>> ^EvilDeathBee:

>> ^Sagemind:
Anyway you look at it, Atkins is still dead!

What's your point? That his diet doesn't work because he's died... at the age of 72... from a fall where hit his head?


As Tom Stoppard said, when asked why he smoked while knowing cigarretts could kill him, "How differently I might behave if immortality were an option."

You mentioned a bunch of metaphysical rules of the universe above. I'm assuming that since God created the universe and everything and everything, that he created both the physical rules and these metaphysical rules too.

* "sin" --> Rule: Sin exists and is defined by a particular set of actions/thoughts/etc.

Sin is defined as disobedience to Gods commands

* "death" --> Rule: Death exists

Natural death temporarily exists..the second death is eternal

* "Their sin brought death into the world." --> Rule: When the first person sins, death will come to everyone.

This isn't a rule, it is simply a consequence of the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

* "He bore the punishment (death) for all sins so that through Him, we could be forgiven for our sins and be given eternal life." --> Rule: For humans to be forgiven for our sins and be released from death, someone had to be sacrificed.

There is a story about a King who decreed that anyone who committed the crime of adultery would have their eyes put out. This was enforced in the land for some time, until one day the prince of the kingdom was caught in the act. The King then was faced with a dilemma. On one hand He desired to be merciful to the prince, his son, but on the other hand he had to maintain his standard of justice to maintain the integrity of his authority in the kingdom. Therefore, to solve this conflict between justice and mercy, he put one of the princes eyes, and one of his own.

This story is similar to the reasons why God sent His Son to the cross. It was the solution to the conflict between His justice and His mercy.

* "What was required was a man who lived a perfect, sinless life in total obedience to God" --> Rule: The sacrifice had to be a perfect human to be effective.

The law was given because of sin, and the law couldn't make anyone perfect. What the law did was serve as a mirror unto man to show him what sin is. What was required was someone to perfectly fulfill that law so man could be reconciled back to God. Until that point, man had been spiritually separated from God because of sin. It took a sinless person to build that bridge and restore mans fellowship with God. That is why Jesus serves as a bridge between man and God, because it is only through His righteousness that we can reach God. Our good works are not good enough; they are like filthy rags before a Holy God.

So, why did God invent these particular rules? Why did he invent the concept of sin in the first place?

Why did your parents tell you not to play in traffic or take candy from strangers? For your protection.

Why not let us rut around like the other animals doing whatever occurs to us without the need for judgement?

Because we're not animals, and because we know better. He created us in His image and gave us a conscience to know right from wrong. We are set apart for His purposes.

Why did he invent death if he loved us so much?

Death was a punishment for sin. However, it was also a tender mercy. If mankind was immortal, we would be eternally separated from God.

Why did he create the rule that when one person sinned, the whole of creation would die (especially after he created humans such that they would sin all the bloody time)?

It wasn't a rule, but simply a consequence. When He created human beings, they were not made such that they would sin all of the time. It is when man chose to sin that his nature became corrupted. It's like how traits are passed down from their parents genetically..we inherited their sinful nature.

Why did God create such a horrible place as Hell? Why not just love Satan and Satan's angels (all his creations) enough so that they would be good again as he expects from you and me?

We don't know whether there was an offer of reconciliation to Satan or not. What we do know is that today they all stand condemned. Salvation is not "God loving us enough so we'll be good again".

Why would God create such an impossible condition for the forgiveness of sins that he would have to create and send his son to be killed by his fallen creation?

I gave an explanation for this earlier. I will say that His standard for goodness is moral perfection; that is inherent to His nature.

This all sounds like plot-driving fantasy writing to me (Rule: the one ring can only be destroyed by being dropped into the fires of Mount Doom; Rule: Fairy dust and happy thoughts will give you the ability to fly; Rule: Walking into the special closet without thinking about it will put you in Narnia), and that's why I think the Bible is fiction too. They're such random rules of cause and effect (not to mention some of the random rules of sin itself) that they can only lead to disaster and disappointment... unless they're just plot devices that lead to a bunch of awesome fantasy stories. And that's what I currently believe.

As you learn more I hope you will begin to make the connections between what we have been talking about for the past year or so. Although you are developing a more in depth understanding of the gospel, it is still on a superficial level and you have many misconceptions. If you want to understand it, then instead of trying to constantly falsify it, you might actually try studying what Christian theologians (and not skeptics) have said about it. There is nothing logically contradictory about the gospel. It is internally consistent in every respect, and its depths are inexhaustible.

If God doesn't want to send us to Hell, why did he invent rules so that he would? Can't God just change or break his own rules and stop sending us to Hell?

Let's say you have a perfectly well behaved son, but one day he starts doing meth on your kitchen table and bringing hookers into his room every night. Are you going to compromise your standards and say that is okay or are you going to lay down the law and give him an ultimatum? You don't want to do anything that would harm your son, because you love him, but neither are you going to approve of his behavior, or endanger the well being of the rest of the household. You are going to let him know there are very real consequences to his behavior and enforce the rules.

God is Holy and just.

By who's definition? What can those human words of judgement possibly mean when applied to a god? And if we are following the human meaning of "just", how is it just to create the concept of sin, create death, create rules where if you sin you die, create hell as the punishment for sin, and then create humans such that we would definitely sin? That's not just in the least. And yes, you say that you and I have the chance to redeem ourselves, but what about those of us who lived and died before we had that chance? Why should they all have to suffer? They will never have the chance to accept Jesus as saviour.

God has given us progressive revelation. As I've said before, you don't go to hell for what you didn't know, you go to hell for what you do know and reject. Everyone prior to the cross was saved according the amount of revelation God had given them. For the gentiles, it would on the basis of their conscience. For the jews, it was on the basis to their adherance to the law.

The words holy and just wouldn't mean anything if God hadn't give us revelation about Himself. They mean something because of who He is. It is without Him that they would become meaningless. Essentially, it is all to say that God is perfect. Or as they say in philosophical circles, that He is a maximally great being, possessing every possible perfection.

We will experience life as God had originally designed it, here on Earth, before the fall.

That's a new one for me. Can you give me a quote? I was pretty sure heaven was up in the sky somewhere, even according to the Bible. Didn't Jesus "rise" into heaven?

Revelation 21:2-5

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Now, because of Jesus, we can be forgiven and go free. Jesus paid our fine in full. This is the good news, that through Jesus our sins are forgiven, and that He grants us eternal life. Pray to Jesus Christ and ask Him to come into your life as Lord and Savior, and you will be saved.

If my fine is paid in full and I've been given eternal life, why am I praying for anything?

For the same reason that if you wish to enter a door you must first walk through it.

>> ^messenger

Looks like @kceaton1's getting serious.

You may not speak out but i've decided to. If anyone is concerned about the seemingly unfair statements i make about shinyblurry then my comment section can show the proof. I have engaged him in discussion a number of times of science/theism, and the results are poor. He doesn't offer you the same respect he expects you to give him, i find him egotistical and obnoxious and completely uninterested in serious discussion. Read my discussions with him if you don't believe that - there's proof which is the test of any theory as we all know.

People like shinyblurry don't even realise that their zealotism drives people away from the religion.

Let me make a statement regarding the big bang theory. Firstly, all scientific theories are put in place to explain the facts. A theory takes everything we know, balls it up into a bunch of connections, and offers us a way of understanding that phenomenon. The big bang theory is not "complete", that is why it's still an active field of study. There are so many scientists right now trying to improve on theories that it's hard to even imagine.

You read a web page like that - almost entirely signed by scientists from the US and mostly "independent researchers"? And suddenly you think you know about the big bang. And in it one person suggests the idea that rigidly adhering to old forms is harmful to scientific advancement, but you take it to mean something else as far as i can tell - shame on you.

The big bang predicts the initial distribution of elements that we see reflected in the universe today - mostly hydrogen, a bit of helium and trace other elements. It actually predicts using only PROVEN SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES (that are testable to anyone on earth) what time and at what temperature different particles were able to form. From that, it predicts what chemical composition the universe has, and finds that it's in agreement. Do you even realise the significance of that? I don't think you do, your brain has been trained by religion to look for things like that and see only design. And that's also why you can't understand scientific theories. You really need to open your mind to how other people think, blurry, and i mean that with kindness.

Do you really think the big bang is so far away from the truth, in your ignorance? Have you looked at it in the kind of depth you need to to understand it? If not, i kindly ask that you stop spouting rubbish in the same way i don't go about trashing your unfounded, ungrounded theories every time you mention theism.

i didn't intend to speak out on @kceaton1's behalf, but i'm pretty sick of blurry canvassing for converts with misinformation myself. His links and statements provide nothing of substance to the argument. It doesn't matter what religion kceaton is, as a theist yourself i'm surprised you act cocky about another's choice of religion. Doesn't your religious claptrap say something like do unto other as you would have them do unto you? In my opinion under your own religion you will be going to hell for being so manipulative and insulting to others.

>> ^kceaton1:

>> ^shinyblurry:
That's quite a rant, Kceaton. Unfortunately, you cannot use the light travel time problem to falsify YEC. The SBB model also has a light travel time problem, specifically the horizon problem. Check out what some scientists published in New Scientist Magazine:
http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
I'm sorry you were indoctrinated into the Mormon church. My heart goes out to you, but you've thrown away the baby with the bathwater. It isn't too difficult to falsify the Mormon God, but neither does that make atheism the natural conclusion.
>> ^kceaton1

One:
I've known about this study since day one, does it surprise me, hahahahahaha. I think most people are morons. NO IT DOESN'T! I think we have one of the worst educations systems in the world, you may think your belief driven gospel knowledge may keep you safe, flying up there in the sky, BUT I'll take a damned engineer EVERYDAY over your damned God!
Two:
About my past. This is the THIRD time you've said this same thing. This is borderline abuse, FUCK YOU! Get off your high horse your are not an immortal moral high judge sent here to Earth to tell us what was a wrong or "sorrowful" mistake. I'm sorry, I'm being really damned aggressive right now, but I'm tired of your cockeyed charades and your imperative to make sure every Mormon that is or ever was KNOWS how "sorry" you are for them.
---
I'm tired of the targeted trolling!
That also means I will never qualify your "horizon" crap with a response, because it doesn't deserve one. I know this came off rude so sorry for that, on the other hand it was suppose too.

Two:

About my past. This is the THIRD time you've said this same thing. This is borderline abuse, FUCK YOU! Get off your high horse your are not an immortal moral high judge sent here to Earth to tell us what was a wrong or "sorrowful" mistake. I'm sorry, I'm being really damned aggressive right now, but I'm tired of your cockeyed charades and your imperative to make sure every Mormon that is or ever was KNOWS how "sorry" you are for them.

Sorry if you were offended. I think you're being overly melodramatic. You spent 3 paragraphs mentioning how indoctrinated you were into the mormon faith, and how this impacted your beliefs, as well as ragging on Christians and creationism, in the topic of "creationism vs evolution". Have some awareness of what you're doing and where you're doing it before you fly off of the handle.

---

I'm tired of the targeted trolling!

That also means I will never qualify your "horizon" crap with a response, because it doesn't deserve one. I know this came off rude so sorry for that, on the other hand it was suppose to

It's not crap, it's a legitimate problem which cannot be explained without the inflationary fudge factors. It's the same thing with dark matter and dark energy. They were invented to explain away discrepancies in the SBB model, a model which is held together with duct tape and elmers glue, but you're a true believer, and you call everyone else morons. The pathological skeptic is skeptical of everything except his own cherished beliefs.

>> ^kceaton1:

>> ^shinyblurry:

That's quite a rant, Kceaton. Unfortunately, you cannot use the light travel time problem to falsify YEC. The SBB model also has a light travel time problem, specifically the horizon problem. Check out what some scientists published in New Scientist Magazine:
http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
I'm sorry you were indoctrinated into the Mormon church. My heart goes out to you, but you've thrown away the baby with the bathwater. It isn't too difficult to falsify the Mormon God, but neither does that make atheism the natural conclusion.
>> ^kceaton1


One:

I've known about this study since day one, does it surprise me, hahahahahaha. I think most people are morons. NO IT DOESN'T! I think we have one of the worst educations systems in the world, you may think your belief driven gospel knowledge may keep you safe, flying up there in the sky, BUT I'll take a damned engineer EVERYDAY over your damned God!

Two:

About my past. This is the THIRD time you've said this same thing. This is borderline abuse, FUCK YOU! Get off your high horse your are not an immortal moral high judge sent here to Earth to tell us what was a wrong or "sorrowful" mistake. I'm sorry, I'm being really damned aggressive right now, but I'm tired of your cockeyed charades and your imperative to make sure every Mormon that is or ever was KNOWS how "sorry" you are for them.

---

I'm tired of the targeted trolling!

That also means I will never qualify your "horizon" crap with a response, because it doesn't deserve one. I know this came off rude so sorry for that, on the other hand it was suppose too.

>> ^A10anis:

>> ^Fletch:
>> ^A10anis:
>> ^VoodooV:
Look, I think the video itself is quite annoying because yes, I do feel it's a bit preachy.
but the message itself, is quite accurate.
And if it's so obvious, you won't mind stating why homosexuality is not normal.

I totally agree, the video IS "quite accurate," but I stand by my comment. Gays now -quite rightly - are protected by the law, have civil rights and will soon, hopefully, be allowed to marry. They worked hard for their rights, just as woman, and other persecuted minorities, did. My salient point, regarding the video, is that it preaches to the converted, will not change those bigots who will always hate, and that maybe it's time to enjoy their well earned rights and allow time to change the entrenched opinions of the minority. Sadly, going by the comments, ANY criticism of videos like this is tantamount to homophobia, which could NOT be further from the truth.

You are precisely who this video is addressing. YOU are the reason this video exists. YOU, who think that human rights are something "earned" by a minority, not inherent, bestowed upon the disenfranchised who should just feel grateful for the tolerance and generosity of the majority and kindly shut the fuck up about it. You just don't get it.
And THEN, after immortalizing your ignorance and arrogance in prose by releasing it into the ether, not to mention a worldview that likely extends no further than the windshield of your Prius, you refuse to clarify something that should be extremely easy to clarify for someone so enlightened. Yet, you dodge the question by dismissing the asker as incapable of understanding that which you have failed to explain as not worth your time, when, in fact, you are incapable of understanding the question in the first place, as already proven by your demonstrable inability to grasp the underlying issue/reality.
You aren't fooling anybody but yourself.

How you have managed to deduce from my comments that this video is aimed at me is, quite frankly, beyond ignorant. And if you don't think rights are fought for, you know nothing about history. Your notion of equality being a fundamental right is, though commendable, rather childish. In the real world, minorities fight hard to change attitudes and, as with homosexuality, are making good ground which is a credit to them. Now, try reading my comments again with a more objective view and you may, just, see them for support of gay rights and NOT a criticism of them. Sadly though, I doubt you have the ability to do so. I shall not respond again, as you have exhausted my patience.


Yeah, because that's what all our worlds rotate around isn't it? Your patience. Your replies are predictable and very formulaic. Trolls have followed the same blueprint since Compuserve was one of the "Big 3". Let's try something you can actually relate to...

Ya know what, probie? Your eulogising here has started to get tiresome. I mean, be happy that your ilk are allowed to post comments and all that, but do the rest of us have to have your opinions and ideals shoved down our throats just because you can? I mean, I'm happy for you and all... comment away! Seriously, it's something you are allowed to do, so I don't begrudge you that right at all. It's just that... do you have to be so goddamned flamboyant about it?

>> ^Fletch:

>> ^A10anis:
>> ^VoodooV:
Look, I think the video itself is quite annoying because yes, I do feel it's a bit preachy.
but the message itself, is quite accurate.
And if it's so obvious, you won't mind stating why homosexuality is not normal.

I totally agree, the video IS "quite accurate," but I stand by my comment. Gays now -quite rightly - are protected by the law, have civil rights and will soon, hopefully, be allowed to marry. They worked hard for their rights, just as woman, and other persecuted minorities, did. My salient point, regarding the video, is that it preaches to the converted, will not change those bigots who will always hate, and that maybe it's time to enjoy their well earned rights and allow time to change the entrenched opinions of the minority. Sadly, going by the comments, ANY criticism of videos like this is tantamount to homophobia, which could NOT be further from the truth.

You are precisely who this video is addressing. YOU are the reason this video exists. YOU, who think that human rights are something "earned" by a minority, not inherent, bestowed upon the disenfranchised who should just feel grateful for the tolerance and generosity of the majority and kindly shut the fuck up about it. You just don't get it.
And THEN, after immortalizing your ignorance and arrogance in prose by releasing it into the ether, not to mention a worldview that likely extends no further than the windshield of your Prius, you refuse to clarify something that should be extremely easy to clarify for someone so enlightened. Yet, you dodge the question by dismissing the asker as incapable of understanding that which you have failed to explain as not worth your time, when, in fact, you are incapable of understanding the question in the first place, as already proven by your demonstrable inability to grasp the underlying issue/reality.
You aren't fooling anybody but yourself.


How you have managed to deduce from my comments that this video is aimed at me is, quite frankly, beyond ignorant. And if you don't think rights are fought for, you know nothing about history. Your notion of equality being a fundamental right is, though commendable, rather childish. In the real world, minorities fight hard to change attitudes and, as with homosexuality, are making good ground which is a credit to them. Now, try reading my comments again with a more objective view and you may, just, see them for support of gay rights and NOT a criticism of them. Sadly though, I doubt you have the ability to do so. I shall not respond again, as you have exhausted my patience.

>> ^A10anis:

>> ^VoodooV:
Look, I think the video itself is quite annoying because yes, I do feel it's a bit preachy.
but the message itself, is quite accurate.
And if it's so obvious, you won't mind stating why homosexuality is not normal.

I totally agree, the video IS "quite accurate," but I stand by my comment. Gays now -quite rightly - are protected by the law, have civil rights and will soon, hopefully, be allowed to marry. They worked hard for their rights, just as woman, and other persecuted minorities, did. My salient point, regarding the video, is that it preaches to the converted, will not change those bigots who will always hate, and that maybe it's time to enjoy their well earned rights and allow time to change the entrenched opinions of the minority. Sadly, going by the comments, ANY criticism of videos like this is tantamount to homophobia, which could NOT be further from the truth.


You are precisely who this video is addressing. YOU are the reason this video exists. YOU, who think that human rights are something "earned" by a minority, not inherent, bestowed upon the disenfranchised who should just feel grateful for the tolerance and generosity of the majority and kindly shut the fuck up about it. You just don't get it.

And THEN, after immortalizing your ignorance and arrogance in prose by releasing it into the ether, not to mention a worldview that likely extends no further than the windshield of your Prius, you refuse to clarify something that should be extremely easy to clarify for someone so enlightened. Yet, you dodge the question by dismissing the asker as incapable of understanding that which you have failed to explain as not worth your time, when, in fact, you are incapable of understanding the question in the first place, as already proven by your demonstrable inability to grasp the underlying issue/reality.

You aren't fooling anybody but yourself.

Look Anthony Hopkins! I knew he was immortal!

In the words of the immortal Cartman: The FUCK, dude, the FUCK?!

It gets pretty real when the cops have to come arrest couples at the county registrars offices for refusing to leave because they are being refused their rights.

This is not an idealogical game. Say it to someones face, don't hide behind laws... justice will prevail and thy shame will be immortalized

Thank you for the promote!
In reply to this comment by radx:
*promote the immortal voice of Edward R. Murrow

*promote the immortal voice of Edward R. Murrow

Need a nice close up of his face to immortalize this.

http://lyrics.wikia.com/Sage_Francis:The_Best_Of_Times

It's been a long and lonely trip but I'm glad that I took it because it was well worth it.
I got to read a couple books and do some research before I reached my verdict.
Never thought that I was perfect. Always thought that I had a purpose.
Used to wonder if I'd live to see my first kiss.

The most difficult thing I ever did was recite my own words at a service
Realizing the person I was addressing probably wasn't looking down from heaven.
Or cooking up something in hell's kitchen, trying to listen in or eaves drop from some another dimension.
It was self serving just like this is.

Conveniently religious on Easter Sunday and on Christmas.
The television went from being a babysitter to a mistress.
Technology made it easy for us to stay in touch while keeping a distance,
'til we just stayed distant and never touched. Now all we do is text too much.

I don't remember much from my youth. Maybe my memory is repressed.
Or I just spent too much time wondering if I'd live to have sex.
Fell in love for the first time in 4th grade but I didn't have the courage to talk to her.
In 8th grade I wrote her the note but I slipped it in someone else's locker.

Considered killing myself 'cause of that.
It was a big deal. It was a blown cover.
It was over for me. My goose was cooked.
Stick a fork in me. The jig is up.
I blew my chances, the rest is history, our future was torn asunder.
It became abundantly clear that I was only brought here to suffer.

At least I didn't include my name.
Thankfully I wrote the whole note in code
And it had 10 layers of scotch tape safety seal making it impossible to open.
Plus, it was set to self destruct.
Whoever read it probably died…laughing.
I wonder if they lived long enough to realize what happened.

A year later, I came to understand that wasn't love that I was feeling for her.
I had someone else to obsess over.
I was older. I was very mature.
I forged my time signature while practicing my parents autograph 'cause I was failing math.
Disconnected the phone when I thought the teacher would call my home.

I checked the mailbox twice a day at the end of a long dirt road.
Steamed open a couple envelopes like I was in private detective mode.
If you snoop around long enough for something in particular you're guaranteed to find it.
For better or worse that's how I learned that it's best to just keep some things private.

It was the best of times. It was the end of times.

It was the best of times. It was the end of times.
I was always on deck, I was next in line.
An only child with a pen and pad writing a list of things that I could never have.
The walls in my house were paper thin.
Every squabble seemed to get deafening.
If my memory serves me correctly I made it a point to void and forget some things.
Probably to keep from being embarrassed.
Never meant to upset or give grief to my parents.
Kept my secrets…hid my talents…
In my head, never under the mattress.

Therapy couldn't break me.
Never learned a word that would insure safety.
So I spoke softly and I tip toed often.
The door to my room was like a big old coffin.
The way that it creeked when I closed it shut.
Anxieties peaked when it opened up.
As if everything that I was thinking would be exposed.
I still sleep fully clothed.

It was the best of times.

It was beautiful.
It was brutal.
It was cruel.
It was business as usual.

Heaven. It was hell.
Used to wonder if I'd live to see 12.

When I did I figured that I was immortal.
Loved to dance but couldn't make it to the formal.
Couldn't bear watching my imaginary girlfriend
Bust a move with any other dudes.

Tone Loc was talking bout a "Wild Thang"
But I was still caught up in some child thangs.
Scared of a God who couldn't spare the rod.
It was clearly a brimstone and fire thang.

Pyromaniac. Kleptomaniac.
Couldn't explain my desire to steal that fire.
Now I add it to my rider.
Like "Please oh please don't throw me in that patch of brier!"

It was the best of times. It was the end of times.

The school counselor was clueless 'cause I never skipped classes.
Perfect attendance. Imperfect accent.
Speech impediment they could never really fix
And I faked bad eyesight so I could wear glasses.

Considered doing something that would cripple me.
I wanted a wheelchair. I wanted the sympathy.
I wanted straight teeth so then came braces.
4 years of head gear helped me change faces.

It was the best of times. It was the end of times.

Now I wonder if I'll live to see marriage.
Wonder if I'll live long enough to have kids.
Wonder if I'll live to see my kids have kids.
If I do I'm gonna tell 'em how it is.

"Don't listen when they tell you that these are your best years.
Don't let anybody protect your ears.
It's best that you hear what they don't want you to hear.
It's better to have pressure from peers than not have peers.
Beer won't give you chest hair. Spicy food won't make it curl.
When you think you've got it all figured out and then everything collapses…
Trust me, kid…it's not the end of the world."