>> ^hpqp:

So let me paraphrase:
Derp: "Hey herp, stop protecting your kid, I want to torture it, kill its friends and make it hate you for abandoning it."
Herp: "Sure, torture away!"
Million dollar question: is Herp a moral person/being?
Bonus question: if Herp is all-powerful, what is he protecting his kid from in the first place?


I agree 100% with what you wrote here. The Book of Job presents a major contradiction to the idea of a benevolent, omniscient God. Which is why I think Dan Barker majorly dropped the ball here on what should have been a slam dunk.

>> ^hpqp:

But the whole point here is that the religious mindset causes an otherwise moral person (they all agreed the first scenario was wrong) to condone an immoral action if it was for religious reasons. Case in point: suicide and murder in Islam, both major "sins", are seen as okay if part of Jihad.


See, if this was Dan Barker's point, I think he screwed it up royally. He's comparing apples and oranges. I can do the same thing he did and get the same results with a completely non-religious issue:

Let's say someone breaks in a family's home in the middle of the night and terrorizes them--holds them at gunpoint, ties them up, and tortures them (similar to the original example). After having his way with them for some time, the criminal starts to kill each family member in front of the others, starting with the kids. After killing the wife, the criminal is about to kill the husband when the husband is able to break free of his bindings. A struggle ensues and the husband overcomes the criminal and ties the criminal up.

Now, remember, the criminal is secure. The husband makes sure the binds are tight and the criminal can't go anywhere. Instead of calling the police, though, the husband picks up the criminal's gun and shoots the criminal right in the head, instantly killing him. Is the husband a murderer?

I think you would find a majority of people who say yes.

The criminal was subdued and no longer a threat. In the American legal system, the husband would most likely be found guilty of second degree murder or manslaughter. It was clearly a revenge killing and the only thing in question really is the mental state of the husband at the time it takes place: was he upset enough that it was manslaughter or did he do it in cold blood?

Now, let's change the scenario slightly. The husband never breaks free. The criminal gleefully and cruelly kills him. After fleeing from the scene of the crime, the criminal later is captured by police and put on trial for his crimes. He's found guilty on all counts due to overwhelming evidence and is sentenced to death. After a lengthy appeals process that takes over a decade, the death sentence is carried out by the state.

Question: Is the state guilty of murder?

You will find that far fewer people are willing to say that the state is guilty of murder. But why don't they? Isn't it the same situation? The criminal is just as guilty of the crimes in either case--the trial just made the guilt official. The criminal has been apprehended and is secure in prison. Surrounded by thick walls, steel bars, and armed guards, he no longer represents a threat to the public. At his execution he is tied down and given a lethal injection (which is dissimilar from being tied up and shot in the head really only in the amount mess that needs to be cleaned up afterwards).

So what's different? What's "clouding the moral judgment" of the people who declare the husband guilty of murder but won't declare the state guilty of murder? Aren't they contradicting themselves?

No, not really. The answer is simply that people attribute different rights to people than they do to government. Almost any basic definition of government requires that government be authorized to use force to obtain compliance from the governed (see Weber's theory)--up too and including lethal force. People who don't believe the state to be guilty of murder believe the state has the right to deprive those who commit serious enough crimes of their life (for a variety of stated reasons such as discouraging other criminals, providing justice for the victims, etc.). An individual, on the other hand, does not have such a right. In other words, it's immoral for the individual to redress the wrong themselves, but it isn't immoral for the state to do so, according to death penalty proponents, on the basis of individual and governmental rights.

(For the record, I am strongly opposed to the death penalty. If you're interested in my reasons, please ask me on my profile rather than derail this thread).

And that is why Dan got the audience response he did. People agree that a human butchering another human is immoral, but ascribe a different set of rights to the Biblical God. In particular, in the more conservative Christian traditions, humans are seen as "belonging" to the Biblical God and to be done with as He pleases.

So I wasn't surprised at all at the response that Dan Barker got. He compared apples and oranges and then seemed surprise when people weren't willing to claim an apple was an orange. Given how ripe the Book of Job is for criticizing many of the basic tenets of Christian belief, I kind of face-palmed when I heard his argument. He had a great chance here to make some keen points (the ones @hpqp raised above) and he completely missed it, I think. What he certainly didn't show was that the audience condoned immoral actions by humans in the name of religion. He simply showed that Christians ascribe different rights to their god than they do to humans. He seems outraged by that, but--as I just showed above--many of us do the same sort of thing with non-religious institutions like government so I'm not sure why he seems so shocked.

So in summary--I didn't upvote because I found the argument to be weak-sauce.

Let the inmate choose. If he chooses to donate his organs, they could anesthetize him instead of a lethal injection and remove the organs for use.

As long as it's the inmate's choice, I have no problem with it.

Aaaaaaaaaaawwww, that's obviously a serious brain disorder. Nurse you strap him down, I'll prep the lethal injection.

>> ^demon_ix:

Well, we did plan on eating it the entire time... It's not like we were gonna give it a lethal injection and then hold a service in his memory, was it?
In reply to this comment by Gallowflak:
So for like, 5 hours, you thought it was still alive and didn't do anything, and then when you finally got uncomfortable, you decided to bludgeon it against marble for half an hour straight?
Jackass . Poor fish!


I know. I'm just a hypocrite; I eat tons of meat but feel revulsion at the suffering of the animals it's harvested from.

Well, we did plan on eating it the entire time... It's not like we were gonna give it a lethal injection and then hold a service in his memory, was it?

In reply to this comment by Gallowflak:
So for like, 5 hours, you thought it was still alive and didn't do anything, and then when you finally got uncomfortable, you decided to bludgeon it against marble for half an hour straight?

Jackass . Poor fish!

I know. I'm guessing half of all my comments are of the *brief *wheels variety. And the backups? Really, I'm sicker than hell of having to fix my dead videos. That's why I went on that big backup spree about a week ago. I easily backed up over 200 of my videos, and I would say that a quarter of those were dead when I checked them. Sometimes this shit is such a hassle sometimes. That's why I get irritable at times and lash out the nearest heartless libertarian. And they got it coming.



In reply to this comment by blankfist:
You sure have been a busybody on the Sift recently with all the invocations and the *backups. I guess them damn unions ain't keeping their workers busy enough these days.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
*law *controversy *fear

You sure have been a busybody on the Sift recently with all the invocations and the *backups. I guess them damn unions ain't keeping their workers busy enough these days.

In reply to this comment by kronosposeidon:
*law *controversy *fear

You know that delightful red spray that shoots out of someones body when a projectile traveling at high speeds hits them? Or the wonderful mixture of shrapnel, shit, and intestines when someone blows up? What about the arterial splatter that is caused by severing the Carotid artery?

Well these guys don't get to witness that first hand, they see it through a CRT or LCD there's no direct threat to their lives; unlike an infantryman. Who's to say that the target is legit? The boss, well how about that Milgram_experiment? How do you know you made a righteous kill? Because someone told them so? I'm sure that will put a whole new spin on the Nuremberg Defense. The fact of the matter is this, it's fucking complicated. Made more complicated by the fact that they are pulling the trigger from the comfort of they're god damned arm chair.

It's a lot like lethal injection. Lethal injection makes it easier for a killer to kill. Make no mistake about it, if you take part in killing someone, even if it is lawful you are still a killer.

But, it is noted that even drone pilots get PTSD, and for good reason. They get to go home like nothing fucking happened. In my mind that makes it worse.

http://trueslant.com/jefftietz/2009/04/16/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-drone-pilot/
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/08/09/pilots-of-predator-drones-suffering-ptsd/

Footage of what a predator drone sees, caution I didn't watch it all but someone probably died. It's liveleak.com after all.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7bb_1210698031

Fucking piece of shit thug deserved to die in that attack. Fuck him. The only justice for worthless fucks like him are brutal and lengthy deaths.

I'll pay for a baseball bat with my taxes. I have a problem with paying for lethal injections. These fucking waste of flesh thugs deserve to die, and not have a single chance of existing in society OR in prison. It's a waste of time and money, and both are things we cannot afford. Those guards should be fired for not standing back and letting the guy give this prick the justice he deserves. (Okay, not REALLY fired, but they should at least be ashamed of themselves for not possessing a moral compass. >:[)

I support only lethal injection with tasty herbs and breading.

Just for fun, I read the crawl this time.
I wonder if the juxtaposition of text with the interview is ever planned or if its mostly just random news bites...



(...)PHARMACIST WHO SHOT A WOULD-BE ROBBER ON MAY 19... 57-YR-OLD JEROME ERSLAND SHOT 16-YR-OLD ANTWUN PARKER ONCE IN THE HEAD INSIDE HIS STORE, THEN CHASED A SECOND ROBBER OUT THE DOOR... PROSECUTORS SAY ERSLAND WAS NO LONGER DEFENDING HIMSELF WHEN HE RETURNED AND SHOT PARKER FIVE MORE TIMES AFTER HE WAS ALREADY UNCONSCIOUS

NEBRASKA LAWMAKERS APPROVE BILL CHANGING STATE'S METHOD OF EXECUTION FROM ELECTROCUTION TO LETHAL INJECTION... NE HAS BEEN WITHOUT A MEANS OF EXECUTION SINCE FEB 2008 WHEN THE STATE SUPREMEME COURT RULED THAT THE ELECTRIC CHAIR AMOUNTED TO CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT... NE WAS THE ONLY STATE WITH ELECTROCUTION AS ITS SOLE MEANS OF EXECUTION

THREE SONS OF AN AL QUAEDA-LINKED CLERIC JAILED IN LONDON FOR RUNNING A CAR THEFT RING... THE MEN, ALL IN THEIR 20S, WERE SENTENCED ALONG WITH FOUR OTHERS TO PRISON TERMS RANGING FROM 2-4 YEARS. THE SCHEME INVOLVED STEALING LUXURY CARS FROM LONG-STAY PARKING LOTS, THOUGH THE MEN DENY FINANCING TERRORISM THROUGH THE SALES OF THE VEHICLES... THE MEN'S FATHER, 50-YR-OLD CLERIC ABU HAMZA, IS IN JAIL IN LONDON AND FACES EXTRADITION TO THE U.S. FOR ALLEGEDLY TRYING TO SET UP A TERROR TRAINING CAMP IN O

EXPLOSION IN A SHIITE MOSQUE KILLS 15, INJURES 50 IN SE IRAN NEAR THE PAKISTANI BORDER... IRAN'S SISTAN-BALUCHISTAN PROVINCE IS PLAGUED BY LAWLESSNESS AND IS A KEY ENTRY POINT FOR DRUGS... A SUNNI TERROR ORG CALLED JUNDALLAH IS ACTIVE IN THE PROVINCE, KILLING 11 SOLDIERS IN 2007 IN THE CITY WHERE TODAY'S BOMBING OCCURRED

AMERICAN JOURNALIST ROXANA SABERI, WHO SPENT FOUR MONTHS IN AN IRANIAN PRISON ON ESPIONAGE CHARGES, SAYS SHE INITIALLY CONFESSED TO BEING A SPY AFTER COMING UNDER PSYCHOLOGICAL PRESSURE... SABERI: "MY CONFESSION WAS FALSE AND I THOUGHT I TO (...)

(...)TO KEEP PRODUCTION QUOTAS AT PRESENT LEVELS, SAYING WORLDWIDE OIL INVENTORIES AT THE END OF LAST MONTH WERE AT 20-YR-HIGH... PRODUCTION CUTS COULD HAVE BACKFIRED ON OPEC BY BOOSTING PRICES AND MAKING IR MORE DIFFICULT FOR COUNTRIES TO PAY FRO CRUDE... PRICE OF A BARREL OF CRUDE IS CURRENTLY OVER $60, UP FROM APPROX #30 FOUR MONTHS AGO, BUT STILL FAR FROM 2008 HIGH OF $147

WHAT'S IN A NAME?... WINNING TICKET IN WED NIGHT'S $232 MIL POWERBALL JACKPOT WAS SOLD IN WINNER, SD... IT'S THE NINETH-LARGEST POWERBALL JACKPOT AND THE BIGGEST EVEN IN THE STATE. WINNER IS LOCATED IN SOUTH-CENTRAL SD AND HAS A POPULATION OF ABOUT 2,800

A TAX ON EVERYTHING?... THE PROSPECT OF A VALUE ADDED TAX (V.A.T) COULD BE GAINING TRACTION AS THE GOVT LOOKS FOR WAYS TO PAY FOR THE STIMULUS, BAILOUTS AND POSSIBLE HEALTH CARE REFORM... THE V.A.T AMOUNTS TO A NATL SALES TAX, AN IDEA THAT'S BEEN SUPPORTED BY SOME CONSERVATIVES, BUT ONLY AS A REPLACEMENT FOR THE INCOME TAX SYSTEM... HOWEVER A SR WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL TOLD THE WASH POST IT'S "UNLIKELY" THE V.A.T. WOULD BE USED AS A NEW SOURCE OF REVENUE

When Coulter goes to get the lethal injection becuase the police finally catch her eating babies, I wil be there, with a oversized glove and a beer hat.

At least this guy isn't a hypocrite. If you are going to follow christ, how can you justify cherry picking your bible verses? If you really believe in jesus you better get your ass out in the streets and start chopping down some trollops.

Give this guy a thumbs up and paint some angels on the ceiling of the lethal injection room. Lucky for him, he'll be dead when he realizes what a mistake he made in believing in some 2000 year old dead guy's imaginary friend.

... and according to the wikipedia site this is the cadaver of "Joseph Paul Jernigan, a 38-year-old Texas murderer who was executed by lethal injection on August 5, 1993"... thats pretty wild, because prisoners are a protected population when it comes to research (not unlike children).

More Harry Shearer found comedy here... http://www.videosift.com/video/Mike-Huckabee-gets-a-lethal-injection

Stranger than fiction indeed!