Women want it both ways. Feminism isnt about gender equality its about gender inequality in favor of females. Fuck that. You act like a man and hit a guy, expect to get treated like a man and get hit back.

Damn women trying to hog all the equality to themselves.

A lot of this seems like semantics but....

Many of the issues that men face are due to the same institionalised gender inequality that feminism seeks to rectify. The suicide rates, the custody bias etc is a product of 1000s of years of patriarchy. That strong silent stoic cliche of masculinity is a fantasy (with real damage) dreamed up by the same society that put women's place in the kitchen. Its all the same poison.

Feminism isn't oppositional to men's rights. I consider myself a feminist not just because I want women to be paid the same as me, but because I think its a movement that seeks to create a society that is better for men too. I'd call myself a masculist but I'm afraid that term has probably been tainted too much by those who see it as a sort of counter-movement to feminism.

So yeah. A lot of what she says is quite true but my experience of feminism has not been this bizzaro version where it is all about women getting what women want. Most of my friends are feminist, all of my close family are...none of them are like that. I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that ideas that make you angry spread more, and that's why there is this twisted perception of feminism when I think the reality of the movement is quite different.

MY TWO CENTS
BY SOME GUY.

@newtboy.

I don't see the word fat as anything other than descriptive. That dancer was fat. I am fat. It is just a word. No "calling out" was intended.

What I meant by I wouldn't complain "as much" if men's bodies started being as constrained in the media was my inarticulate attempt to bring a sense of equality to my rant. I agree with you that there are more average looking women on TV. But "more" isn't many. What I was trying to say was -- right now, average looking men are everywhere in the media, way out of proportion to average looking women. That pisses me off. When there comes a time when average looking men start disappearing, my anger over the gender inequality of numbers will fade.

My anger over the under-representation of average-looking won't fade, though. I'll be equally as pissed on behalf of both genders.

I'm glad that you are engaging with me, and much more respectfully than I have engaged with you. I knew I shouldn't use the term "willfully blind." I was peeved and that wasn't fair nor kind. I apologize.

I will stick to "blind," though. The studies are there. Any casual watching of movies and TVs supports my position. So why are you blind, then? The facts don't support your position. Your claim to research is a puzzle to me. What research, when all the research supports my points? I concede your point that it is better than it used to be, but "by far"? No, my friend. Not "by far." Not even close to "by far."

Every little bit helps, though. Thank god for Gabourey and Melissa and Amy Schumer who proudly weighs a stupendous 160 pounds and makes fun of Comedy Central for trying to make her starve herself into stickness.

I remember weighing 160 pounds, when I was in my late 20s. I thought I was fat. Hell, I thought I was fat when I weighed 140 pounds. Now I weigh 240 pounds, and I really am fat. I wish I had Amy back then. Of course, she is a product of the latest wave of feminists who are calling bullshit on... well, the list is long. I'm so proud of her.

And I'm proud of my contribution that made it possible for her to do what she is doing. Yippee for us!

Thanks for such a respectful exchange. My apologies again for my ill-chosen, ill-mannered words.

I think the lady makes a very good point about damage being done to sex relations, and often times it seems the internet-generation feminist is actually not interested whatsoever in equality and is more accurately described a misandrist.

Very recently in my own country we had a number of famous feminists fighting to get rid of "page 3 girls" - semi nude models in tabloid newspapers. It never happened, but even as it was happening there were page 3 models complaining because it meant they'd be out of a job they enjoyed and got paid well for. No woman OR man should feel forced to take their clothes off in public for any reason, and in fact that is the case as these people are not slaves but career models by choice. What was actually happening was a prudish approach to human sexuality had been disguised as an equality thing; and the language was always of course referring to the little girls - because if you disagree with little girls having to grow up to go topless you're a certified monster and pervert.

That kind of shit really detracts from the things that are seriously unfair such as, most obviously, the pay gap. No woman should get paid less for the same job. There's no "rape culture" that i've ever heard of if your sample size includes greater than 1000 people in the west, and terms like that detract from the argument again - if you want to talk rape culture then look to India, where there is (and needs to be more) attention on changing the attitudes of the male community towards females because of horrific acts taking place.. almost commonplace. And to India's credit there was a big campaign tied into their favourite sport, with social media involvement and obviously most men proudly wearing symbols and stuff. There are parts of that society that has issues that could do with feminism.

But this is the profession of being offended. You have to drum up publicity, it has to be viral, or you don't get paid. You don't get a column in the newspaper or the mag, you don't get enough hits on your youtube to make enough money. Not if you talk about the pay gap or the gender inequality in less "civilised?" societies.. no, you do that by talking about the tits on page 3. Or espousing something unfair and incendiary; something someone will want to argue with. Nothing that fits with common sense. These people are self publicists - they will make a spelling error on a tweet to encourage others to call them stupid, correct them, essentially RETWEET AND REPLY AND FOLLOW AND LIKE!

Whether or not Sarkeesian(?) should have commented, there is a point well made in this video. I've been on the receiving end of something disguised as feminism in the past, and all it did was make me wary of anyone under 30 that calls themselves a feminist. Before i can establish whether that means misandrist, i have to establish common ground, because i'm a feminist too. What we need is more decorum and less extremism. You can't change the world without the help of both sexes, why alienate each other?

That woman (and song) is incredibly appealing.

I have to look at this differently now, knowing it comes from a country experiencing an epidemic of gang-rape and gender inequality. It's just strange to think about.

[quote]Hey dip fuck. Look at Iran or Palestine. I'll bet there are more higher educated women with positions like doctors, etc. then in the US or other western countries. So you can shove your ignorant big talking mouth back to hickistan.[/quote]

This seemed tremendously unlikely so I checked. The only specific example you gave was doctors, so I checked that:

10.8% of Palestinean doctors are women. (see http://www.pwic.org.ps/english/Health/hea3.html)
24% of US doctors are women. (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1404692/?page=2)

I couldn't find good stats for Iran, but I expect they have a higher percentage of woman doctors than Palestine because of Iran's particular focus on religious rules (male doctors are discouraged from seeing naked female patients). Given this particularity, I thin if we expanded this out to other "higher educated" positions I think we'd see at least the same gap.

That said, I think many people would assume the status of womens' rights in, say, Iran is worse than it actually is. But that's no reason not to look at things objectively. And if we expand out to other Islamic nations (like, say, Afghanistan) then the situation is much more dire.

And in defense of hickistan (which I assume is somewhere in the US despite its name), I think it's hard to fault the US too much on this front (that of educating women). It has made tremendous progress in the last 30-40 years in terms of gender inequality. For example, in 2003 49.2% of medical students were women.

>> ^peggedbea:
jesus, listen to yourselves.... either you guys almost exclusively deal with the sorriest, bitchiest, most spoiled, princess-complex females in the universe ... or you're really kind of dickish.
i'm using larsarus's comment as the example, but his sentiments seem to be close to the norm here.
expecting that my work and mind be valued and respected as much as yours, does not mean i don't value your existence too. and helping your neighbor reach something high, or get through the door with her hands full doesn't mean you've bowed down to feminist subjugation or were manipulated by doe-eyes. for fucks sake dudes.
social rule for all genitals: don't be a dick. (pun not intended)
>> ^LarsaruS:
My thoughts on equality
In my opinion equality is better than 17th century chivalry. The problem with equality though is that some people feel that they are more equal than others. This is, as far as I have observed, usually a female trait (unless you count the statistical outliers like the few ultra-rich and heads of states and the like) in that they demand equality in all things that benefit them yet refuse to fight for/accept equality in things that don't benefit them or is to their disadvantage. As I see it it is the old problem of living standards i.e. if you are used to having a high standard of living then lowering it is not a viable option. Giving way for a male can be seen as a lowering of their living standards in this instance.
How to deal with it
I have found that using their slogans against them and not helping them works quite well as they can't argue with you when you use their own arguments against them. Example: A female wants to reach the top shelves but can't because she is female and short. She sees a tall male and she looks at him with doe-eyes and asks with a lilt in her voice if he could help poor little her. Simply reply with a No and "Girl power!" or some other feminist slogan (In Sweden there was a slogan that went "Kvinnor kan!" which roughly means "Females can!" with [do anything males can] implied which I usually use). Some females realise the astounding irony of fighting gender inequalities and then relying on them for help but some of them get really pissed, in my opinion, because they can't get a male to do their bidding and are not used to being told 'No' by males. But hey if you want equality then you have got it. I would not help a random short male so I wont help a random female either. It is better for all to learn to improvise and solve their own tiny problems, how to get the crisps/chips from the top shelf, than to rely on the kindness/weakness of others.
In conclusion: you - right & they - wrong. Equality > Chivalry & Strength > Weakness
P.S. Wow this is a wall of text... congrats on getting through it :-D



Another wall of text is incoming... be warned (Not interested in starting a flame war but will probably derail the thread a bit but here goes...)

A couple of comments as you used my text as an example:
1) I would help my neighbours, I like them and know them... well most of them at least and the ones I don't like I probably would not help... As someone said above: chivalry and tipping is a choice not mandatory and so is helping others, especially people you don't like/care about.

2) I can't speak for all of the sift but when I write a text like mine I use broad generalizations to get the/my point across, Example: "All Iraqis and Afghanis are terrorists who want to blow up the world", even if it is "a bit" exaggerated or not true in many many many cases(I would guestimate it to ~99.99% of them or so)...

3) Female wiles are still female wiles whether there is a "feminist agenda"/"feminist subjugation" or not. To clarify my stance/point: Males tend to get their way by use of force, physical/monetary/mental and so on, whilst Females get their way by looking good and using males to do their bidding, see gold diggers/black widows and so on. Yes, females are worth as much and contribute to other stuff using their brains blah blah blah. However, it is a, in my eyes at least, simple concept as (most) Males (except asexuals, homosexuals, paraplegics and others not interested in females and/or able to procreate) will do basically anything to increase their chance of getting laid, see plastic surgery/crazy diet & workout schemes and so on, and helping a female does that, in our minds at least, (increases the chance of it, not guarantees it. Don't confuse the two as it might land you in trouble ) and they know that we, males, believe that and use it to their advantage. It is all quite Machiavellian and I applaud them for it.

4) is a bit OT but ties in with My, not everyone's, views on things. Cont. of 3).
It's simply biology in action. Every single action we (as a biological species) ever do is for the ultimate goal of securing procreation/the continuation of our lifeform. (Once again: My views, maybe not shared with some/most...) We (as in males) work out to look good and to be able to fight off sabre-toothed tigers (Providing safety & security), we study to get a job that provides money (for food and shelter, more money usually = better food & shelter) and so on. These things lead to a higher chance of the young surviving and is therefore seen as positive traits when females are looking for a mate. In general animals that play to their strengths survive, those who don't go extinct, and in general males can overpower females but females can outscheme males. Remember to keep on copying and diversifying that DNA. It is the meaning of life after all. Survival of the most adaptable and all that junk...

PS. Oh I almost forgot to say that that was an excellent pun Bea... love that finishing touch... (Seriously I do, very nice)

PPS. Extremly long wall of text... hopefully it is clear enough to be read and understood by others but I know what I mean and that means others do too right?

jesus, listen to yourselves.... either you guys almost exclusively deal with the sorriest, bitchiest, most spoiled, princess-complex females in the universe ... or you're really kind of dickish.

i'm using larsarus's comment as the example, but his sentiments seem to be close to the norm here.

expecting that my work and mind be valued and respected as much as yours, does not mean i don't value your existence too. and helping your neighbor reach something high, or get through the door with her hands full doesn't mean you've bowed down to feminist subjugation or were manipulated by doe-eyes. for fucks sake dudes.

social rule for all genitals: don't be a dick. (pun not intended)

>> ^LarsaruS:
My thoughts on equality
In my opinion equality is better than 17th century chivalry. The problem with equality though is that some people feel that they are more equal than others. This is, as far as I have observed, usually a female trait (unless you count the statistical outliers like the few ultra-rich and heads of states and the like) in that they demand equality in all things that benefit them yet refuse to fight for/accept equality in things that don't benefit them or is to their disadvantage. As I see it it is the old problem of living standards i.e. if you are used to having a high standard of living then lowering it is not a viable option. Giving way for a male can be seen as a lowering of their living standards in this instance.
How to deal with it
I have found that using their slogans against them and not helping them works quite well as they can't argue with you when you use their own arguments against them. Example: A female wants to reach the top shelves but can't because she is female and short. She sees a tall male and she looks at him with doe-eyes and asks with a lilt in her voice if he could help poor little her. Simply reply with a No and "Girl power!" or some other feminist slogan (In Sweden there was a slogan that went "Kvinnor kan!" which roughly means "Females can!" with [do anything males can] implied which I usually use). Some females realise the astounding irony of fighting gender inequalities and then relying on them for help but some of them get really pissed, in my opinion, because they can't get a male to do their bidding and are not used to being told 'No' by males. But hey if you want equality then you have got it. I would not help a random short male so I wont help a random female either. It is better for all to learn to improvise and solve their own tiny problems, how to get the crisps/chips from the top shelf, than to rely on the kindness/weakness of others.
In conclusion: you - right & they - wrong. Equality > Chivalry & Strength > Weakness
P.S. Wow this is a wall of text... congrats on getting through it :-D

My thoughts on equality
In my opinion equality is better than 17th century chivalry. The problem with equality though is that some people feel that they are more equal than others. This is, as far as I have observed, usually a female trait (unless you count the statistical outliers like the few ultra-rich and heads of states and the like) in that they demand equality in all things that benefit them yet refuse to fight for/accept equality in things that don't benefit them or is to their disadvantage. As I see it it is the old problem of living standards i.e. if you are used to having a high standard of living then lowering it is not a viable option. Giving way for a male can be seen as a lowering of their living standards in this instance.

How to deal with it
I have found that using their slogans against them and not helping them works quite well as they can't argue with you when you use their own arguments against them. Example: A female wants to reach the top shelves but can't because she is female and short. She sees a tall male and she looks at him with doe-eyes and asks with a lilt in her voice if he could help poor little her. Simply reply with a No and "Girl power!" or some other feminist slogan (In Sweden there was a slogan that went "Kvinnor kan!" which roughly means "Females can!" with [do anything males can] implied which I usually use). Some females realise the astounding irony of fighting gender inequalities and then relying on them for help but some of them get really pissed, in my opinion, because they can't get a male to do their bidding and are not used to being told 'No' by males. But hey if you want equality then you have got it. I would not help a random short male so I wont help a random female either. It is better for all to learn to improvise and solve their own tiny problems, how to get the crisps/chips from the top shelf, than to rely on the kindness/weakness of others.

In conclusion: you - right & they - wrong. Equality > Chivalry & Strength > Weakness

P.S. Wow this is a wall of text... congrats on getting through it :-D

The 2+2 is a bad analogy but evolution is not.

An entire group of people have fought for equal rights. Instead of understanding what they are saying the media has redefined there movement. These people practice equal rights, and are fighting for it. To say that they are arguing for something they are in fact not arguing for, which is what accepting that incorrect definition is doing, is disingenuous at best.

The common misconceptions about feminism and advocacy against equal rights for women is why rape is such a problem in so many countries, women who have the same jobs as their male counterparts are paid 25% less, and every other gender inequality issue.

This is holding our species back people. Just like civil rights and gay rights has held us back. Think of all the women that could have played significant rolls in science and medicine, but didn't because it is socially unacceptable. If that doesn't bother you it should.

I have a penis and I am a feminist.

>> ^Truth:
"And women should do whatever they want, regardless of what people think. Except for when it comes to shaving. That's an eternal 'must.'"
Yes, but we shouldn't react to it as if "OMG, a girl doing something girls don't usually do! FIRST PLACE VIDEOSIFT! FIRST PLACE DIGG!" Oh, common, that is just lame. She didn't do anything superb obviously. It's like all of you are surprised that a girl can be hot and semi-talented at something. Sorry, guys, but this attitude to life won't get you anywhere.


What's lame is you trying to assume moral high-ground for trolling's sake. Nobody voted for this video because they were surprised that a girl showed some talent - they voted because they hadn't seen a girl beatboxing this well, and probably also due to me naming the sift just right. YOU are the one automatically assuming it was #1 because it's a girl doing something mildly interesting, so if you want to pin gender inequality on somebody, start with your fucking self.

>> ^MaxWilder:
That statistic is a gross oversimplification of gender inequality. As far as I'm concerned, it's bullshit. There are still a number of gender based discriminatory practices, but you can't simply tag a number on them. I'm talking about encouraging more women to enter the sciences, encouraging more women to take their careers as seriously as their male counterparts (regarding career-family prioritization), and encouraging more men to take a greater role in child-rearing responsibilities.

>> ^thepinky:
Yeah, the statistic thing is oversimplified, but claiming that the problem is mostly the fault of women and their failure to take their careers as seriously as men and to study the sciences is an oversimplification and a misconception. Women ARE actually being paid less for the same jobs with the same qualifications and the same educations.
Besides, your brains are a third the size of ours. It's science.
(Name that movie!)


Sorry, Anchorwoman, but the studies I've seen only point to discrimination in the schooling and career choice areas of income determination. I'm sure there is more to it, but even so that's where we need to focus. I firmly believe that women should have every opportunity and encouragement available to men. I think we're getting there, but we still have work to do.

Yeah, the statistic thing is oversimplified, but claiming that the problem is mostly the fault of women and their failure to take their careers as seriously as men and to study the sciences is an oversimplification and a misconception. Women ARE actually being paid less for the same jobs with the same qualifications and the same educations.

Besides, your brains are a third the size of ours. It's science.

(Name that movie!)

>> ^MaxWilder:
That statistic is a gross oversimplification of gender inequality. As far as I'm concerned, it's bullshit. There are still a number of gender based discriminatory practices, but you can't simply tag a number on them. I'm talking about encouraging more women to enter the sciences, encouraging more women to take their careers as seriously as their male counterparts (regarding career-family prioritization), and encouraging more men to take a greater role in child-rearing responsibilities.

That statistic is a gross oversimplification of gender inequality. As far as I'm concerned, it's bullshit. There are still a number of gender based discriminatory practices, but you can't simply tag a number on them. I'm talking about encouraging more women to enter the sciences, encouraging more women to take their careers as seriously as their male counterparts (regarding career-family prioritization), and encouraging more men to take a greater role in child-rearing responsibilities.