>> ^ryanbennitt:

Er, you get the Monday off every year, May Day Bank Holiday, thanks to paganism.


Every holiday we have in the US is thanks to paganism. You think Jesus was born Dec 25th? Or that he died on a variable day every spring? Or that Halloween has anything to do with a saint? That May Day is tied to Christianity in some obtuse fashion? All were pagan holidays before they were christian so kids, don't forget to tell your mothers that you are thankfully to paganism for having those two weeks off.

Er, you get the Monday off every year, May Day Bank Holiday, thanks to paganism.

"pagan athiests" is an oxymoron.

*crazy eyes*

Burn them! Burn them at the stake! Burn them at the stake! Burn them! Our peace loving tolerant god hates your ass and wants to torture you in hell! Burn! Pagan breathe Righteous Fire!

Yeah. Way to go Christians. Good job.

I usually expect well reasoned arguments from Penn. The comments above are right on.

The Pagan comment is historically accurate. Let Penn embrace the Coming of the Light. The pagans did and Christmas was invented to compete with that ancient celebration. Had to give something to the masses if you were going to deny them their seasonal celebrations.

Move to the Pacific Northwest if you want to really understand how important and joyous the first day of winter is.... THE DAYS ARE GETTING LONGER!

He can use that as a basis for joy in the season.

Also... is anyone else annoyed by his changing cameras? I wanted him to knock it off after 45 seconds.

Interesting, but I disagree with Penn here to a large extent.

I am an atheist, but I don't think anyone should feel like they need to exclude themselves from celebrating Christmas, or any other holiday, out of respect towards those who assign a deeper / broader / different meaning to the day.

For one thing, start with the obvious: there is no indication that the person referred to in the Bible as Jesus, if he existed at all, was born on December 25th. I think that date was assigned at the Council of Nicea in 325AD, and was chosen because it was already celebrated as the winter solstice / birth of Pagan Sun God(s, of which the biblical Jesus could arguably be included amongst). So if secularists "steal" the "deeper meaning" of Christmas from Christians, they aren't doing anything that Christians didn't do to a long history of Pagans.

I think one can easily strike a respectful middle ground without bringing that up though. Celebrate the holiday in whatever way you want, including or excluding any elements you find good or bad. Make it exclusively about being with your family, and abandon the Santa / commercial aspects if you wish. Decorate the house, talk about Santa and Reindeer, and give small or home-made presents if you prefer that. Or explain to your kids that many if not most Christians celebrate the holiday for their own religious reasons, but that you prefer to see it as a time to celebrate the family bond.

Do whatever you want. Don't go out of your way to rub it in anyone's noses, and don't give a second thought to anyone that might tell you that you are somehow perverting or desecrating the "true spirit" of the holiday if they see that your house decorations are conspicuously missing a nativity, or that your list of preferred carols replaces "Silent Night" with "Frosty the Snowman".

Amber called her uncle, said "We're up here for the holiday,
Jane and I were having Solstice, now we need a place to stay."
And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree,
He watched his son hang candy canes all made with red dye number three.
He told his niece, "It's Christmas Eve, I know our life is not your style,"
She said, "Christmas is like Solstice, and we miss you and its been awhile,"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that you're a witch?"
His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen,
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "It's true, your cousin's not a Christian,"
"But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And where does magic come from? I think magic's in the learning,
'Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans only pumpkin pies are burning.

When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, "Really, no, don't bother."
Amber's uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father.
He thought about his brother, how they hadn't spoken in a year,
He thought he'd call him up and say, "It's Christmas and your daughter's here."
He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, saw his own son tug his sleeve, saying,
"Can I be a Pagan?" Dad said, "We'll discuss it when they leave."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old, and
Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

@Hive13 says it... it's NOT THEIR FRICKEN HOLIDAY. This bullshit of 'Christmas is because of the birth of Christ' is utter, utter rubbish. The bible makes NO MENTION AT ALL as to the date of the birth of Jesus, it's a Pagan festival, f*ck off Christians with your f*cking holier than though attitude, and the 'meaning of Christmas'. F*ck you whole fricken heartedly.

I LOVE Christmas, it is my favourite time of year. The decorations, the music, the food, the gatherings with family. The magic of Santa with the kids... It is a truly wonderful time. And anyone should be more than free to attach whatever importance they want to the period. And Christians can bugger off with this 'It's our holiday, and if you're celebrating it, then you are celebrating the birth of Jesus'. No we're not, we're celebrating the MUCH more important things of Family, Friends, Joy, Peace, and all round good will.

THAT is what christmas should be about, Peace on Earth and Good Will to All Men. No religion, no preaching, just happiness and magic.

I have to disagree that these types of adds are "mocking religion" in any way. It is only Christians that would see them as "mocking".

Also, Christians claiming that this is THEIR holiday is just stupid. It is everyone's holiday season. Jews, Pagans, Christians ancient Germans and every other recent society had a "winter solstice" celebration. What Christians fail to realize is that what they know as Christmas was just a stolen Pagan tradition that was adopted over time as a local custom. Slap a Jesus myth over the top of it and now they think they own it. Balderdash!

Some comments:

1) "Idolators" really doesn't refer to followers of Judaism or Christians. Idolatry was outlawed in the Ten Commandments. That being said, there's a whole lotta bowin' and genuflectin' in the Roman Catholic Church. Still, that's NOT what was meant by 'idolators'. It referred to the pagan/animistic precursors of Islam, and it called for a zero tolerance policy toward those who were not 'people of the book'. So effective was this that there really are none around today.

2) If I read him right, he's calling for Crusade. I mean, all those guys were fighting defensive wars, and they managed to drive the Muslim invasion away from their doorsteps. However, the reason WHY they were fighting in Vienna and Constantinople and Lepanto was that Charles Martel stopped them at Tours, then let them walk away--keep all of Spain, in fact. Now all this seems to ignore that there was a whole lot of tit-for-tat fighting going on. They'd attack Christian Europe, and Christian Europe would attack them right back. In almost all cases, the conflict was couched in a religious context, but was really more of a geopolitical struggle. The only thing that could stop this struggle is the aforementioned Crusade, except this one would end with two significant cities in the Arabian Peninsula wiped off the map. The thing is--he tells us what might help, but he doesn't for a moment suggest what we could do in the modern context. This is the worst kind of 'expert'--someone who will freely share all the problems, and say that the solutions are quite apparent, and then fail to share what those solutions might be.

3) I've had several students over the years (I taught high school) actively try to convert me to Islam. I'd listen to them, because it was something about which they were passionate, and you never want to dampen their spirits. I would then pull out a map, and show them the growth of Islam. I'd ask them how it got from Mecca to Tours in 100 years. Inevitably they'd come up with some wonderful fairy tale about how people would hear the words of the Prophet, and convert on the spot. I then pointed out that they pretty much cut their way across North Africa, and swept into Spain, and if not for Charles Martel, Christianity might have been wiped off the earth. Did they think that Martel was the first person to say, "No, thanks?" This usually made them quite uncomfortable, because what followed that period was a time of (relative) peace in an area not known for its stability. "How many people honestly and openly chose Islam, do you think?" Again, they'd get uncomfortable. Is Islam all about peace? Sure it is--as long as Islam is on top. But that's pretty much the story with Christianity, right? That's the source of all this talk about America being a "Christian" nation. It seems to have little to do with actual tenets of faith, and everything to do with BRAND IDENTITY.

The real question, then, is this: How many modern Muslims are willing to go back to the old way of doing things? Damn few, it turns out. That's what this whole "perversion" thing is about. Those who would ignore EVERYTHING the modern world offers and KILL PEOPLE to get it are, in fact, very few in numbers, but the fruits of this modern world allow small groups of determined people to unleash mayhem. People like that can be found in every faith, political party, and ideology. The idea that their way might not be the right way scares the hell out of them, and they'd do anything to feel absolutely sure. How do we fight this? How have we ever fought ignorance? Knowledge and time. Crusade never works.

Here's another math thing that my brother, WHO HAS A MASTERS DEGREE IN AERONAUTICAL ENGINEERING, said to me recently....

Background: He's Mormon. Mormons believe that God has a physical body (like Pagans, but I didn't tell him that.) Man is made in the image of God and will be reconstituted into his physical body eventually.

Okay.

Fibonnoci sequence. 1 + 1= 2. 1+2=3. 2+3=5.

My bro said this "only works in base ten" and wiggled his fingers at me. As if this proved that God indeed made the universe and Man is the most important being in it.

Just shoot me.

USC. Masters Degree. Pilot in the Air Force for years. Smart guy.

Just shoot me.

Man I F*CKING LOVE how Christians try to say 'Hey, the TRUE meaning of Christmas is Jesus being born'

F*cking hell they are misguided, they all need to read something like The Origin of Christmas

* NOWHERE in the bible does it say when Jesus was born
* It's a appropriation of a Roman Pagan festival of lawlessness that ran for the week leading to the 25th of Dec. And that involved publicly murdering someone.

I fricken LOVE Christmas, but for what it has become, not for what they think it means.

It's a time to be surrounded by beautiful decorations, wonderful music (I enjoy Christian carols even as I don't like their lyrics), family, wonder for the kids, and the excitement of Santa Clause, and feasting. It's just a fricken beautiful time of year that does not need bloody Christians trying to suggest that THEY created it for THEIR messiah.

Having said that... I don't really mind a nativity being on display, as long as non christian displays are allowed too.

Good sir, it was published before I could properly thank you for the promote.

Therefore, thank you and thank you again.

Close....
In reply to this comment by enoch:
*promote!

>> ^RFlagg:

I sometimes wonder who would get elected first to a major national office, a Pagan or an Atheist?


Definitely pagan.

I sometimes wonder who would get elected first to a major national office, a Pagan or an Atheist?