@bcglorf @Fairbs

I used to hold the same view on military intervention. If only it were applied impartially by a nation or alliance, then any would be genocidal leader would be deterred by threat of imprisonment or death.

However we all know that in reality this is stymied by the lack of altruistic intentions, the political dimensions of risking soldiers' lives in foreign wars and the unintended consequences of even fully altruistic intervention.

I can't really argue against there being a case for intervention in Rwanda or after Saddam gassed the Kurds.

A sufficiently large force by the US/NATO would have probably deterred the Hutu militias in Rwanda from waging their genocide. Had the international community demanded Kurdish sovereignty from Iraq following the gas attacks, Saddam would have probably accepted it coming off the Iran-Iraq war for fear of being attacked by Iran while he waged a civil war.

In either case I can also play devil's advocate. Would the inevitable Tutsi government set up by intervening forces in Rwanda have been seen as legitimate by its people? Would reconciliation really have been effective if it was effectively imposed by outside powers? Would civil war have reignited? Even with how things turned out in the absence, we know that Kagame's government is increasingly authoritarian and has supported militias like M23 in Congo against the remnants of Hutu militias which has itself been a source of much death and violence. In the case of the Kurds, what if calls for cession resonated in the Kurdish population in Syria and Iran and the opposition turned violent in those countries?

In most cases, while hypothetical intervention may appear the clear moral ground I just can't be certain the outcome would have been better. In the case of Rwanda, probably, a large portion of the 500,000 lives lost would have been spared. In the case of the Iraqi Kurds, no intervention would have pre-empted the initial gas attack, however inciting the situation could have resulted in more people dying in violent struggle and resistance.

Why is the concept of a person belonging to a minority also being a racist so mind boggling for some people. The two are not mutally exclusive. The Tutsi and Hutu are both black...

>> ^quantumushroom:

Listen moonbat, no one gives a fuck whether your lame questions were answered to your satisfaction, least of all me. liberalism is a mental disorder.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.



A Mental Disorder is definitely on display here. I leave to the readers to determine whose mentality is more disordered.

Listen moonbat, no one gives a fuck whether your lame questions were answered to your satisfaction, least of all me. liberalism is a mental disorder.


>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.

Listen yogi, you may not believe this, but I've observed your posts for some time now. While I'm loathe to label anyone with permanence, most of the time you act like a hothead and internet badass. I've seen you disrespect sifters who would probably agree with you they don't like me. I don't really know marinara and doubt he agrees with much of what I have to say, but he was kind enough to defend me against PC nonsense.

It's not my job to offer you an attitude adjustment, only suggest one. You can be passionate without being in ATTACK MODE at all times.

I have EVERY right to call out sh1tbirds like GNOMESANE. Race his nothing to do with it, especially on Judge Judy. Per legacy's post, people of ALL kinds game the system. GNOMESANE is hardly an exception. The clown has no concept of self-responsibility or wrongdoing.

The System itself is sh1t, it's morphed into something beyond control and accountability and it's bankrupting all of us. Do you understand that for every GNOMESANE, someone else who deserves help is denied?

This is the sift. Your attempts to make things personal are a waste of time.

lv,

qm





In reply to this comment by Yogi:
>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.

If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?

You're a piece of shit QM.

Listen yogi, you may not believe this, but I've observed your posts for some time now. While I'm loathe to label anyone with permanence, most of the time you act like a hothead and internet badass. I've seen you disrespect sifters who would probably agree with you they don't like me. I don't really know marinara and doubt he agrees with much of what I have to say, but he was kind enough to defend me against PC nonsense.

It's not my job to offer you an attitude adjustment, only suggest one. You can be passionate without being in ATTACK MODE at all times.

I have EVERY right to call out sh1tbirds like GNOMESANE. Race his nothing to do with it, especially on Judge Judy. Per legacy's post, people of ALL kinds game the system. GNOMESANE is hardly an exception. The clown has no concept of self-responsibility or wrongdoing.

The System itself is sh1t, it's morphed into something beyond control and accountability and it's bankrupting all of us. Do you understand that for every GNOMESANE, someone else who deserves help is denied?

This is the sift. Your attempts to make things personal are a waste of time.

lv,

qm


>> ^Yogi:

>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.
If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?
You're a piece of shit QM.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.

If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?

You're a piece of shit QM.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.

Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.

Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.



>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?

>> ^quantumushroom:

"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?



Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?

"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".

Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?

What's left?

>> ^Boise_Lib:

Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?

Vermin?

The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.

This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.

What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?

>> ^bcglorf:

as Americans we have to look in the mirror FIRST.
You can't do that unless you've got a mirror handy somewhere.
If I invent a time machine, and go back and beat out Clinton for the presidency and deploy American troops into Rwanda and save 700,000 lives by slowing the genocide it looks pretty good to us. BUT if you only look at America, and ignore the crimes of the Hutu militia's in Rwanda, all you would see is American intervention precipitating another African civil war that killed 100,000 Africans.
You can't judge the interactions between two nations in a vacuum where only one nation's crimes and failures are considered, which is the unfortunate turn Chomsky has been taking for awhile now.
You can't judge America's role in Libya without equally assessing the role of Gadhafi as well. Without assessing both you are not only being dishonest with your audience, but deliberately so.
Also notice that this is 15 minutes of a much longer speech.
My point sadly applies to pretty much all of Chomsky's work for the last couple of years .


I guess you just don't get it then.

as Americans we have to look in the mirror FIRST.

You can't do that unless you've got a mirror handy somewhere.

If I invent a time machine, and go back and beat out Clinton for the presidency and deploy American troops into Rwanda and save 700,000 lives by slowing the genocide it looks pretty good to us. BUT if you only look at America, and ignore the crimes of the Hutu militia's in Rwanda, all you would see is American intervention precipitating another African civil war that killed 100,000 Africans.

You can't judge the interactions between two nations in a vacuum where only one nation's crimes and failures are considered, which is the unfortunate turn Chomsky has been taking for awhile now.

You can't judge America's role in Libya without equally assessing the role of Gadhafi as well. Without assessing both you are not only being dishonest with your audience, but deliberately so.

Also notice that this is 15 minutes of a much longer speech.

My point sadly applies to pretty much all of Chomsky's work for the last couple of years .

Stop giving the village idiot a platform for her hate-filled bullshit. She's like the Hutu talk radio guys in Hotel Rwanda.