Is this supposed to have anything to do with the conversation we'd been having over cap & trade?

Does it matter that I'm against farm subsidies? Does it matter that the general view on the left is that our farm subsidies suck? I suppose it never does.

This is pretty lazy and sloppy reasoning, and the right engages in it all the time. They seem to think that if they point out something dumb the government does, this validates their political preferences.

Hey, did you know corporations do evil and stupid stuff on a regular basis? Remember way back when BP skirted safety procedures, and it led to an oil spill that leaked millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf each day for three months?

No? It's a shame, seems like that would totally validate my way of looking at things...

No. You can prove they pissed in your water. That's ample. If someone is dumping pollutants into that water, you could also prove that and seek damages. Same with pollutants in the air. You always have to mitigate damages. Let's be reasonable, please.

Then why can't I say "all carbon emissions beyond a certain amount cause damage", and then set up a system of permits for emissions that are sold at auction (and tradeable thereafter), and then charge people who emit more carbon than they have permits for with theft (or vandalism or reckless endangerment, etc.)?

That's cap & trade in a nutshell.

Speculation. A cost-effective way to discredit environmental movements is to pick on Gore? And, is it just insidious right-wing political groups? Maybe draw a dastardly twisty mustache on these shadowy groups while you're at it. The founder of the weather channel is evil! Kill him with fire!

Dude, you're the one who brought up Al Gore's legal situation into a conversation about the environment. Clearly you thought that was germane somehow. I don't, but it's a totally standard political tactic to engage in ad hominem attacks like that.

It's such a well-worn tactic that it's become running gag on left-wing blogs to title any link to a news story about the effects of global warming "Al Gore is Fat."

Oh, and before I forget, here's another lawsuit I would expect a libertarian to endorse: the Pakistani people filing a class-action lawsuit against every major energy company for the damages caused by their recent flooding.

Another: Russia does a class-action lawsuit against every major energy company for the damages caused by their outbreak of wildfires.

A final thought, all the wildlife killed by the BP oil spill, who's got standing to sue for damages for them? For that matter, what's the settlement value for a Brown Pelican or a sea turtle? What if some species was made extinct by it?

In reply to this comment by blankfist:

>> ^TangledThorns:

For you ignorant Palin haters this video was posted by the same Shannyn Moore who lied that Sarah Palin was being investigated by the FBI last year. Good for Sarah Palin for speaking politely to the protester who was actually quite rude to Sarah.
When will the Left and America understand that Sarah Palin will make a brilliant leader for our country? Seriously, Obama is the worst president since Carter.

>> ^TangledThorns:


The Obama WH is has shown nothing but failure this past Summer. From a out of control oil spill, firing a general during war time, and now firing a woman who shouldn't of been. Just shows that America elected a very inexperienced person for the job.



heh..hehehahah....hahaha..HAH...hahahahahahahahaha hah, ahhhhh.

aren't contradictions funny?

It is a commentary on his lack of experience...

Sure Winstonfield, sure.

In the last 18 months these RADICALS...

Have you ever considered that you are the radical (or reactionary)? Is it possible that paranoid gubmint hating god fearing folks are the nutjobs? Any objective view Obama suggests he is still very much right of center, even if it doesn't fit into your worldview. It takes a certain kind of true-believer to suggest Obama is nearing communist territory - and a healthy disregard for political scaling or measurement. Ask anyone who isn't a partisan or teabagger. Better yet, ask anyone from a different country. They'll tell you. Hyperbole is so much more fun though, right?

doubling down on leftist economics, europe in shambles, right-wing economics to the rescue

Even Britain's Conservatives are wild-eyed radicals in your mind. Federal money for kid's hospices? Communist!!!

Please...
Lousy polling?

45.7% after a months-long oil spill....this man is clearly hated by the country and 'Real Americans'TM are clearly lined up against him.

I guess in your mind the following numbers are proof positive of a complete outrage on behalf of 'Real Americans'TM? Or does this suggest that maybe Americans enjoy government intervention?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/140981/Verdict-Healthcare-Reform-Bill-Divided.aspx

And what's this? Majority of Americans support the creation of a public option? Heresy!

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/archives/185853.asp

I can't tell if you really believe all this, or just like to fuck with people. I don't know which scenario I dislike more.
>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

gotta love the understated racism (man-child)
Incorrect. It is a commentary on his lack of experience, his spoiled & selfish behavior, and his general lack of any ability to actually deal with opposing ideas with any degree of maturity. But false accusations of racism when faced with opposition is a tradition on the left - as we've seen all too often lately.
the hyperbole (radicals)
In the last 18 months these radicals have implemented a plan to ration health care, quadrupled the national debt, established huge unconstitutional increases in federal power over finance and other industries - all against the will of the people. Bailouts, industry takeovers, tax increases, cap & tax, amnesty, health care reform, and on and on and on - all things solidly opposed by a 2/3 majority of the people (or higher). This administration and congress is the most left-wing, radical, out of step clot of extremists that this nation has ever seen in positions of power. The only people that 'like' what they're doing is the 25-30% or so of the country that occupies the far left. Conservatives, Repubicans, and Independents are roundly rejecting everything these radicals are doing - and they make up 65-70% of America.
the blanket portrayals of Europeans as poverty-stricken communists
While Obama & the other radicals are doubling down with leftist economics - Europe is doing the opposite. Greece, Italy, Spain, Britain, Germany - day after day the stories pile up about how they are turning to 'privitization' in order to save themselves from fiscal disasters. It isn't that they're poverty-stricken communists. It is that they have followed the misguided principles of leftist economics, and now they turning to capitalism to pull themselves out of the hole... All while the Man-Child is doing the opposite and putting American further in debt in a time of economic turmoil & trouble. Says something, don't it?
And the rhetorical attacks on Obama (how's his polling these days?
Pretty lousy - actually...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_ob
ama_job_approval-1044.html
Isn't there majority support for Health Care reform? Isn't there still majority support for a Public Option?
In NeoLib-Lala-Land maybe, but not on planet Earth. The only thing there is 'majority support' for is for repealing the bill.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_conten
t/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20010453-503544.html
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/2
8/poll-finds-low-enthusiasm-high-skepticism-for-health-care-overh/
Folks on the left need to learn a lesson quickly. YOU ARE THE FRINGE. The left likes to walk around thinking they are mainstream and popular. You aren't. Leftist policy and philosophy is radical and unpopular. And when you try to ram it down people's throats it makes you even more radical and unpopular. Leftism isn't compassion. It is cruel. Leftism doesn't lead to prosperity or tolerance. It leads to poverty and balkanization.

Sounds like someone is attempting to shift blame from the myriad of other problems. I can understand looking into this to see how it could have been handled better, but blaming anyone for possibly damaging/sinking a burning structure....and one that is so fully engulfed in flames that multiple boats aren't able to extinguish it in the process.....is nuts. Unless those people got on board this oil rig and started the fire in the first place, I don't see the point of trying to shift attention onto their efforts to put it out as a bad thing.

The alternative to let it burn itself out would have resulted and just as likely may have resulted in this rig sinking due to temperatures causing metals to fatigue/warp and other things just simply explode from having massive temperature changes due to the fueled fire taking place on much cooler water.

The only thing this investigation could possibly benefit from is that it may allow them to stand a chance to extinguish fires like this in the future, but it looks to me like there's a bit of a campaign here going to try to blame the Coast Guard for BPs failures to take the time to properly close off a well resulting in much more than just a burned up rig but the deaths of people, and the resulting oil spill killing off countless wildlife and creating potential (more likely than not in my opinion) long term health problems for everyone exposed.

And there is the underlying problem of the government regulations being too lax when it comes to oil drilling where as other countries require relief wells to be in place before disaster strikes. Non-existent oversight.......no requirement for oil cleanup R&D.......just a policy of make as much money as you can off government contracts and hope nothing goes wrong so people won't look at hard at all of us.

The coast guard is featured in a much better light on shows like "The Biggest Catch" where a boat has catastrophic failures and these guys have to go out to save their asses from a fiery, freezing, drowning, etc death. Or when they have their specials and show the coast guard and such rescuing people from rooftops after hurricane Katrina and developing new techniques on the spot to be taught as part of the training after it's all over.

Blaming the coast guard is just an attempt to shift blame off BP and regulations committees/politicians in bed with them. It's akin to blaming the police department for 9/11 or the fire department for being unable to deal with large radioactive contamination. Who expects some crazy bastards to create the conditions for catastrophic failures and not let anyone know what the hell they did before it's too late to act on it? Some do, but you'll run out of funds trying to prepare for everything and you'll go crazy trying to predict them all. So you do the best you can and punish the people who CAUSED the problem, not the people who were unawares of it until it's exploding in their face. That's just ass backwards.

Wow, wth is going on in that CGI?

Translation:

Sarah Palin plans to run for President in 2012. In 2008, Republican presidential nominee Biden selects Palin to be his sidekick. At the time, very few people knew who she was. When the two lost the election, they parted ways, but Palin became the conservative party's hottie queen and rapidly gained popularity.

A <sarcasm> creditworthy news channel </sarcasm> invited her as a celebrity spokesperson to discuss various debated issues such as the BP Gulf oil spill.

Her family life had also come under public scrutiny. Rumors suggest that her daughter is following in her father's footsteps (?) and will be starring in a reality TV show.

Some people are concerned that she lacks experience but she is confident that she has a strong grasp of national policies.

As she grew in fame, Palin also worked to influence the local politics of New York City. She also invented new vocabulary and compared herself to Shakespeare.

This year, her political action committee, SarahPAC, has already fundraised $1.3 million USD. Such an aggressive act to raise funds has lead people to suspect whether she will be squaring off with Obama during the presidential election of 2012. If Palin is elected, it will represent the American people's willingness to defend conservative principles and "refudiate" Obama.

They fired her without any kind of investigation. Even though Sherrod is a die hard liberal Obama supporter she should still sue.

The Obama WH is has shown nothing but failure this past Summer. From a out of control oil spill, firing a general during war time, and now firing a woman who shouldn't of been. Just shows that America elected a very inexperienced person for the job.

>> ^Mcboinkens:

Oh, even better. This video isn't even of the Gulf oil spill. It's from a movie called "Petropolis" that was released in 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFT3bZtnok&feature=channel

Look familiar? Overlap starts at 0:27. December 2009 upload date. Get this fake video out of here.


Wish I could take my vote back now...

>> ^Mcboinkens:

>> ^Duckman33:
>> ^Mcboinkens:
>> ^ToastyBuffoon:
Everyday, to and from work, I pass 3 BP gas stations. I shake my head at the people who continue to patronage and support such a company. I realize that they say most BP gas stations are independently owned, but that isn't my fault. I refuse to line the pockets of the higher ups in the company by giving my business to them. I will never fill up at a BP station again, even once this tragic disaster is contained. It will take years beyond my lifetime for the gulf to fully recover from this event, if that is even possible.

A mistake a lot of people make is thinking that BP stations have BP gas, Shell has Shell gas, Conoco has Conoco, etc. In reality, they just buy whatever gas is easiest and cheapest to obtain and sell it under the companies logo at the station.

Actually I don't think that's correct. I know a trucker who hauls gas to gas stations for a living and he said that certain gas goes to certain stations due to the make up of it. Cheveron gas has Techron additive in it for instance and would not be sold at a Texaco gas station because they use their own additives, etc. He could be wrong, I don't know that's just what he was telling me.


Looked it up, looks like your friend and I are both right to some extent. Seems like it depends on the location of the station, which makes sense.

Source: http://www.cyclelicio.us/2010/does-bp-gas-really-come-from-bp/


Nice! Thanks for the info. Now I don't feel so bad when I buy gas from AM/PM thinking it's cheaply made gas.

[redacted]

>> ^Mcboinkens:

>> ^ToastyBuffoon:
Everyday, to and from work, I pass 3 BP gas stations. I shake my head at the people who continue to patronage and support such a company. I realize that they say most BP gas stations are independently owned, but that isn't my fault. I refuse to line the pockets of the higher ups in the company by giving my business to them. I will never fill up at a BP station again, even once this tragic disaster is contained. It will take years beyond my lifetime for the gulf to fully recover from this event, if that is even possible.


A mistake a lot of people make is thinking that BP stations have BP gas, Shell has Shell gas, Conoco has Conoco, etc. In reality, they just buy whatever gas is easiest and cheapest to obtain and sell it under the companies logo at the station.


Actually I don't think that's correct. I know a trucker who hauls gas to gas stations for a living and he said that certain gas goes to certain stations due to the make up of it. Cheveron gas has Techron additive in it for instance and would not be sold at a Texaco gas station because they use their own additives, etc. He could be wrong, I don't know that's just what he was telling me.

>> ^Mcboinkens:

>> ^ToastyBuffoon:
Everyday, to and from work, I pass 3 BP gas stations. I shake my head at the people who continue to patronage and support such a company. I realize that they say most BP gas stations are independently owned, but that isn't my fault. I refuse to line the pockets of the higher ups in the company by giving my business to them. I will never fill up at a BP station again, even once this tragic disaster is contained. It will take years beyond my lifetime for the gulf to fully recover from this event, if that is even possible.


That's not ignorant at all. Just kidding, it is.
All you are doing is screwing over families that really have nothing to do with BP at all, they just have a store under its name. That's no worse than the people down on the gulf who lost their jobs due to another kind of ignorance. It is even worse because you acknowledge that you know they are independently operated. Those gas stations hardly make enough to get by normally, let alone with boycotts.
Furthermore, BP makes most of its money refining and selling oil to ALL gas stations, since they are, as I said before, independently owned. A mistake a lot of people make is thinking that BP stations have BP gas, Shell has Shell gas, Conoco has Conoco, etc. In reality, they just buy whatever gas is easiest and cheapest to obtain and sell it under the companies logo at the station.


Ethical protest strategy is actually really complex and hard. Which is great for the corporations, cause it means it's hard to get people together in a strategy.

[redacted]

[redacted]

>> ^chilaxe:

Has Nader taken responsibility yet for being such a negative influence on liberalism? A lot of people will have been affected by the Iraq war, justices Roberts and Alito for the next 30 years, and the worst oil spill in US history.


In other words, "shut up and do as you're told."

Laying the blame for those things at Nader's feet is a pretty loathsome act.

Nader represents a lot of leftists, like myself, who are continuously marginalized and belittled by those "sensible" mainstream liberals who are "just being realistic."

"Just being sensible" like almost all of the Democrats we have in office now, who still can't get anything done even with the sizable majority voters gave them two years ago.

You Democrats...you want my vote, you want my support, but then you want me to just shut up and go away.

I've had it.