@ChaosEngine:
"The first 3 levels of sexual violence ALL involve no physical contact and are entirely verbal. "
100% fine with this. You can be a creepy sleazebag without touching someone and it's still not ok.

Perhaps you misunderstand. I also oppose verbal harassment and discrimination. I disagree with calling sexist and racist comments acts of violence. I agree with condemning them and acting to stop them.

Real world example, a Canadian student TA at Wilfred Laurier University played a short clip of a publicly broadcast debate over trans pronoun usage between 2 U of T professors in a class. She was brought into a meeting with 3 WLU staff who told her she was horribly wrong for doing so because playing that clip was "an act of violence" against any trans students in the room.

This abuse of language is manipulative and wrong.

I'm a man, and I'm not scared of being accused of sexual assault. None of my male friends are scared either.

With burden of proof I'm thinking beyond merely sexual assault. This already practice in forms in Canada. Ontario has an entire system of Social Justice Tribunals that run parallel to the criminal court system. It's been a gradual transformation of the civil court system, so civil and family courts are lumped in as tribunals now there. The specific one relevant in this case is the human rights tribunal. If the WLU faculty, or a student from the classroom, wanted to file a human rights complaint for the 'violence' they faced, the burden of proof would be a preponderance of the evidence rather than innocent until proven guilty. Which I can even understand in some cases, but lets not say that doesn't make people nervous about being falsely accused. That is not what scares people the most though in Ontario. The social justice tribunals have paid for legal representation for the accusers, and so the government foots the financial costs for the accuser. The accused however is on their own. The erosion of burden of proof and fear of financial damages from malicious or vengeful complaints is a very, very real thing in Canada. Accusations of sexual harassment being just one of many kinds of accusations that you can be damaged by while entirely innocent.

Lots of good comments here... this might take a while so bear with me.

@Mordhaus, I haven't read that book but I'd be interested to see his sources. Everything I've googled suggests the rate is really low.

As for Ford, obviously, I can't say for certain whether she is telling the truth. She may even believe she is telling the truth and still be wrong. I think she was entitled to the benefit of the doubt in terms of an investigation. Of course, it's possible she was doing this for political reasons, but that feels like a stretch to me.

@bcglorf
In some ways, I can understand the desire to remove the vexatious complaints cause. Coming forward with a report of sexual assault is traumatic enough already.
A) you may not be believed
B) even if you are, you're in for an experience many assault survivors have described as "being raped a second time"
If you add the possibility that your complaint could potentially get you sanctioned if no one believes you, that's a pretty awful situation to be in.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with this stance, but I can understand it. I think you would need to clear a very high bar to prove a complaint is malicious. Presumption of innocence applies to the complainant also.

"The first 3 levels of sexual violence ALL involve no physical contact and are entirely verbal. "
100% fine with this. You can be a creepy sleazebag without touching someone and it's still not ok.

"lots of people are very much arguing that lives should be destroyed then and there"
Sorry, I just don't see it. That said, if there are people arguing for that... I'm against them.

"We'll even right songs to laugh at them when they complain."
This song was mocking the bullshit "it's a scary time to be a man" line, and deservedly so. I'm a man, and I'm not scared of being accused of sexual assault. None of my male friends are scared either. But it fucking crushes my soul to think of how many of the women in my life have ACTUALLY experienced some form of sexual assault (and that's just the ones I know of).

@scheherazade
Completely agree that eyewitness testimony is borderline useless in terms of evidence. Go back through my comment history... you'll see I even said I doubt you could prove Kavanaugh's guilt. All I've ever said is that it warrants an investigation. (sidenote: I totally agree with @vil and @Mordhaus on this... polygraphs are junk science, but Kavanaugh's boorish behaviour should have been grounds not to confirm him).

Regarding your friend that was raped by a girl: that's awful, and yes, we really have to stop this childish attitude of somehow thinking female on male rape is either funny or that the guy was lucky. But it is unrelated to this discussion.

@MilkmanDan, I pretty much agree with everything you've said.

Being falsely accused of rape would be terrible, even if you weren't convicted. No disagreement there at all.

@bareboards2
yeah.i do not understand why he was hanging around while she talked shit.

it appears he may have messed her stuff up,and was looking for something that may have dropped.

we really do not know though.could be anything.could be he gave her boobs a goose for all we know.

we DO know that she was verbally abusing him.

i know i would have walked away.i have encountered women like this all through my life.apologizing just gets you a litany of new insults,and as long as you remain in their vicinity...the insults will only continue and get even more derogatory.

walking away is the best policy.

the majority of times that sufficed to appease their inner rage demon.maybe they would throw a few zingers at my back,but i never really gave a shit.more power to her..they are just words flying out of an entitled little girl who cant behave like an adult.

but...

on a few occasions.
the girl would follow right behind me,and continue to berate and harass me.possibly seeing my retreat as a sign of weakness.i really dont know.what i DO know,is that is a blatant sign of stupidity to take your 5"3" 110lb ass and try to jam it into my face as if you were rhonda rousey.

i have never hit a woman.
but i will not allow a woman to put her hands on me,especially when she has been verbally abusive and aggressive with me.

so the girls who have thought it totally ok to escalate the situation with physical violence,i have always responded in the same fashion: they get one shot.ONE.and then i whip around (and guys who have gotten into fights understand this) and in the most threatening and physically imposing manner,plainly let her know "ok thats ONE.go ahead and hit me again.i fucking DARE you.go ahead and hit me again and see what happens.because if you hit me again you are taking the place of a man,and AS a man i will knock you the fuck out".

i actually learned that from my dad.
one of the kindest and most gentle people you will have ever met,but his advice worked like a charm.

can you guess how many of those girls went for hit # 2?

thats right...none.

ya know.people get angry.
people can misunderstand a situation and react angrily.
humans will encounter conflict throughout our lives,and it is a testament to wisdom,intelligence and patience how we deal with those conflicts.

and there is never a time where it is ok to put your hands on another person,except for in self-defense.

so when a woman puts her hands on a man.
i dont care what level the rage meter is at,she should never put her hands on him.

for a few reasons:
1.its wrong.
2.you dont get a free pass because you own a uterus.
3.violence is never the proper choice for conflict resolution.
4.and most important.would you ever in your life walk up to a grizzly bear with a stick and start poking him? would you cry and whine about the unfairness of it all when that bear rips your face off?

use a little common sense and everything will be fine.

and did ya'all catch this womans glee?
the mere idea of her male friends killing this dude made her flush with excitement.that is a tad disturbing,but expected with such low quality females such as these.

experienced a bunch of women in that category as well.

but thats a story for another day.

simply put:this woman escalated the situation by making it physical and got popped in the mouth.
and thats all it was..a pop.
got her attention though didnt it?

so advice to all my lady friends here on the sift.
you have a right to your anger,your outrage and your indignation.
you do NOT have the right to be hitting,smacking or punching guys willy nilly without consequences.

and while i agree with BB (and others) that the dude should have just walked away,i will not put that responsibility solely on him.how is it HIS responsibility to control this womans actions.she hit.she got popped.
end of story.

All this dudes male friends; "haha...gaaayyyyyyyy"

I tried to read the article -- I'll try again later.

Seems like same old, same old to me.

Look, I agree with you that it is pretty stupid that women are held up as being better than men. It is really stupid that men are insulted by being defined by their lowest common denominator or by some superficial stereotype.

When I was in my 20s, which was a long time ago, I would hear things like -- if women were in charge of the world, we wouldn't have wars. Bullshit. Women are just as capable of being territorial and selfish as any man. And men being stupid about their emotions, and walled off? It was clear to me that they were victims of emotional terrorism from men, boys, women and girls, who put enormous pressure on them to "be men." Whatever the fuck that means.

But to constantly throw everything into the pot and expect every single video about women to include the pressures on men is not helping. I'm glad to hear that you acknowledge being "triggered" -- which to me is an emotional response out of scale with the current situation. I'm glad you know that.

Maybe if you could channel that energy into specifics, instead of broadsides. Instead of challenging women's right to talk about themselves and their experiences, why not challenge the part of the videos that do the denigration towards men? I try very hard not to denigrate men, and I fall into it way way way too easy. (A source of shame for me.) A woman makes a crack about men being stupid? Jump on it! Say it is bullshit. Say you don't like it when we do it to you. OPEN OUR EYES TO OUR OWN BULLSHIT.

But that isn't going to happen when a woman is talking about her own experience and you jump in and muddle things by bringing up men and their challenges. That is where the "make your own video" comes from. Men aren't the topic right now. Women are the topic. And fuck yeah, we are victims. And we need to learn how not to be. Which is what this (flawed) video was trying to do.

The thing is, men are victims too. They just never talk about it. Why is that?

I absolutely agree with you that men have enormous pressures on them. I have two male friends who have talked at length about the experience of growing up male and not fitting the stereotype (and it is a stereotype), and what they suffered as they tried to make their own lives despite those pressures. Both of them were perceived as "weak". And now they are some of the best people on the planet because they had the courage to stay true to themselves.

I just beg of you to keep these topics separate.

Let women talk about their issues.

If you can find videos where men talk about their issues, post them.

If you find something in a video where men are denigrated, speak up about that specific piece of it.

It godawful tiring trying to change the world, isn't it?

(And maybe as you stick up for men in specific instances, you might grow some insight into the challenges faced by women. Maybe gain some sympathy as you attempt to help women have some sympathy towards men.)

Very good point. I know many females who participate in online gaming or forums who choose neutral or masculine names and avatars so they are treated equally.

I also have many male friends who create female alter egos to get special treatment online - hand holding, gifts and ESPECIALLY an army of White Nights.

I have NEVER understood the compulsion to eat painfully spicy food. I don't think I have a male friend who hasn't tried something similar, always resulting in varying degrees of horrible.

My favorite part of Shawshank isn't any one part, but it is the "love" story between 2 male friends, without a female love interest or it being gay. Not a story that gets told very often.

I know this is long and off topic. I found it linked on a male friend's facebook page and found it interesting.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-be
ing-maced/

I thought the combo of sex and science and violence might pique your interest, too.

This is NOT related to our previous exchange, except in the general sense of how it is different to be a man in our society versus a woman.

Why can't everyone be cool about things, like me and my other white, middle class hetero male friends, who point fingers at minority groups on the internet?

Thanks for reading that long long loooooong post. It certainly came from my heart!

I didn't see the comment stream as "backlash." I fully expected it. This is what humans do, it seems -- lash out, misinterpret, cherry pick one sentence and analyze it to death out of context, extrapolate, and build themselves up into fake and real outrage. Happens all the time on comment streams of longer length.

I include myself in that description, but I am trying to wean myself from doing that. It isn't productive. I know I am not 100% successful, but I do it less than I used to. I'm still learning to recognize the behavior in myself. I have learned a lot from being on the Sift.

And I think you are right -- this place is mostly guys and I don't care how old they are, the kid is still inside there and he wants to play. Women have been called a "civilizing" influence -- I prefer that idea to the negativity of the idea of Political Correctness -- and the guys are absolutely right. It sucks the spontaneous fun of reacting in the moment.

I think the best example of that is that horrible C Punch vid that Lasurus posted. http://videosift.com/video/CUNt-PUNCH

The first comment. Now that is honesty -- he knows there is something distasteful about this vid and he finds it funny. I say good on him for just telling truth.

I always bring up Louis CK as a perfect example of the lie that is Political Correctness. Here's a guy who has said some of the most objectively offensive things I have ever heard, but I am never offended. Why? Because he tells the truth. Always. If he finds something that is objectively speaking distasteful, he says -- man, this is gross and I like it anyway. It is the bone deep honesty of it that steps him back from the edge.

AND. It is tiring to keep that up when all you want to do is watch videos and react, though. I get it.

I was very interested in how you reacted to the C punch vid (with the title that offended me.) I have a couple of fantastic male friends who are not the "normal" kind of guy. Heterosexual but gentle. To hear their tales of being bullied and abused, of their struggles to find their way to be themselves in our culture that is so abusive towards its men, that only allows one image for what it means to be masculine.... it's enough to break your heart. I heard echos of that in your post. I know you say that you felt protective towards women -- well, I may be projecting my friends' experience, I may be off base, but I heard echos of my male friends' struggles in your outrage.

I know that this place is mostly male. I come here because of the science (there used to be more, but there is still some), and the smarts, and the generally progressive attitudes, and dft and blankfist having the same argument over and over again.

I believe it is inappropriate for me to "squash" the boyish fun -- if this were a predominantly female site, the men would be expected to respect the culture of that site.

But they also aren't here alone. And that first poster on lasurus' linked vid KNEW it wasn't appropriate, that a line had been crossed.

Blah blah blah.

I am going to the new Pirates movie now. (Saw Thor last night -- man, was that stupid. But then, I don't know the comics, so maybe it was actually very good. I had no reference. I did recognize Stan Lee though....)



In reply to this comment by spoco2:
Very nice post

I had a male friend years ago whose hands had been spotted somehow, and he was asked to come in for a photo shoot.

He did gardening without gloves the day before.

The agent just looked at him and said something like -- you don't want success, do you?

I would find being around this woman annoying, however, she is making a good living. I just hope she has a life outside of protecting her hands.

>> ^Throbbin:
I have very little respect for women who walk around looking like Trollops. I met my spouse in college, and her roommate would wear layer upon layer of foundation - so much so she looked like a wax statue. Then the copious amounts of black eye shadow, bright red lipstick, and then spray herself with a cloud of cheap perfume.
Needless to say, it was nasty. One wonders why they do this - do they think it'll help them get ahead? Nymphomania? Low self-esteem? Were they taught this by their mothers? Sisters? Television?
When I'm walking around a mall, I see these types of women around - the kind that see you, size you up, make eye contact, and then get insulted when you don't shower them with attention. When this happens, if I have a male friend nearby, I usually tap my buddy on the shoulder, point at them, and laugh so that they can see me.
May not be nice, but I figure it's good for them in the long run.



Comercial society translates well with the average, low self esteem woman. Have you seen American Beauty? "At least I'm not average!" "Yes, yes you are." Paraphrase...