honkeytonk73, you noggins the initial part where he is on about the inability to criticize previous wars. British people are generally fairly critical of war and pessimistic and general hate everything the government dose. old and new.

How do you reed what i put and say that i am calming the UK is not guilty of being retarded on the global stage?

the point is its openly talked about in public in the UK in the government it might be taboo but im not in the government to know that. a good example with how critical the cavialn population of uk is against government in uk been retarded is the amount of protesting that took place before the golf war 2.

manny people are opanly critical of the needless shit we did in ww2 and 1. and other crap england has done. the piont is not wether we have done shit ore not its weathor ore not its taboo to talk about the shit,.

usa has a far grater problem of patriotism where its unpatriotic to criticize war or it would be unpatreotic to not have flags all over the place. in uk most people couldn't give a shit about flags and are hardly proud of britain thay just see it as a place thay happen to be living in at a point in time. and this is also the view of many Europeans. still as i say uk has done more than its fair shaire of shit to the world the piont is a good proportion of people in england know this and are not proud of it. where as in usa people are largely ignorant to the countries foghen policy.

>> ^westy:
But guys are you all stupid "Patriot act" its patriotic obviously so there is nothing wrong with it. unless you are unpatriotic that's the only resoin you would go against it and well if that's the case then why don't you go to Mexico.

this was sarcasm yes?
had to be...
nobody really uses the..
"if your not with us,your against us" polemic anymore' do they?
its just so...
so..
/taps fingers
ah..got it!
s.t.u.p.i.d
but what do i know.
the school of leon strauss may still have its adherents,
even though they have been relegated to obscurity for their epic FAIL.
keep the faith bud,
maybe in 50 years people will forget how utterly awful neo-liberalism/neo-conservative actually was.

But guys are you all stupid "Patriot act" its patriotic obviously so there is nothing wrong with it. unless you are unpatriotic that's the only resoin you would go against it and well if that's the case then why don't you go to Mexico.

I wish I was as unpatriotic as this guy... I don't think there's a country in history that'd have 'im...

Someone needs to stop these right wing fanatics before they actually DO form a militia and start a civil war.

I say it's time for their own medicine. Lets start arresting them for being traitors and unpatriotic and see how they like it.

Uh oh! The terrorists have apparently won!

Ok now. Be quiet everyone. You must support the president without question or second guessing. It is unpatriotic to do otherwise. This is a time of war after all.

Right Qshroom?

For a military industrial complex (Such as the US) to make money, it needs to always have a war to fight so there is always a need to manufacture weapons.

But winning or losing a war is unstable, and long wars breed resentment and low morale in the population. The best way to guarantee a stable environment for the military industry is to have a war that will never end, but is threatening enough to civilians to reinforce it's necessity.

The cold war allowed the creation of weapons for decades without actually having to fire them. and people knew the war was necessary or they would be nuked.

But the "war on terror" is even better. Not only are terrorists everywhere and unbeatable... but it allows you to remove low morale and dissent as unpatriotic and possibly a terrorist.

The only problem is you need to have a focal point for people to 'hate at'.

You can't have shades of gray. You need archetypes. You need a key villain and you need an organization so you can get a clear black and white of us and them.

omg serving your country fuck that its unpatriotic

You must blindly support the president and plutocratic government... without question... or you are an unpatriotic antiamerican reject and deserve to be booted from the country.

Oh wait. Obama won the election? Ok. Well.. don't support him. We don't want none of those muslims runnin this cuntry.? Yeehaw!

^bobknight33:

Did you get your education from a school that doesn't proofread before posting? Or are you against funding is public schools and peoples right to an education?

If you have basis for your comments, go ahead and make that clear. What I'm sick of hearing is comments like those that Joe-the-Schmo makes about questioning someone's loyalty because they disagree. One of the things that the Bill'O'Rights declares is that people are allowed to have differing opinions --it isn't unpatriotic. Now, if you are so much more experienced then Senator Obama, with your non-government-school-education, then why aren't you running for president or at least for Senate?

Or maybe you should have paid more attention to a Real American during your education.

From the sourcewatch page you link, they have a link to the floor statement Obama made before the vote.

Here's a few choice pieces of that statement:

We all agreed that we needed legislation to make it harder for suspected terrorists to go undetected in this country. Americans everywhere wanted that.

...

Now, at times this issue has tended to degenerate into an "either-or" type of debate. Either we protect our people from terror or we protect our most cherished principles. But that is a false choice. It asks too little of us and assumes too little about America.

...

Let me be clear: this compromise is not as good as the Senate version of the bill, nor is it as good as the SAFE Act that I have cosponsored. I suspect the vast majority of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle feel the same way. But, it's still better than what the House originally proposed.

This compromise does modestly improve the PATRIOT Act by strengthening civil liberties protections without sacrificing the tools that law enforcement needs to keep us safe. In this compromise:


* We strengthened judicial review of both National Security Letters, the administrative subpoenas used by the FBI, and Section 215 orders, which can be used to obtain medical, financial and other personal records.

* We established hard time limits on sneak-and-peak searches and limits on roving wiretaps.

* We protected most libraries from being subject to National Security Letters.

* We preserved an individual's right to seek counsel and hire an attorney without fearing the FBI's wrath.

* And we allowed judicial review of the gag orders that accompany Section 215 searches.

...

So, I will be supporting the Patriot Act compromise. But I urge my colleagues to continue working on ways to improve the civil liberties protections in the Patriot Act after it is reauthorized.

It appears that proponents of 3rd party candidates can smear and distort their opponents' positions with just as much disregard for the truth as Republicans.

If you care about civil liberties vote for Obama. A 3rd party will not win the Presidency this year, and "sending a message" by voting 3rd party will fall on deaf ears within the major parties, and in the public at large.

It's time to stop looking for your ideal candidate, and make a choice to either support a candidate who got his degree in Constitutional Law or help elect someone who thinks disagreement with the government is unpatriotic.

>> ^rougy:
It's ironic that some of the most pro-American, pro-democracy arguments that I've heard have come from people who aren't even American, or originally American (Ferguson became a US citizen earlier this year).

I think xxovercastxx's explanation is on point. Most Americans have been ground down by the Republican machine and are shown the image of a nuclear apocalypse whenever anyone dissents or is unpatriotic enough to reference facts. People who leave their country to come to America remember what it's supposed to stand for, and aren't content with being complacent and flacid while the country goes to hell. Many outsiders can more clearly see its dismantling, and what's at stake, than those living inside the bubble who naturally tend to take it for granted.

The Italians should be careful or pizza will be declared unpatriotic soon.

I disagree with Biden strongly here. The notion that it has anything to do with patriotism is moronic, and no better than saying that you're unpatriotic if you don't support the war (or if you don't wear a fucking lapel pin).

How is making the top 1% of America pay their fair share unpatriotic?

Under Obama, you'll probably enjoy a bigger tax break than under McCain.

Unless you're in that 1%. Do you make over 220k, QM? Because that'd be the only reason for such whining...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html