@transmorpher
ha! right on man.

let me start that there really is no argument between us,just a disagreement by degrees is all.

you do not have to refute my claim that "veganism is carried out for the feeling of superiority."

because i never made that claim.
my criticism was specific and focused on a single person @ahimsa,who,if you read his commentary,is most certainly taking a morally superior stance.

if you compare how you were interacting and how ahimsa was interacting.the differences are quite stark.

you were quite open and honest on how you eventually reached veganism.(bravo my friend),but i didnt really see you berate or belittle someone for still eating meat,or being a non-vegan.

oh...you certainly argued your points and exposed weak and facile arguments.you offered new ways of looking at the situation,but you really didn't judge a person for not following your ways of thinking/being/doing.

basically you took responsibility for your choices.shared your reasons for those choices and have allowed people to make THEIR own choices.

how can you not respect that?
which is why i wanted to trade partners.
tongue in cheek of course..that was my way of giving you props and respect.

ahimsa,on the other hand,didnt even respect those he engaged with enough to even use his own words,and instead indulged in presumption,laziness and pretentious twattery.(god,i love that phrase.thank you britain!)

ahimsa approached veganism much the same way a newly born again person approaches talking about their new love for jesus,by proselytizing.

being a man of faith i can understand and relate to someone experiencing a profoundly life changing event,manifested by a serious epiphany and the desire to share that new understanding with everyone you meet.confident in an absolute certitude of righteousness.

but it can be so aggravating to be on the receiving end of such self righteousness,because there has been little time of actual examination and reflection.the newness and novelty cloud all other considerations and ANY rebuttal or deviation is seen as an affront,a sacrilege and blasphemy and therefore should be dismissed...entirely.

i suspect that ahimsa is young and his/her veganism is fairly new and fresh.this would explain the religious quality of his/her arguments.

YOU..on the other hand,have approached from a far more even handed and open way.choosing instead to use humor and wit to make your arguments while not judging those you disagree,allowing for a real dialogue which can lead to understanding.

so good on you mate.

i specifically like the fact you lay out your journey and the reasons why ,but you do not admonish those for not following the same path.which is the correct way to engage.

and what i REALLY dig,is that your argument is basically "this is how i came to where i am,and i am betting that you will to...eventually".

because,at it's heart,you are 100% correct.there really IS no reason to eat meat.

a person who eats meat really has only ONE reason and that is simply "because i want to".now there are cultural and racial reasons,long standing heritage and dishes passed down over generations,and you acknowledge that,because it really is important and is underlying reason why so many still eat meat(and because we want to).

but i suspect that your final argument is more correct than incorrect.meat will eventually go away and be replaced by something better and more healthy.

but that takes time.possibly a generation or two.maybe three.
you recognize this,while ahimsa does not.

i also suspect you may be heading on your way to old fartdom.

anyways,thanks for the dance mate.
you seem a righteous dude.

fair enough and it seems your opinion is the majority.
and thanks for replying,i usually never ask why someone downvotes but i felt that we were on pretty good terms for me the broach that question.

i am not a biochemist nor a scientist but i have been coming across more and more articles from those who ARE biochemists who are coming to same conclusion that dr campbell has.

the video arvana posted had much of the same information.

but..to be fair..i have also come across articles stating the exact opposite,and campbell does have his critics and dissenters.

you know me though,i like it ALL to be on the table and danny has been kind enough to offer his services to help discern the true from the bullshit.so i look forward to his findings.

anyways,much gratitutde for illuminating your position.
you are one righteous dude and the dude abides.

@artician
because you are a fully actualized human being.
the majority of the western cultures have been berated under a cascade of distractions and so-called "entertainment" to further their devolution into little consumption machines...SQUIRREL!

when you attempt to understand someone from their perspective,through empathy and compassion,you begin to love them.this is a natural process which does not fit into the "us and them" paradigm.

the tools for violence and conflict are made flaccid and ineffectual.
religion.
nationalism.
become useless tools to manipulate.


understanding leads to love which leads to cooperation which only serves to undermine the interests of the powerful...so that can never be allowed.

it is the natural state of being that humans cooperate and work together but we,in the "developed" world,are taught that greed is good and selfishness is an admirable trait to pursue.

it is a spiritual cancer.

how ironic that those who live in the "under-developed" world are much more prone to share,cooperate and have a far more dynamic understanding of community.

the more i read your comments the more convinced i am that you are one righteous dude.
you are not alone.
the rising tide of resistance grows each and every day.
stay awesome my man.

@newtboy
"i know you are but what am i i"?

that had me cackling like a loon.bravo my friend.

please understand guys my comment is in reference to this particular thread,not any previous private or otherwise.

my commentary was also tongue-n-cheek and not to be taken too seriously.
i was poking the hornets nest...like a boss..who also happens to be a dick.

please forgive.

as for conflicting private to public messages.
well..that would infuriate me as well newt.you wont get an argument from me on that point.
that speaks to a persons character and integrity and explains a ton in regards to your attitude towards @chingalera.

our integrity is all we have.
when you take away everything,the only thing left we have to trade is our word.
our honor.
our respect for another human being.
when we lose that trust....we lose everything.

i do not know the particulars on how you all conversed in private.its none of my business and not my place to judge.

but if what you are saying is true newt (and i have no reason to believe it isnt.there is a past precedent in that regard) then i have to ask @chingalera why?

why say one thing in private and then another in public?
that is so disengenuious and un-necessary my man.
you make good solid points..often,and often i agree with them.
so why would invalidate them by interacting with such duplicity?

you cant call out newt for disregarding or dismissing your points because it was YOU who invalidated those points by your interactions with him.

and you know this.
dont act like you dont because i know your smarter than the average bear.so dont insult my intelligence by feigning innocence.

you owe newt an apology.period.

and dont prove @VoodooV right.we both were there when you flamed out and it was ugly.
and you made it ugly by taking it personal.
i never judged you for that..still dont.
but that does not mean i condoned how you played that closing scene out.
real people had real feelings hurt...including you.

now i realize this thread is destroyed and i dont even know who i need to apologize to.
so...
to the original poster:i am truly sorry for this tragic hi-jacking of your thread.

but it appears necessary.

@chingalera i realize that much of what you do is to shock people out of complacency.
to get them to perceive a situation with different goggles.
many times the weapons you use are confrontational language and a persistence that rivals the most glorious case of OCD.

those intentions are noble.
i agree and am of a similar mindset.this is probably why i can read choggie-speak with little trouble.

i understand what you are trying to do.

but how can you expect someone like @newtboy to listen to anything you have to say when you cant keep even basic correspondence open and honest?
it invalidates everything you attempt from then on out.
your words have to have the weight of your integrity behind them for them to have ANY impact.
you lose that and your words become dust.

sounds like you will have to work to gain the respect from @newtboy.i wish you well in that endeavour.

please understand i consider you a friend @chingalera and hearing this has upset me a great deal.

and @VoodooV,
you may be right brother.i do not know what the future brings.hopefully ching will prove you wrong.i know he could if he wanted.

but i disagree with keeping the riff raff out.
i dont mind confrontation or arguments.in fact i LOVE them and @chingalera has a talent for poking the hornets nest and shattering the monotone-vanilla-circle-jerk-clones into a frenzy.

and that my friend..is a good thing.

@chingalera keeps the locals buzzing,constantly challenging pre-concieved notions and ideologies and i love that fucker for that.he keeps this site interesting.his antics bring lurkers to actually comment/post and others who usually side-line to jump in.

all good things.

but...
i cannot abide the darker side.
the hurtful side.
maybe i am being naive'....i always see redemption for those who the entrenched masses see as unredeemable.i always feel i can save those who are truly lost.

i always see the human first and the actions last.

so you may be right.i just hope you are wrong.
maybe this thread will impact my friend and remind him we are all humans.

i dont know.........
i hope though...
i hope.

@ChaosEngine again,as i told newtboy,no argument here.
hopefully this derailed thread has cleared some air and brought the things to the table that needed to be discussed.

which from my viewpoint is about integrity.
you cant admonish people for being egocentric and then turn around and be egocentric yourself.
it weakens the very position you were trying to make in the first place.(ching,not you CE).
it is hypocritical.

i am a dissident.
a radical.
a subversive.
even to the church i am an apostate.
so i understand @chingalera on a certain level.he has never treated me other than a friend and compatriot.so it pains me to see how he deals with those he disagrees with,and just how far he will take a story to a painful conclusion.
this does not give be joy or pleasure.

he is a righteous dude.passionate,sensitive and creative and has soooo much to offer.
im sorry ya'all didnt get to see that side of him.
but maybe thats on him,because you all should.

there is a reason he has been invited back multiple times and its not because he whined about it but rather he truly is an exceptional human being.

maybe he should show that side more.
takes honesty and courage,but that boy has a huge capacity for that.

@chingalera
balls in your court brother.
what ya gonna do?

*note* for all those who read to this point.
cookies and milk will be served in the back storage room.
free fondlings for the ladies.
dont forget to tip your bartenders and waitresses!

well i am glad i checked my email.
otherwise i would have missed your reply (you posted it to your own page.which i have done as well).

i glad we can move past this nastiness and misunderstanding.
text lacks nuance and being human we sometimes interject our own subjective nature based on our own understandings.

it is only through communication and respect can we truly develop a clearer understanding of the person we are interacting with.
i do thank you for taking the time to listen to my words and accept my apology.

i still think you are a righteous dude.

aw hell yeah man!
got no issue with you following the convo.i really like chatting with trance,he is a righteous dude.
that and i kinda figured you were lurking lol.

ya know for a poet i really struggle with economy of words and end up just rambling.
i am trying to figure out where trance is at,or more accurately,why he feels the way he does.

unrestricted free markets? might as well go back to 1840.
not used to being on opposite benches in regards to our boy trance,but i respect him and thats always a good start to have a good conversation.

@shinyblurry
you have it backwards.
my authority derives from the creator,YOU on the other hand derive your authority from a book.

and please stop deluding yourself into thinking you have any idea who i am.
because you dont.
and to insinuate i have turned people from christ when i have specifically told you details to the contrary is just vulgar.

what saddens me the most is that your unquestioning,slack-jawed adherence to a flawed document will keep you in a perpetual state of spiritual childhood.

the gospels were meant to free you,not enslave you to a book.
but a slave you have become and you defend that tiny prison you live in like a child who only wishes to remain sleeping and dreaming of deliverance.

any information that may be perceived as contrary to your theosophy will have you scouring the apologist pages for a retort.you become copy-paste happy in order to refute any contrary information in regards to the BOOK you hold in your hand.

are you totally unaware of your OWN motivations?
this is a secular site.the majority here are atheists and/or agnostics.
many of them former christians of one flavor or another and some even from fundamentalist families.so they have become quite adept at communicating the flaws they have found in biblical text.

do you think they do this JUST to annoy you?
did it ever occur to you that maybe..just maybe..many here are actually just sharing the very information that changed their minds concerning religion,god and their place in the universe?
and have you noticed how you treat them?
with arrogance and condescension.
the irony being that you will throw a fit if someone treats you in such a manner yet ignore when you,yourself,partake in such bad manners.
it is the height of hypocrisy.

you have made many ignore lists due to your inability to self regulate.Kceaton being the most recent.which is a shame because he is a righteous dude who has the courage to speak from the heart and has often attempted to speak to you with open-ness and honesty.
many here have and you have responded with arrogance,condescension and a self=righteousness that is annoying as it is petty and small.

and all this because you got your authority from a book.
that somehow you have gleaned the mysteries of the cosmos and people who do not garner their understandings from the same,tangible and physical BOOK are somehow automatically wrong.

you are not perfect.
your understandings are flawed.
your arguments are watered-down copy-pasted weak sauce and the majority of the time not even your own.
you are a child who needs to grow up.

and if you ever even suggest that i turn people from christ again,you will be on my ignore list as well.i tire of dealing with your passive aggressive nature.
it has become dull and boring.
grow up shiny.

(sorry for the lengthy rant everybody, but seeing shiny insinuate that i have turned people from christ just set me off)

In reply to this comment by gwiz665:
I appreciate you taking the time to point that out. I am pretty Knight Templar in my fight against organized religion, but as battles come, I think it's a worthy one.
In reply to this comment by enoch:
my first comment concerning shiny was after his initial comment.
which was rife with dogmatic doublespeak but i did not feel worthy of people ganging up on him.
i do not tolerate bullying of any kind (even with someone i may disagree with).
of course shiny then promptly threw me under the bus after my comment to prattle away is dogma-speak to passive-aggressively attack those who disagreed with him.

so.
i stand by my original comment due to the lack of information shiny had provided and the reaction of some people.
but you are spot on due to the fact that he had contracted diarrhea of the mouth soon after.prattling on like a preacher convinced of his own righteousness.

my comment was to defend shiny's right to be who he is and to point out that some people were being a tad hypocritical.
and it worked...at least it did for many of the commenting sifters who changed their tone concerning shiny.
shiny on the other hand just kept inserting his foot in his mouth.
and the sifters dealt with him accordingly.
i warned him but i have a feeling it made no impact.
a fundamentalist is convinced of his/her own righteousness because the cherry picked verse/chapter tells them so.
sad really...shiny let a good opportunity slip by him and he didnt even notice (another side affect of fundamentalism).

also..
if you scroll a bit further down on that thread you may notice that i call shiny out for that very thing.
missing an opportunity and to stop being preachy.
sighs..some people never learn.

anyways.
you know i think your a righteous dude but i just wanted to clear up my intent(which sometimes gets lost in text)and it was not directed at you.
you always deal with the content of the comment and i rarely see you deal with the commenter.
some people made it personal based on pretty much nothing but presumption.that shows a weak intellect and i felt obligated to point that out.

knights templar///snickers
nice reference.
they did obtain a new understanding of doctrine which placed them at odds with the church..hence friday the 13th and their utter obliteration perpetrated upon them by the church.
i am in total agreement with you concerning organized religion and the institutions therein.
i probably come across as schizophrenic to those that dont know me considering my disdain and abject rage towards organized religion but i will fight anything that seeks to dominate and suppress my fellow man.
and most of my atheist friends agree.
prolly why we get along bud.

I appreciate you taking the time to point that out. I am pretty Knight Templar in my fight against organized religion, but as battles come, I think it's a worthy one.
In reply to this comment by enoch:
my first comment concerning shiny was after his initial comment.
which was rife with dogmatic doublespeak but i did not feel worthy of people ganging up on him.
i do not tolerate bullying of any kind (even with someone i may disagree with).
of course shiny then promptly threw me under the bus after my comment to prattle away is dogma-speak to passive-aggressively attack those who disagreed with him.

so.
i stand by my original comment due to the lack of information shiny had provided and the reaction of some people.
but you are spot on due to the fact that he had contracted diarrhea of the mouth soon after.prattling on like a preacher convinced of his own righteousness.

my comment was to defend shiny's right to be who he is and to point out that some people were being a tad hypocritical.
and it worked...at least it did for many of the commenting sifters who changed their tone concerning shiny.
shiny on the other hand just kept inserting his foot in his mouth.
and the sifters dealt with him accordingly.
i warned him but i have a feeling it made no impact.
a fundamentalist is convinced of his/her own righteousness because the cherry picked verse/chapter tells them so.
sad really...shiny let a good opportunity slip by him and he didnt even notice (another side affect of fundamentalism).

also..
if you scroll a bit further down on that thread you may notice that i call shiny out for that very thing.
missing an opportunity and to stop being preachy.
sighs..some people never learn.

anyways.
you know i think your a righteous dude but i just wanted to clear up my intent(which sometimes gets lost in text)and it was not directed at you.
you always deal with the content of the comment and i rarely see you deal with the commenter.
some people made it personal based on pretty much nothing but presumption.that shows a weak intellect and i felt obligated to point that out.

my first comment concerning shiny was after his initial comment.
which was rife with dogmatic doublespeak but i did not feel worthy of people ganging up on him.
i do not tolerate bullying of any kind (even with someone i may disagree with).
of course shiny then promptly threw me under the bus after my comment to prattle away is dogma-speak to passive-aggressively attack those who disagreed with him.

so.
i stand by my original comment due to the lack of information shiny had provided and the reaction of some people.
but you are spot on due to the fact that he had contracted diarrhea of the mouth soon after.prattling on like a preacher convinced of his own righteousness.

my comment was to defend shiny's right to be who he is and to point out that some people were being a tad hypocritical.
and it worked...at least it did for many of the commenting sifters who changed their tone concerning shiny.
shiny on the other hand just kept inserting his foot in his mouth.
and the sifters dealt with him accordingly.
i warned him but i have a feeling it made no impact.
a fundamentalist is convinced of his/her own righteousness because the cherry picked verse/chapter tells them so.
sad really...shiny let a good opportunity slip by him and he didnt even notice (another side affect of fundamentalism).

also..
if you scroll a bit further down on that thread you may notice that i call shiny out for that very thing.
missing an opportunity and to stop being preachy.
sighs..some people never learn.

anyways.
you know i think your a righteous dude but i just wanted to clear up my intent(which sometimes gets lost in text)and it was not directed at you.
you always deal with the content of the comment and i rarely see you deal with the commenter.
some people made it personal based on pretty much nothing but presumption.that shows a weak intellect and i felt obligated to point that out.

Its Megyn...with a Y. How can you not dig her total righteousness dude.

A real righteous dude.

Cheer up thinker. Don't get all emo on us. I don't think your avatar would look good in black eye liner.

You seem like a generally righteous dude. Don't get depressed. There is a member here who could probably help you with your depression. Maybe this guy could help too. He's got all sorts of good shit from the looks of it. Don't forget we also have this guy. He can help you to remember to forget.

We are a community. We are here to help you. Consider this group therapy with a little bit of tough love. (I is missing KP too. And all his parentheses. And all his sentences that begin with conjunctions.

*group hug

Hooray for mp3s. I'll pm a mediafire link in a few minutes.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
Yes, I'm interested, By all means send it to me, provided it doesn't cost you anything. If it will cost you then I insist on paying for it. You're a righteous dude, my friend.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
Well, the bassist plays with the pillows, who I'm a huge fan of, so I got into these guys quite a while back, and have loved them for a good almost two years now I think. They only released two albums, but both were really good, especially "Killing Pop," the one with Eleking as the opener. If you're interested, I could send it to you sometime.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
Thanks for the translation! Great find, BTW.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
I'm extremely partial to the entire song in general, from the slightly dark opening to the beautiful vocals (especially the chorus).

By the way, I posted a translation, so go ahead and take a look.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
Give it a chance to get rolling..

Though the song does get better as it gets going, the intro is still great. I love dark, moody music like that. In other words, this whole song is awesome. I wish I knew the lyrics. (Don't worry, I'm not asking you to be Translation Boy.)

Yes, I'm interested, By all means send it to me, provided it doesn't cost you anything. If it will cost you then I insist on paying for it. You're a righteous dude, my friend.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
Well, the bassist plays with the pillows, who I'm a huge fan of, so I got into these guys quite a while back, and have loved them for a good almost two years now I think. They only released two albums, but both were really good, especially "Killing Pop," the one with Eleking as the opener. If you're interested, I could send it to you sometime.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
Thanks for the translation! Great find, BTW.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
I'm extremely partial to the entire song in general, from the slightly dark opening to the beautiful vocals (especially the chorus).

By the way, I posted a translation, so go ahead and take a look.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
Give it a chance to get rolling..

Though the song does get better as it gets going, the intro is still great. I love dark, moody music like that. In other words, this whole song is awesome. I wish I knew the lyrics. (Don't worry, I'm not asking you to be Translation Boy.)