speech means, or even what the protest is about. I wish there was a civics education test to hold office, he would have failed miserably.

Pretty sure he'll be running as an independent in 2020....good luck with that. Know ahead of time that he won't fund his campaign, you will. Also know that he will lend his campaign millions...at usury level interest, paid by you. Start saving your pennies now...he's going to need them.

Lyrics (found the translation on this site, which is definitely worth visiting to learn more about the group) are below. I've removed the original Japanese and Romanji transcriptions so that it is easier to read:

Title:
え・い・り・あ・ん
e i ri a n
A - L - I - E - N

Words and lyrics by Maximum the Ryo-kun

Flattering government
Deceiptful presentation
Fabricated details
Danger enterprise

Praise and censure creed
Jumbled up truth
All of Japan deploring
Has nihilism come?

Self-contradiction, loop of complaints
Fall into dilemma, many cases of depression
Swarming around rights, self-important men in suits
Coveting usury, some group or other

Self-interest slave loaded with empty arguments
Money disappears as vain expenses
Embracing distrust, discord arises
Standing idly on the side, discover indignation


Ego? Freedom? LOL. / Fart stench, sinister / “Why don’t you…?” Selfish
Ego? Freedom? LOL. / Fart stench, sinister / “Why don’t you…?” Selfish

Save me!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Throw it away!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Take it off! Treatment is yet to come!!
Save me!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Throw it away!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Take it off! Treatment is yet to come!!

Twenty years old, head to the election!!
The elected official will not be allowed into office!

A judge determintes eligible voters / Discretely and delicately / Straight to the future
Believe in the Force...Jedi
Believe in the Force...Jedi
Believe in the Force! Era!!

“I get it I get it I get it! You idiots!”
“Later Later Later I’ll e-mail you later”
“Your whiny whiny whining is noisy, idiot! Stop going out of your way to be so annoying”

“Chopper, go! Futoshi!”*
*Translator’s note: Futoshi is MTH’s bassist

Brother rescue
Brother let’s go
We are brothers, WE!!
You’re my brother, YOU!!

Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm

Booing, at you! A touch of abusive language! Booing! At that! STOP! Conspiracy!
Booing, at you! A touch of abusive language! Booing! At that! Prevent! Conspiracy!

Whose ally??? Whose ally???
Only your way of life cannot be taken by anyone

Vaaaaaaaaaa!!! Vaaaaaaaa!!! GO!!!

Every day meaning scrutiny / Every day meaning scrutiny / Every day meaning scrutiny

Alien, alien, kidnap me like in a movie...
Alien, alien, I am no match for eternity


STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
*Translator’s note: Winny was a p2p pirating software like napster that was very popular in Japan but isn’t really used anymore. In an interview, Ryo-kun (who does hate when his music is pirated, I think) was asked why he used such an old reference, he mentioned that he wanted to have a catchy “STOP” phrase where other stuff like “STOP NUKES” could be replaced.

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!! STOP WINNY!

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP STOP! STOP STOP!
STOP STOP! STOP STOP!
STOP STOP WINNY!

STOP STOP WINNY!

PV spoken ending:

D: We will not forgive use of WINNY under any circumstances! Anything but WINNY!

N: People aren’t even using WINNY these days. And there are plenty of other things we have to say “STOP!” to. So there’s no point in raising your voice like that. All the kids have left.

D: But, we can’t allow any more uploads...

N: No, I know, but look at the one kid left, about to cry.

D: (to kid) You think so too, don’t you?

N: No no no! She definitely has no idea. And now the last kid has left. You hate WINNY too, don’t you? I said, no one uses WINNY anymore.
Look at you, over there looking like Mitsue (Daisuke’s mom)...

D: What?!

N: Get that Mitsue look off your face.

N: It's one thing to talk bad about me...!

End

Upset with ALL governments draak13, the world stage works pitting one against another, usury of peoples by all of them. The cascading failures of governments worldwide is a planetary systemic failure, no one is better than another, some are simply closer to complete collapse than others.

Payday loans EDB, in the United States: Fast-money strip-center locations have been popping-up all over in every city now like warts on a leper, for the past 25 years, operating in a regulatory blind spot. They loan you money at an exorbitant, unfair interest rate fully expecting and banking on the person loaned not being able to pay back the loan according to contract then penalize with fines when the debt can't be repaid. Criminal organizations have relied upon USURY as a means of extracting money from helpless or uneducated and desperate people for centuries. Mafia organizations the world over have relied on this practice since they began. I don't expect the federal government to do anything much different as much of their activity has been criminal for quite some time.

Inhumane, predatory, sick.

SO it looks perfectly reasonable at face value??I call bullshit when I see it before it happens usually... Cenk here sees it as a wonderful way to create revenue out of thin air by taking the model of the payday loan places that already exist over, not unlike a mafia organization takes over territory of another criminal's organization.

If you think I'm skeptical you are correct, if you think I am wrong that is your prerogative. If you choose to block my comments or 'ignore' them, I don't care at all-It simply proves the point I make continually here, that those who chose to place their hands over their ears, or their heads in a sand-bucket are minion, and the few dissenting opinions are met with torch and pitchfork, either because of the language used to do so is too caustic, or perhaps that the truths in my babble that are too horrible and painful to consider are much easier to deride and deny or to even consider, to damaged sensibilities combined with an ego the size of Asia.

I also consider that your stance on guns and gun ownership as equally skewed, as is much of your political rhetoric. But hey, there are a lot of folks here who think the way you do. I happen to be one of the other people.

And again, Cenk, yer a pompous git whose ego is also bloated beyond fat, and your smarmy, smug delivery makes me want to hack-up my lunch.

Greeeeat, turn the fucking postal service into a flat-rate criminal usury house. They already have the facilities in place. Yeah, run this bitch for president.

A seemingly genuine gangster...It's sentiments like yours EDB, that make the sane wanna run screaming from Amerika

A good discussion of the movie here.

The film Money as Debt 2 has a better explanation of the present monetary system.

This film underestimates the difficulty of eliminating all forms of usury, from person to person lending up to national bank lending. Discount rates (the basis of interest) are fundamental to our psychology of the time value of goods.

>> ^Spacedog79:

I seem to have been downvoted quite hard for that one, I guess people didn't get the point I was trying to make is where do you get that money for government spending? This is the fundamental problem with our current system, it can only come from the government borrowing, thereby ultimately increacing our debt and inevitably leading to bankruptcy. The idea that we can continue to grow ourselves out of this economic hole is ludicrous and has caused enough environmental and social destruction as it is.
The ONLY solution it for government to STOP borrowing and start issuing money in the public interest without debt. Usury as a means of financing a nation must be sent back to the history books where it belongs.
>> ^sigmel:
>> ^Spacedog79:
Was going so well till he hit #4, spend more before paying down the debt? Nice one genius, how do you spend more under the current system without the goverment borrowing it and creating even more debt than they borrowed. Epic Keynesian fail.
Who's paying this guy, and what interest do they have in the debt based money system?

The idea is that you spend money to create growth (like an investment). Say the government spends $50k to fund a project that will create jobs that result in $10k in taxes a year. In five years you break even, and after that you start making money (ie, a good investment).



To be fair, I wasn't one of the ones who downvoted; I was just trying to explain as I understood it. You get the money for government spending by creating more money. Our interest rates on our bonds are very low right now, so there is no immediate inflation concern. This would have the effect of devaluing our money, but that could help us in terms of making our exports more competitive. If you borrow to create growth, then you should be creating enough in order to cover the initial cost and interest in due time.

Considering that we have such high unemployment, then I feel that using growth to get us out of this is very valid. If unemployment were a lot lower, then obviously we wouldn't have much in the way of ability to grow. But considering we need employment and increased tax revenue, I think creating jobs would be a good move to solve both problems. I also think it is possible to do this in a way that isn't detrimental in an environmental or social way.

I seem to have been downvoted quite hard for that one, I guess people didn't get the point I was trying to make is where do you get that money for government spending? This is the fundamental problem with our current system, it can only come from the government borrowing, thereby ultimately increacing our debt and inevitably leading to bankruptcy. The idea that we can continue to grow ourselves out of this economic hole is ludicrous and has caused enough environmental and social destruction as it is.

The ONLY solution it for government to STOP borrowing and start issuing money in the public interest without debt. Usury as a means of financing a nation must be sent back to the history books where it belongs.

>> ^sigmel:

>> ^Spacedog79:
Was going so well till he hit #4, spend more before paying down the debt? Nice one genius, how do you spend more under the current system without the goverment borrowing it and creating even more debt than they borrowed. Epic Keynesian fail.
Who's paying this guy, and what interest do they have in the debt based money system?

The idea is that you spend money to create growth (like an investment). Say the government spends $50k to fund a project that will create jobs that result in $10k in taxes a year. In five years you break even, and after that you start making money (ie, a good investment).

Seems to fit:

“Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit, it matters not who makes that nation's laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most conspicuous and sacred responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of Parliament and of democracy is idle and futile.”

-William Lyon Mackenzie King, former Prime Minister of Canada.

I think I may not have been clear about what I meant in my statement. I believe we're talking about two different segments of the same problem.

I absolutely agree with you that there has been very poor management of the U.S. debt over the past few years, especially in over the financial bail out/sub-prime mortgage/housing bubble fiasco. And yes, some (many?) of those individuals culpable are working with the current cabinet.

However, my thoughts were more to the fact that 1/2 the American national debt (some $5+ Trillion) is interest. I see this as a crime no single individual could commit over night. Yes, the last few years have had fuck-ups and thefts of the common purse on a colossal scale, but the majority of the (compound) interest on the the U.S. debt was accumulated before the bank bail out. I see those responsible as being the people who permitted the system with a privatized central bank. Money is now created by private companies through debt which the taxpayer is charged compound interest on.

NEW YORK -- Here's a new way to think about the U.S. government's epic borrowing: More than half of the $9 trillion in debt that Uncle Sam is expected to build up over the next decade will be interest.

More than half. In fact, $4.8 trillion.

If that's hard to grasp, here's another way to look at why that's a problem.

In 2015 alone, the estimated interest due - $533 billion - is equal to a third of the federal income taxes expected to be paid that year. /CNN, 2009.