Don't do the Crime, if you can't Pay the Fine.

otherwise... game on for profits!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasso_financial_smuggling_case

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/9089268/Italian-police-seize-6-trillion-of-fake-US-bonds-in-Switzerland.html

http://www.cfr.org/uk/understanding-libor-scandal/p28729

http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/

and those above are just the ones we KNOW were out to screw us... the veil has been lifted on big pharma... and we're all to sick to do anything about it so we buy more pills! yay cycles of despair

accept science and legalize cannabis, in conclusion. anytime now... would be great... thx DEA

Pfft... I once threw a Frisbee directly upwards at 11.2 km/s.

Besides, he probably killed an orphan in Switzerland or something.

@braschlosan Thank you for sharing despite the emotional difficulty. The US system is indeed completely F'd up, I agree. I am speaking from the prospect of someone living in Switzerland, where prison life is quite comfortable and you have to do something really, really bad (e.g. rape will get you a few months, letting someone rape your girlfriend and then trying to get him to pay you for it will get you no punishment at all) to ever set foot there (most criminals get a fine that hardly any of them ever pay). I am all for rehabilitation, believe me, and it goes without saying that prisoners should be treated humanely. What I am saying is it should not only be reeducation, it should also be punishment. Just as one deprives one's kid from TV, games and or going out for a while as punishment for bad behaviour, while still encouraging them to be better.
Here in Switz you are encouraged to do apprenticeships in jail that are the equivalent of those everyone else does for a wide variety of professions; you can even work a job outside of prison if you are not considered dangerous (for the record, a man who stabbed another man + got a 14yo girl drunk to rape her was allowed this in his meagre 1 year sentence; just to show how lenient things are here).

I guess the misunderstanding is that my opinion is based on seeing Norway as far more similar to Switzerland than to the States. I have raged elsewhere on the Sift about how terrible the US prison system is, i.e. basically a dehumanizing slave market, but that is not what I am criticising here. I am simply saying that those who commit crimes (taking drugs or growing pot is not a crime imo btw, and here you hardly even get fined for it) should pay there dues to society while learning to be a productive/participating member thereof, instead of having society put them up in a luxury hotel at the expense of people who, despite their needs (yes, poor people exist in Europe too) refuse to take the easy way out, or give in to their baser impulses.

There is a political aspect to it too: when the taxpaying public continually reads about criminals getting off with little or no punishment, or being put in comfortable jails a few weeks before being let off to continue their thieving/raping/racketeering/etc, they tend to be more attracted to the conservative extremists. It particularly does not help that Travel People, Maghrebins, Africans and Eastern Europeans are over-represented in these areas, which fuels the xenophobic agenda of right-wing parties.

Okay, enough ranting from me. I am sorry if I upset you @braschlosan, I think it is mostly because of the misunderstanding concerning our different points of reference.

>> ^hpqp:

Wow. I hesitated answering you, because someone who calls imprisonment "kidnapping" might not have all their marbles, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
1) I don't know about Norway, but I live in a similarly rich and privileged country (Switzerland) and I can assure you that we have poor people who cannot afford housing with private toilets per person, flat screens with cable TV, or even a bedroom all to one's self.
2) Yes, of course criminals owe a debt to society. Legal procedures cost money. Police enforcement (to find/arrest them) costs money. The services that the victims of crimes are provided with by the state cost money. And then there is the direct debt depending on the crime (e.g. theft as you concede) as well as the moral debt (e.g. in case of physical/sexual abuse or murder) which usually translates into compensation money. Not to mention the price it costs to lodge and guard the criminals in prison.
3) Says you and what proof? Are you suggesting there are no homeless people in Norway? No families living in large numbers in small apartments, several per room/toilet? You're talking out of your ass.
4) This is where you get really crazy. Are you saying that there is no punishable crime? That it is not taking advantage of society to use violence/coercion/trickery/infraction to attain wealth (or sexual satisfaction), for example, instead of taking the legal routes?
Moreover, where did you get the idea that rehabilitation is out of the question? One does not need luxury to learn to be an honest member of society. And the idea is not to make people bored/crazy through isolation, quite the contrary. If you had read my comment carefully you'd have noticed that I advocate hard work for prisoners (which is a part of rehabilitation along with education programs etc. which I support), and basic living conditions which also means sharing one's cell; neither of these allow for boredom or isolation.
And if you're going to say it is not fair to make them work, then you hold truly deluded (and hypocritical) beliefs on society.
>> ^swedishfriend:
1) I am sure the poor people in Norway live as well or better and they are not locked up against their will.
2) Debt to society? They may owe a debt to the person they stole from or hurt. I do not agree with the idea: we are going to kidnap you and lock you up against your will and then make you pay for the costs. Not fair at all.
3) No-one in Norway would call those things luxuries no matter how poor which is why they don't mind putting them in prisons.
4) The person who is forcibly taken and held against their will is taking advantage of society? Do you think it was a prisoner who made these rules?
I think it is questionable enough that society should be allowed to commit the crime of kidnapping when individuals are not allowed to do so but then to also try to keep criminals from rehabilitating only makes the problem worse for everyone. Why try through boredom and isolation to make people crazy or crazier. That doesn't seem like it would help anyone in society least of all the person who is held against their will.
>> ^hpqp:
I am totally against giving so much luxury to prisoners, for several reasons.
1) It is highly unfair that a criminal would be given better living conditions than the poor people who, despite the temptation, respect society's rules.
2) Criminals are in prison to pay their debt to society, often one that has cost the taxpayer a pretty sum. They should be working in basic conditions to pay that back, not leeching even more.
3) I totally agree that prisoners should be treated humanely, but suggesting that depriving them of certain luxuries (such as TV, private WC/shower, etc) is inhumane means that society is already treating those who cannot afford those luxuries while still respecting the law inhumanely already, and should perhaps give the honest citizens the priority.
4) If it is expected of the honest citizen to work and pay her/his own costs, even if that means going without luxuries, it should be all the more so of those who have broken the law. I have especially no pity for the kind of criminal who chooses crime for the easy money, all the while taking advantage of the country's lenient judicial system and generous taxpayers.




You're an idiot and a previous poster had the right idea by saying his opinion is worthless cause he's ignorant. You rise to the level of idiot because you seem to think your opinion about this subject matters. Might as well ask you how the fuck NASA should spend it's money.

Wow. I hesitated answering you, because someone who calls imprisonment "kidnapping" might not have all their marbles, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
1) I don't know about Norway, but I live in a similarly rich and privileged country (Switzerland) and I can assure you that we have poor people who cannot afford housing with private toilets per person, flat screens with cable TV, or even a bedroom all to one's self.
2) Yes, of course criminals owe a debt to society. Legal procedures cost money. Police enforcement (to find/arrest them) costs money. The services that the victims of crimes are provided with by the state cost money. And then there is the direct debt depending on the crime (e.g. theft as you concede) as well as the moral debt (e.g. in case of physical/sexual abuse or murder) which usually translates into compensation money. Not to mention the price it costs to lodge and guard the criminals in prison.
3) Says you and what proof? Are you suggesting there are no homeless people in Norway? No families living in large numbers in small apartments, several per room/toilet? You're talking out of your ass.
4) This is where you get really crazy. Are you saying that there is no punishable crime? That it is not taking advantage of society to use violence/coercion/trickery/infraction to attain wealth (or sexual satisfaction), for example, instead of taking the legal routes?

Moreover, where did you get the idea that rehabilitation is out of the question? One does not need luxury to learn to be an honest member of society. And the idea is not to make people bored/crazy through isolation, quite the contrary. If you had read my comment carefully you'd have noticed that I advocate hard work for prisoners (which is a part of rehabilitation along with education programs etc. which I support), and basic living conditions which also means sharing one's cell; neither of these allow for boredom or isolation.

And if you're going to say it is not fair to make them work, then you hold truly deluded (and hypocritical) beliefs on society.

>> ^swedishfriend:

1) I am sure the poor people in Norway live as well or better and they are not locked up against their will.
2) Debt to society? They may owe a debt to the person they stole from or hurt. I do not agree with the idea: we are going to kidnap you and lock you up against your will and then make you pay for the costs. Not fair at all.
3) No-one in Norway would call those things luxuries no matter how poor which is why they don't mind putting them in prisons.
4) The person who is forcibly taken and held against their will is taking advantage of society? Do you think it was a prisoner who made these rules?
I think it is questionable enough that society should be allowed to commit the crime of kidnapping when individuals are not allowed to do so but then to also try to keep criminals from rehabilitating only makes the problem worse for everyone. Why try through boredom and isolation to make people crazy or crazier. That doesn't seem like it would help anyone in society least of all the person who is held against their will.
>> ^hpqp:
I am totally against giving so much luxury to prisoners, for several reasons.
1) It is highly unfair that a criminal would be given better living conditions than the poor people who, despite the temptation, respect society's rules.
2) Criminals are in prison to pay their debt to society, often one that has cost the taxpayer a pretty sum. They should be working in basic conditions to pay that back, not leeching even more.
3) I totally agree that prisoners should be treated humanely, but suggesting that depriving them of certain luxuries (such as TV, private WC/shower, etc) is inhumane means that society is already treating those who cannot afford those luxuries while still respecting the law inhumanely already, and should perhaps give the honest citizens the priority.
4) If it is expected of the honest citizen to work and pay her/his own costs, even if that means going without luxuries, it should be all the more so of those who have broken the law. I have especially no pity for the kind of criminal who chooses crime for the easy money, all the while taking advantage of the country's lenient judicial system and generous taxpayers.

Can you read French? Here are two articles, one from France, one from Switzerland, on the subject. The google translation is readable but horrid (I only checked for the French article). Note that both these newspapers are left (far-left for Libération) leaning newspapers, that deplore above all the fate of these kids.

http://www.laliberte.ch/info/les-mineurs-roms-d-sarment-la-police
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101526553-gens-du-voyage-un-reseau-d-enfants-eleves-pour-voler


>> ^Nebosuke:

>> ^hpqp:
It might not be the case here, but this video reminds me of the problem Europe faces with Travel People who send their underage kids - who have been trained and brainwashed into loyalty - to beg and/or steal because they know the judicial system can't touch them. Really smaddening. /rant

I would be interested in more information.

"She also laughed off suggestions she should run for office in Switzerland."

Funny, that's how I responded to her candidacy here in the USA.

HA! YOUR PROBLEM NOW SWITZERLAND

Thanks I had to watch it again myself. Their myspace page doesn't list any upcoming shows at all... but you could go there to click on the bring them here button.

Thank you also for upvoting so many of my older ones
In reply to this comment by hpqp:
*quality kick-ass music. I so wish I could see them live... (come to Switzerland godammit!)

*quality kick-ass music. I so wish I could see them live... (come to Switzerland godammit!)

If you're going to out one company for being in business with Foxconn, why not out them all? Own a game console? Your Xbox, PS3, and Wii were all made here. Like to read? This is where your Kindle came from.

Foxconn isn't just producing ithings and iphones, they assemble 40% of the world's electronics. Here's a list of SOME of Foxconn's clients (from wikipedia):

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Apple Inc. (United States)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

oh putain, ça c'est vrai peut-être pour les français... ne l'essaie pas en Suisse!

(translation: this might be true for the French, but don't try it in Switzerland, you'll sound like a "sale jeune")

Let's all move to Switzerland -Jessica Latshaw

I want to visit Switzerland

It must be very cold in Switzerland.