Thanks Uses. And another sad part? The friend of yours probably could breastfeed but was told she couldn't (My wife was told that shit and she breastfeed fine with three babies.) Now, it could be your friend truly couldn't feed, but that's not the most likely--the human body is meant to work, not be broke.


>> ^UsesProzac:
Lawdeedaw, I too experienced discrimination in the hospital for breastfeeding. The nurses would take my son when I fell asleep and feed him formula. Because of that he never latched and I dried up after three months. I explicitly told EVERYONE I was breastfeeding exclusively, but they still went behind my back and fed him formula. I had breast milk that I had painfully pumped in the mini fridge provided and someone THREW IT AWAY when I was sleeping. Why are NURSES and DOCTORS, of all the fucking people who should know better, doing this shit? The Enfamil schwag they pushed on me when I left was staggering. I had a diaper bag full of formula, coupons, you name it. I gave it to a friend who couldn't breast feed. I don't mind others feeding their children formula. It's all up to them, but when it comes to me and my child, fuck off, especially when I'm right.. Breast milk is infinitely better for your child. How could anyone even argue that processed, synthetic shit is better? It doesn't have any of the antigens or immune system boosting awesomness that breast milk does.
So I completely understand, agree with and support your ire and you are not over-reacting in the least. When companies can decided what dictates health and how to go by it, purely to line their pockets and post huge profits, you have to be informed and protect yourself.

Lawdeedaw, I too experienced discrimination in the hospital for breastfeeding. The nurses would take my son when I fell asleep and feed him formula. Because of that he never latched and I dried up after three months. I explicitly told EVERYONE I was breastfeeding exclusively, but they still went behind my back and fed him formula. I had breast milk that I had painfully pumped in the mini fridge provided and someone THREW IT AWAY when I was sleeping. Why are NURSES and DOCTORS, of all the fucking people who should know better, doing this shit? The Enfamil schwag they pushed on me when I left was staggering. I had a diaper bag full of formula, coupons, you name it. I gave it to a friend who couldn't breast feed. I don't mind others feeding their children formula. It's all up to them, but when it comes to me and my child, fuck off, especially when I'm right.. Breast milk is infinitely better for your child. How could anyone even argue that processed, synthetic shit is better? It doesn't have any of the antigens or immune system boosting awesomness that breast milk does.

So I completely understand, agree with and support your ire and you are not over-reacting in the least. When companies can decided what dictates health and how to go by it, purely to line their pockets and post huge profits, you have to be informed and protect yourself.

Geraldine Dawson, PhD, Chief Science Officer, Autism Speaks. July, 2009:

It remains scientifically plausible that the challenge to the immune system resulting from a vaccine (or other immunological challenges) could, in susceptible individuals, have adverse consequences for the developing brain. Evidence does not support the theory that vaccines are causing an autism epidemic. However, it is plausible that specific genetic or medical factors that are present in a small minority of individuals might lead to an adverse response to a vaccine and trigger the onset of autism symptoms.

Vaccines are not just weak or dead forms of the virus you are protecting against. They can also be parts of the virus. They do work by teaching your body's immune system to recognize certain foreign bodies as disease.

Opinion: I think this report is an appeal to emotion which is extremely difficult to overcome (objectively) because it involves the death of infants.

Fact: The instances of infectious diseases since the discovery of vaccination are significantly lower than periods prior to.

Opinion: I think what they (lobbyists) are saying is that if you overcome a disease naturally your immune system will be stronger because of it. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, as the saying goes.

Fact: A vaccination is actually a weaker form of the disease being vaccinated against.

Fact: The leading anti-vaccination lobbyist has no formal medical training...

Opinion: ... And I'm guessing a lot of people in this thread don't either. I know I don't. Everybody has the same information available to them, I guess it's how you interpret it.

Fact: I don't have children and no one close to me has ever lost a child due to an infectious disease. And they are all vaccinated. None of them are autistic.

By the way, i downvoted this video, because Behe doesnt deserve the platform. He's lying about biology, and he KNOWS he is lying. All his arguments (basically just one) was pulverized by real scientists in the Dover trial RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS EYES, he was shown flagellums with missing parts, people explained how things evolve new functions etc. and he was forced to accept that "intelligent design theory" is no more scientific than astrology.

From Wikipedia:

Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fiftyeight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough"

The guy is a deluded fraud and a liar who is completely unwilling to understand or accept evolution in the face of the overwhelming evidence that has been, on occasion, personally presented to him.

Instead of doing what any scientist and reasonable person would do, and discard his long-since disproven nonsense, he keeps trotting out the same baloney, in an attempt to fool people who know nothing about biology.

He is also, according to his own son, religiously retarded on other levels, when his son became an atheist, he basically forbade him to talk to his younger siblings. (http://breakingspells.net/son-of-michael-behe-discusses-his-atheism/)

Religious, deluded, dishonest nutcase

yes, they would be. lots of other people would too. people with weaker immune systems, people with psoriasis, people with bad teeth and lazy eyes and bone spurs. i'm short and i run slow. but we are a civilized society and do not need to write anyone off as human refuse. and how self righteous of someone to think that their specific path from creation to enlightenment is the only thing keeping "less desirables" from becoming total human refuse. that some large male diety in the sky is the only thing blessing the freaks with the ability to behave "nobly" and that without HIM these "burdens on society" would just need to be left in a landfill somewhere.

oh and also, every successful adaption started off as a MUTATION. not that i think fragile X or angelman's syndromes are the future of the human race or anything. i just resent absolutism and self righteousness. and every statement he makes at me stinks of both.

i totally understand that he doesnt mean to come off like a complete dick and doubt that he is actually a complete dick, but every interaction i have with him.... he comes off as a complete dick.
In reply to this comment by JiggaJonson:
Although I largely disagree with shinyblurry, I will concede that if we were not a civilized society, people with either physical or mental disabilities would be at a much greater risk of death. MOST new genetic mutations are deleterious, that is to say, they cause harm to their respective owners. And while I fully understand that Darwin didn't coin the phrase, it doesn't change the idea that some people are vexed by their genes in one way or another.

However, I DO agree that writing said people off as "genetic baggage," as he put it, is callus and unkind. We could just as easily say that "love" is simply a chemical reaction in the brain, and can be written off as such. But it's the value we place on those feelings, the choices we make to assign it meaning, much like the choices we make to care for one another, that give our own lives meaning and purpose.

In reply to this comment by peggedbea:
you don't know what i do for a living, so i'll skip the part where i yell at you passionately kids with downs/people with disabilities/kids with syndromes.
furthermore, survival of the fittest was not a phrase coined by darwin. and did not originally apply to the evolution of organisms. applying it to people with genetic disorders further offends me.

Come on guys, this is a NYC tradition in building a stronger immune system - duh!

I have to completely disagree with the formation of your argument. Unfortunately, you have presented a very shallow, 1 dimensional view of violence; most would refer to it as a scarecrow. I wish to state before I go further that I wish I lived in this world you imagine. I long for a world where violence isn't an answer. Let us take on your examples one at a time, then go into the thrust of the issue.

As far as terrorism goes, it is hard to even understand what terrorism is. It isn't very rigidly defined. Is it terrorism to force people to pay taxes, or is it only when you blow them up when they aren't expecting it? Terrorism is more of a red herring word used to justify actions rather a "thing" itself. that is a dodge of the issue, but then again, so was this word all along. So lets move into some of your better examples.

Was the objective of Vietnam and Korea to stop Communism? If so, then the success rate is 50%. As far as things go in the world, those aren't terrible odds. South Korea still exists as a democracy, violence won out in that case over rivaling violence.

The world war 2 example is a curious example to use. It actually shows a different picture then I think you would like to present. In the end, Germany ended up with a ruined country, as you say. But, that is only because it met up against resistance/violence. In the end, Germany was BOMBED into submitting, not talked into it. A greater force of violence stopped the lesser source of it. It was the rule of the jungle carried out in its most prime. Countless attempts by Brittan and France to talk Germany out of taking over its neighbors had no effect, only when the grind of blood and bullets was too much for her to bear did Germany relent. Indeed, WW2 is a horrible example for you to use...probably the worst I can think of.

Instead you should of used people like Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther, and Martin Luther King Jr. These people were truly non-violent and changed the world. However, they are the conspicuous examples. The reason they stand out in history is because all to often, non-retaliation results in certain defeat. Look at the plight of the native Americans. While history tells the tail of all the tribes that fought, many did not. Many made deals with the White man. The history of these arrangements is grim indeed. For the White man would constantly renig the terms and send into exile the native Americans. Even the great Jefferson, the champion of democracy, sent the native Americans further and further down the trail of tears. They did not fight. The suffered...and suffered. Perhaps, if they fought, they would off been completely eradicated, so, instead, they choose exile and decimation. Which is better, I am not one to say. But surely, their non-violence did not result in one could consider a victory.

You need to remember your fathers. And I don't mean the founders of the USA. I mean 2 billion years of evolution on this planet. Humans are not some sanctimonious super being. We are composed of the same shit, sweat, and tears as everything else. The history of all animals is almost wholly violent. The lion doesn't solve his mating deputes with a rival by any other means than brutality. Your immune system doesn't win out by being less virulent than the infection it sees to mend. Your food won't survive long enough to reap if you don't stop the insects and vermin from eating it. Washing your hands is akin to mass murder of bacteria. Anti-bacterial soap is akin to genocide. But we resolve ourselves of these sins almost constantly so that we can be naive in the construction of our morality when dealing with each other. In this world, it is life for life. Nothing alive doesn't take life as well, spare most planets. Plants are only noble creation along with some fungi. Most every animal on the planet exploits unto pain through violence some other organism. herbivorous being the most foul violator eating the only noble life on the plant. Carnivores are their penitence.

This world is a cycle of pain, and its root is violence. Violence is what drives evolution forward. One of the expatiations of the Cambrian Explosion is the arrival of carnivores. And billions of years later, you stand on the top of the tradition of exploitation. And you won't be rid of it be ignoring it inside you. You might construct a society that can slowly cope and perhaps even bread out billions of years of evolution. And in perhaps 10 thousand years, you can look back and see that you reduced human violence by 20%. And that would be a great accomplishment. Only to then be wiped out by a asteroid ending all human life to be replaced by the new slug overlords. The great comedy of life is to think you can make a difference in the 80 years we have vs the billions that the history of life has been with us. Unless you are talking about complete genetic experimentation to change the face of what it means to be human, I don't see anything working. Maybe you make a government system that handles the nature of man better, but the nature of man...the 2 billion year old murder animal, is still set before you.

Like I said, I don't like this world. I would rather live in your fantasy world. A world of reason, of peace, of progress. We don't have that world. We have a world of brutal, violence. It's only true self is that of conflict and competition that is all to often violent. It the a 2 billion year old rule that we didn't make up but have had to better realize, lest make poorly designed strategy to deal with the beast that is man.

>> ^SDGundamX:

>> ^BoneRemake:
UPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

VOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTEEEEEEEEEEE

"violence doesnt solve anything "
and yet we go to war, explain that mrs former cop.

By the way, you forgot to quote her whole comment, which in its entirety goes:
"My message to the young people out there is that violence does not solve anything. It can get you into more trouble than what it's going to solve. [If you are being bullied] don't suffer in silence: find a trusted a adult and let them know what's going on."
So first off, your question about wars was completely off-topic. But I'll take a shot at answering it anyway.
She didn't say people were smart. She didn't say people don't ever get violent. She instead pointed out violence doesn't solve any problems. Did we solve the terrorist threat with the Iraq and Afganistan wars? Did we stop Communism with the Vietnam and Korean wars? Part of the reason Germany went to war in World War 2 was because their economy was in the crapper after World War 1 and they owed money in reparations. Did they solve that problem by getting their country bombed to rubble?
Nations go to war for many reasons. There's the ostensible reasons like "spreading freedom" that the population is forced to buy and there are the actual reasons like securing resources or the sheer madness of the country's leadership. My question for you is, at the end of the day, can you really think of a war that "solved" a problem in a way that couldn't have been solved peacefully?

Well, @Lawdeedaw many diseases cannot exist in a vacuum, that is without any susceptible hosts. Vaccine builds up an individual's immune system such that you are no longer a susceptible host. If enough people get a given vaccine the affected disease can be eradicated.

(Copypasta from reddit)

In text form for those that want it in its entirety:

Speech:

"And now I thought we might have a moment, however brief, for some sincerity, if that’s ok; I know there are boundaries for a comedian, pundit, talker guy, and I’m sure I’ll find out tomorrow how I have violated them.
I’m really happy you guys are here, even if none of us are really quite sure why we are here. Some of you may have seen today as a clarion call for action, or some of the hipper, more ironic cats as a clarion call for ‘action.’ Clearly, some of you just wanted to see the Air and Space Museum and got royally screwed. And I’m sure a lot of you are here to have a nice time, and I hope you did. I know that many of you made a great effort to be here today, and I want you to know that everyone involved with this project worked incredibly hard to make sure that we honor the effort that you put in and gave you the best show we could possibly do. We know your time is valuable, and we didn’t want to waste it. And we are all extremely honored to have had a chance to perform for you on this beautiful space, on The Mall in Washington, D.C.

So, uh, what exactly was this? I can’t control what people think this was, I can only tell you my intentions. This was not a rally to ridicule people of faith, or people of activism, or to look down our noses at the heartland, or passionate argument, or to suggest that times are not difficult and that we have nothing to fear. They are and we do. But we live now in hard times, not end times. And we can have animus and not be enemies. But, unfortunately, one of our main tools in delineating the two broke. The country’s 24-hour, politico, pundit, perpetual, panic conflictanator did not cause our problems, but its existence makes solving them that much harder. The press can hold its magnifying glass up to our problems, bringing them into focus, illuminating issues heretofore unseen. Or they can use that magnifying glass to light ants on fire, and then perhaps host a week of shows on the sudden, unexpected, dangerous flaming ant epidemic. If we amplify everything, we hear nothing.

There are terrorists and racists and Stalinists and theocrats, but those are titles that must earned; you must have the resume. Not being able to be able to distinguish between real racists and Tea Partiers, or real bigots and Juan Williams or Rick Sanchez is an insult, not only to those people, but to the racists themselves, who have put in the exhausting effort it takes to hate. Just as the inability to distinguish terrorists from Muslims makes us less safe, not more. The press is our immune system. If it overreacts to everything, we actually get sicker, and perhaps eczema. And yet, with that being said, I feel good: strangely, calmly good. Because the image of Americans that is reflected back to us by our political and media process is false. It is us through a fun-house mirror, and not the good kind that makes you look slim in the waist and maybe taller, but the kind where you have a giant forehead and an ass shaped like a month-old pumpkin with one eyeball.

So why would we work together? Why would you reach across the aisle to a pumpkin-assed, forehead, eyeball monster? If the picture of us were true, of course our inabilities to solve problems would actually be quite sane and reasonable. Why would you work with Marxists actively subverting our Constitution, or racists and homophobes who see no one’s humanity but their own? We hear every damn day about how fragile our country is, on the brink of catastrophe torn by polarizing hate. And how it’s a shame that we can’t work together to get things done. But the truth is, we do. We work together to get things done every damn day. The only place we don’t is here or on cable TV. But Americans don’t live here or on cable TV. Where we live, our values and principles form the foundation that sustains us while we get things done, not the barriers that prevent us from getting things done.

Most Americans don’t live their lives solely as Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, or Conservatives. Americans live their lives more as people that are just a little bit late for something they have to do. Often, something they do not want to do, but they do it. Impossible things every day, that are only made possible through the little reasonable compromises we all make.

Look. Look on the screen. This is where we are; this is who we are: these cars. That’s a schoolteacher who probably thinks his taxes are too high. He’s going to work. There’s another car. A woman with two small kids, can’t really think about anything else right now. There’s another car, swaying, I don’t even know if you can see it. The lady’s in the NRA and loves Oprah. There’s another car. An investment banker: gay, also likes Oprah. Another car’s a Latino carpenter. Another car a fundamentalist vacuum salesman. Atheist obstetrician. Mormon Jay-Z fan. But this is us. Every one of the cars you see is filled with individuals of strong beliefs and principles they hold dear. Often, principles and beliefs in direct opposition to their fellow travelers. And yet these millions of cars must somehow find a way to squeeze one by one into a mile-long, thirty-foot wide tunnel carved underneath a mighty river. Carved by people who by the way I’m sure had their differences. And they do it. Concession by concession. You go, then I’ll go. You go, then I’ll go. You go, then I’ll go. Oh my God, is that an NRA sticker on your car? Is that an Obama sticker on your car? Ah, well that’s okay, you go, then I’ll go. And sure, at some point there will be a selfish jerk who zips up the shoulder and cuts in at the last minute. But that individual is rare, and he is scorned not hired as an analyst.

Because we know instinctively as a people that if we are to get through the darkness and back into the light, we have to work together. And the truth is, there will always be darkness. And sometimes, the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t the promised land. Sometimes, it’s just New Jersey. But we do it anyway, together. If you want to know why I’m here and what I want from you, I can only assure you this: you have already given it to me. Your presence was what I wanted. Sanity will always be and has always been in the eye of the beholder. And to see you here today and the kind of people that you are has restored mine. Thank you.”

- Jon Stewart at The Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear, October 30, 2010

>> ^Yogi:

Soooo Vaccinations are perfect? I don't buy it....even penicillin is coming back to bite us in the ass.
EDIT: I should point out that I never got vaccinations and I'm healthy as a horse...a horse thats very healthy.


Vaccines are not perfect, but they do the job of keeping 20-40% of our kids from ending up as dead or crippled for life.. (...on second thought, vaccines are perfect.)

Penicillin is "biting us in the ass" because the viruses bacteria it kills (you know the viruses bacteria that kills us if we dont kill them) develops resistance, or more accurately, the descendants of a tiny percentage of them that are immune to penicillin become more numerous down the generations. This is not an ideal situation for us humans, but penicillin is the best we've got. The one weakness of penicillin is that when we use it too much, viruses bacteria evolve to become resistant.

This is similar to why HIV patients, for instance are given medicines in "waves". One month on medication, and two months off, and so on, because during the course of medical treatment, the virus evovles resistance, and when its stopped, the non-resistant strains take over again, and you can start medicating again., this way you can keep the virus level down to a minimum.

Vaccines are a completely different matter. Vaccines work by triggering our immune system towards specific attacks, which means that they dont attack an evolving virus, but they prepare our bodies for attacks against them. Polio, for instance does not evolve to circumvent this protection, because it is denied access to evolve in the first place with mass-vaccination.

EDIT: correction on the bacteria/virus confusion. Thanks GeeSussFreek

Super bugs aren't bread by vaccinations, but by mutations in existing strains through the process of evolution and survival of the fittest against immune systems and drugs. Vaccines eliminate you from that entire process by removing breeding grounds for this evolution to take place. Over and under medication are more in line with a topic of mutation in virus's and Bactria, not vaccines. In reality, not getting vaccinated aids in the cause of breeding super virus's, what looks like a normal flu season could just be the next pandemic if the flu virus mutates in just the right way. If no one could get flu, then it wouldn't matter.

Cancer is completely misunderstood by most people these days. The general view seems to be that no one has cancer until something "gives" it to them, like a virus giving you a cold. Then, once you have it, there are a few medical interventions that may or may not help.

In reality, everyone has cancer (or at the very least micro-tumors). Whether those tumors are held in check by the immune system or allowed to grow and invade other tissue is largely an effect of the condition of the person's body, which in most cases is very much controlled by that person.

Inflammation drives many of the processes that feed cancer, including the creation of the additional blood vessels around it. Things that significantly increase inflammation include tobacco, alcohol, excess fat (especially abdominal fat), lack of exercise, foods high in omega-6, and any foods that increase insulin levels abruptly (ie- sugar and refined carbs).

So yes, Hitchens' lifestyle is a large part of the problem. Thin people who exercise and eat plenty of vegetables do get cancer, but at much lower rates than those who eat a typical western diet and don't exercise regularly.

If you want to reduce your personal risk of cancer then don't smoke, don't drink, get lots of omega-3, eat lots of veggies (variety is the most important thing), and get plenty of exercise (length of exercise is more important than the intensity).

Eventually we'll have the medical knowledge to prevent and cure virtually all cancer, but currently you are the only one who can control whether you live long enough to see those advances. You can't currently drop your chances of cancer to 0%, but you can get very close.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

>> ^chilaxe:
Hitchens, as intellectual as he is, basically killed himself. Smoking, drinking, overweight, no exercise, probably terrible diet.
If there were a "next time," he should clean up his act within a rational time frame, and advocate increased science funding above the miniscule current amounts. We'd feel really dumb if we died of a curable disease.
However, there isn't a next time...

Right, because skinny people who exercise, and don't smoke or drink never get cancer.
Give me a fucking break.

I don't know what out of date knowledge you are talking about. This is as concise a video I can find on his view. He does leave out the issue that I think we talked about just prior that by course of action of being sick you can spread the sickness to people who are also not vaccinated. I would be interested to see his opinion on that. But his knowledge hardly seems out of date being that he is at least aware and considering the causes and effects of gulf war syndrome. Moreover, he has many family members that are doctors with even more recent information that I am sure he gleans off of. I would be interested what exact out of date reckoning you are talking about, perhaps that would provide some context. I could, however, find some suspicion in the statement of shots overwhelming the immune system. But he sates that more as something he thinks should always be a consideration, not something there is empirical evidence of. I can't even comment as to the existence or non-existence of such a unbiased study, I am no a virologist.

What makes you think that he wouldn't listen to experts? Moreover, he also has more of a backbone than Obama and won't just capitulate to the first expert that spreads fear his way. That is how I see the wall street bail out, as some clever fear mongers gaining from the fear they were able to sow. People in medicine most likely aren't so sinister, but they still are people interested in funding their objectives, and will always think that the thing they are working on is the most important thing in the world. Take my uncle for example. He works as a experimental biologist on Anthrax. And as such, he always frames it as the "most important issue of our time!". While it is not a trivial problem, his proximity to it distorts the relevance. The same could be said of this recentish flu thing. It was all over the news, so we all think it is super serious, but really, it wasn't.

The market is just democracy of money. When the government steps in and takes over sections of the market it distorts the true value of it. If you want cheap medication, you don't want the government involved, period. Government does not make things cheaper or more wildly available, ask Russia. They had plenty of tanks and nuclear bombs, but they didn't have soap or woman's pantyhose. I think it is interesting that you bring up Typhoid Mary. What about drunk driver bill? Should alcohol be banned to prevent this public health concern that is drunk driving? Where does the line for public safety begin and end? If it is completely arbitrary, then I fear the future viral police state!! Perhaps they will let me have the sick blonds in this evil future...that is my one hope!

(please frame conversation as interested in discussion and not trying to antagonizing, I don't usually come off well in text! If you placed a couple of hehehe I just fated in between some lines it should give an idea to my state of mind.)