In a nutshell, my main gripe with this is the large disconnect between the media hysteria and the actual specifics of the case.

OMG, PRISM IS LOOKING AT MY WEB INFO!

Nope, PRISM was designed to collect foreign data. It legally can't be used on Americans. http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/304349-administration-declassifies-prism-information

OMG, THEY ARE RECORDING ALL MY PHONE CALLS!

No they aren't, the only data they can collect is phone number, call time and length.. If they want to record you, they'll need a warrant. http://news.yahoo.com/nsa-collection-verizon-call-records-draws-instant-backlash-135550018.html

(I picked the first sources I could find. If they aren't sufficient, let me know and I'll find better, though I've not heard anyone say that either of these points are untrue.)

Another thing that makes me suspicious is that this leak seems to have been coordinated with the republican scandal offensive of a couple weeks back. This feels like a campaign strategy.

I'm not hearing any specific arguments about NSA protocol from either of you in this discussion. I'm getting the impression that you see the NSA as a group of assholes, unconcerned with National Security that instead focusses on harassing citizens. - which means we are having two different arguments "what are reasonable measures to be used to investigate attacks on American soil?" vs. "The NSA is evil".

These arguments exist in different universes. Can you think of a way to reconcile them?

@enoch - Specifically, what new power has the government gained here?

"I believe wiretaps are an important tool for law enforcement/counter terrorism..."

This is not Counter Terrorism, this is simply terrorism. Do I have to remind you of how COINTELPRO was used over 4 administrations to intimidate and assassinate those who fought for social justice?

"Contrary to media hysteria, Obama can't listen in on your phone calls or read your sexts without a court order."

A court order doesn't stop them, they don't listen to the courts. They use them to cover their ass but if they think my friends are organizing to protest they can read all about it in our emails and take steps to have the FBI Focus a crackdown on us. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

Now on to your direct questions.
"Do you all think that surveillance should be a legal tool in criminal investigations?"

Yes, but the government has never been interested in counter terrorism being called or assessed as a criminal act. When we started the War in Afghanistan it was to get Osama Bin Laden and we ordered them to give him up. They asked rightly for the evidence against him. We decided that it didn't matter, let's fucking kill as many people as possible and destabilize the region to get this guy, risking the deaths of up to 4 million people and increasing the threat of terror. The worst part is WE KNEW we were increasing the threat of terror, we did it anyway.

This is just one example there are countless others, even a worse one by Obama himself, it's a travesty. So no this isn't about Criminal Investigation, we have NEVER been interested in that.

"If yes, what changes do we make to current policy without rendering surveillance toothless?"

We address legitimate grievances with the nations and peoples we are wronging, and fall in line with international law. We increase terrorism on ourselves by our actions.

I've got tons more but this is getting long. The point is I'm not going to give this government anything. I'm not willing to, they've proven that they cannot have any sort of power whatsoever.

You specifically need to read up on some things because apparently you woke up today and believed you were dealing with rational people who are just trying to protect us. You're not, these guys don't work for us, they hate us.

@enoch @Fletch @Yogi

I've done a complete turn around on this issue for sure. After doing some reading, I believe this to be much ado about nothing. I know I'm taking an extremely unpopular position here, siding against the left, the right, the media and videosift, essentially siding up with Obama and David Simon. Taking an unpopular position has never stopped me before. /vanity

I believe wiretaps are an important tool for law enforcement/counter terrorism, but only if there are proper checks and balances in place to make sure that these searches are constitutionally 'reasonable' and not a means of abuse.

Contrary to media hysteria, Obama can't listen in on your phone calls or read your sexts without a court order. That warrant has been the go to check and balance for decades, I don't see why it shouldn't be sufficient today.

BUT IT'S ALL DONE IN SECRECY. Yeah, that's kind of the point of a wiretap.

BUT WHAT IF THIS POWER IS ABUSED? Then we need to reassess checks, balances, oversight, etc...

My questiosn to you:

Do you all think that surveillance should be a legal tool in criminal investigations?

If yes, what changes do we make to current policy without rendering surveillance toothless?

I'm open to any arguments you want to pose or any reading material you want to share. Am I missing something here? Change my mind.

No one said you can't criticize Islam. But you might want to get your facts straight before you do: female genital mutilation is a tribal custom that predates Islam but has been integrated into the religion in some regions of the world (predominately Africa) and is practiced by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike (look it up on wiki page, it's extremely well documented).

Also, you asked for evidence of Islamophobia? You need look no further than the hysteria in the U.S. over building new mosques or the NYPD's unwarranted surveillance (including wiretapping and undercover agents) for years of the entire Muslim community across the NY/NJ area. They caught zero terrorists during their investigation, BTW, while wasting untold millions in taxpaper dollars in the process.

I had two kinds of experiences with this stuff. One is a incredible laughing hysteria (like seen here), where I didn't know why I was laughing after about 30 seconds into the experience. The second would be change of gravity, opening my mind and thoughts, having conversations with the universe, shortly after that realizing I was talking with my Television for 2 minutes... The worst thing was that it talked back, so I thought.

To adress the first few posts. It's not a hard drug, there is no case of salvia junkies or such, you can literally buy this stuff legal... since ever. But I wouldn't recommend anyone who isn't strong minded and in the right mental state at the time of consumption. Salvinorin A is the strongest hallucinogen we know of, although it lasts only 5 minutes. And if you try something like that always have somebody with you who is sober. You will thank him later, while he will hate you a little bit for the shit you did.

@hpqp

I agree with you (I think). If I'm reading your post correctly you're saying that people shouldn't be able to say something reprehensible and then hide behind the "it's just a joke" shield to avoid criticism about what they said. CK Louis was right I think--most comedians have a hard time dealing with criticism. It's easier to attack the people who don't think the joke is funny by insisting they don't have a sense of humor than it is to admit your joke bombed.

I have no idea if things went down the way the blogger says they did, but when I heard what Tosh allegedly said, my first thought was that he crossed the line. I think rape is a valid topic to joke about but he was no longer joking about rape as an abstract concept, he was basically intimidating a member of the audience in order to shut her up so he could get on with his show. No, I don't think he was serious (if he really said it) but he certainly deserved to be criticized for the alleged intimidation.

The problem (as is amply demonstrated in this thread) is that the public debate got distracted by irrelevant 1st amendment rights hysteria, discussions of which topics were "appropriate" for comedy, what is or isn't offensive, etc. when really, like you said, the issue is whether or not Tosh used the implied threat of rape to silence a critic.

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mayor: All right, all right! I get the point!

>> ^jmzero:

Holy wow. I mean, I think it's clear that child psychiatric drugs are overprescribed (largely because parents press for "something", I think)... but this video is painfully embarrassing.
I kept looking for some hint that it was tongue-in-cheek or something, but I don't think it is. I think this guy thinks a rap, and a comically bad video is the best way to reach people with his message.
It'd be hilarious if it turned out Scientology was behind this (it seems about their level of video production, social awareness, and about the right level of anti-psychiatry hysteria).


Actually, you're not too far off the mark.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews

Holy wow. I mean, I think it's clear that child psychiatric drugs are overprescribed (largely because parents press for "something", I think)... but this video is painfully embarrassing.

I kept looking for some hint that it was tongue-in-cheek or something, but I don't think it is. I think this guy thinks a rap, and a comically bad video is the best way to reach people with his message.

It'd be hilarious if it turned out Scientology was behind this (it seems about their level of video production, social awareness, and about the right level of anti-psychiatry hysteria).

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!>> ^ToastyBuffoon:

WTF? I actually nodded my head in agreement with Bill-O.

Phenomena such as Faith Healing, Glossolalia and Snake Handling existed in US christian movements as early as the 1800's. It seems like the video you replied with is more like one christian group trying to distance itself to the embarrassment that is evangelicals, and it's easy to rope in foreign adaptations of Pentecostalism to use as evidence.

Pentecostalism itself is a foreign adaption which is based on a heresay known as montanism (now neo-montanism). It got its start in the early 1800's by the "Irvingites", who followed an outcast pastor teaching heretical christology doctrines. The father of the modern movement (early 1900s), John Alexander Dowie, believed he was the prophet Elijah and the first restored apostle to the church. It also has links with free masonry.

Ultimately your embed is just commentary on internal strife in an overall larger movement that I don't care about, and is a distraction from the real issue. What all of these have in common is the fact that human beings have a fundamental inability to avoid large scale social misdirection, and that is observable through every aspect of our existence regardless of culture, religion, social structure, lifestyle, sports team, et al.

The embed is about the false spirit which has invaded the church, which is the same spirit working in the video above. It is highlighting the abberant behavior that people who don't know much about Christianity assume is normal for Christians. This is due to the proliferation of the pentecostal and charismatic churches. This is not a judgement against pentecostals or charismatics, it is simply to say that this spirit of disorder is not from God.

Yes, there is a herd mentality, which is why the bible tells us to discern all things. Human beings are fundementally vulnerable to spiritual deception. Only God can protect us from this delusion that society is steeped in.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you that the obsession over materialism, commercialism and sexuality as exploited by modern media, such as the original video portrays, is in many ways a poison to the human condition, there are many worse examples of this in every society. Least of which would be this exact scenario played out in Western culture when a pop-star pays a charity visit to support their government sanctioned killers in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Evil doesn't often come dressed in red skin and armed with pitchforks. Evil can be banal and mundane, and it will usually come camouflaged as something good. I don't condemn the good deed, but I think you have to admit there is something profoundly disturbing about seeing grown men, soldiers no less, lose their minds as if someone flipped a switch. And yes, there are worse things, but that isn't really the point. I was pointing out the strings so someone might notice the puppeteer.

I really feel like you come here to show other people your belief as a way to convince yourself. Having a personal crusade to publicly disclaim everything that you judge as contradicting to the beliefs you were raised with makes it easy to put the doubt you have about your own faith out of mind.

I grew up without any religion in my life. I was formally agnostic, and so I understand your perspective. You don't see any evidence of a spirit, and none of it adds up in your mind. To you it's all some kind of mass delusion or hysteria. That's what I used to think until God showed me He is very real, and very much involved in what is going on on Planet Earth. I found that material existence is but a veil to a much larger reality. I pray that God will give you that experience as well, and show you that Jesus loves you, and that He is the way, the truth and the life. I am not here to prove something, I am here to do the will of God and tell you that Jesus died for your sins so you can be reconciled to God and have eternal life. I am here to warn you that the wages of sin is death, and that if you die in your sins without Gods pardon, you face Gods judgement, and hell. I say these things out of love, because I care about what happens to you.

PS - have you ever seen Japanese tentacle porn?

Hell vomited up that garbage, there is no doubt. I find though that true corruption comes by 1000 cuts. By the time a child is six years old, they will have spent more time in front of the Television/media than they will have spent quality time with their dads in a whole lifetime. That is what is really disturbing, and no one is standing in the gap. Modern parenting is putting your kid in front of a TV and giving them whatever the TV programs them to ask for. Sadly, this is just scratching the surface.

>> ^artician

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^MilkmanDan:
I've entered my own personal bizarro world -- that was Family Guy, and I found it funny! Up is down! Black is white! Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!
In all seriousness though... /upvote

Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by dickless here!


"Is this true?"
"Yes. This man has no dick."

>> ^MilkmanDan:

I've entered my own personal bizarro world -- that was Family Guy, and I found it funny! Up is down! Black is white! Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!
In all seriousness though... /upvote


Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by dickless here!

I've entered my own personal bizarro world -- that was Family Guy, and I found it funny! Up is down! Black is white! Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!

In all seriousness though... /upvote

Mas hysteria! Congrats.