QM!!! you said "give back the foreign aid" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

go and print some more dollars, dude. And China called, she's getting nervous about those huge loans.

>> ^blankfist:
If I attacked only the Republicans, I probably wouldn't heard complaint number one from anyone on this largely left leaning site. What's fair about that?

I'd say going against the grain isn't a virtue unto itself, and it's certainly not proof of the validity of a certain argument.

I'm perfectly happy to attack Democrats, though mostly it's for their spineless complicity in the mess we're in right now.

To be fair, the next part of your reply explained why you painted them with the same brush, and that:

...I feel we're arguing semantics at this point, and I'm not sure it's clear why you'd think interventionism is wholly separate from nation-building.

We are at this point. With those definitions of nation building, I'd argue they're not necessarily good or bad, and I wouldn't really have a problem saying "just to be sure, we shouldn't do it at all." That would be a huge change from America's past viewpoint, though.

I think the semantic point I was trying to make was that while all nation-building is intervention, not all intervention is nation-building. I still say that's true, but that second definition seems to disagree with me (that definition would turn our diplomatic agreement with North Korea into a nation-building exercise as well).

Given that second definition in particular, I'd struggle to come up with any post-WWII president who didn't do something you could qualify as nation-building, and there's a long list of them before that, stretching back to the beginning of the 19th century.

I'm not so sure about intervention itself being unconstitutional. My understanding is that it's the use of military force without a congressional declaration of war that's unconstitutional. Military action for the nation's interest is a topic the founding fathers wrote about, but did not explicitly forbid in the Constitution itself. As for the foreign aid bit, treaties are covered too, they just need to be ratified by Congress. Am I missing something?

>> ^quantumushroom:
And I'm sorry, but currently... this is kinda how the rest of the world views you.
Then return all the foreign aid so we can spend it on border fences...to keep us "in" of course.

Gee you're a swell guy QM... swell.

Perhaps you might want to look at just how 'great' the US is at giving aid?

Hmmm, well, let's look at these figures, hmm, per capita pretty darn crap... 19th... and that's using figures from 1997, I would bet my left butt cheek it's gotten worse in recent years thanks to Bush.

And what about if we read here Hmmm, it would seem that even with its already poor performance at giving aid, "it “ties” a large share of this aid to the purchase of U.S. goods and services."... ahhh, beautiful, 'tit for tat' if you will, lovely.


Now, good old Australia (my country) rates pretty darn poorly too, depending on the figures either just above or just below the US... and we've had a pretty bad environmental track record along with the horrendous US of A... but while this: "Along with Australia, it is one of only two CDI countries that have not signed the Kyoto Protocol." was true up until this year, our new prime minister ratified Kyoto pretty much as soon as he took power.

Hopefully we're on our way up.

I really hope your next president, who'd better be Obama and not... shudder, McCain, will be able to lift up your country, because the people that you QM, love so much are pulling the country, and the world, down, down down.

And I'm sorry, but currently... this is kinda how the rest of the world views you.

Then return all the foreign aid so we can spend it on border fences...to keep us "in" of course.

the "change" he is always talking about, that he never lays down, is the kind that will be left in yer pockets after the Obomba drops.....
this short list prediction, taken from promulgated data, and statements made by O himself
• Obama enacts stronger “federal hate crimes legislation” to “reinvigorate enforcement at the Department of Justice's Criminal Section.”...he may even help us all to invent some new definitions of hate...in speech, broadcast, and the printed word-

• Obama creates “a fund to help people refinance their mortgages and provide comprehensive supports to innocent homeowners.”...he will then march in lock-step to the world's money machine, faster and more dutiful than any of his predecessors

• Obama, following through on his pledge to “meet with the leaders of all nations, friend and foe,” signs a non-agression pact with ol' Akmed Handbinnajob

• Obama doubles foreign aid to $50 billion to cut “poverty around the world in half by 2015.”-fucking idiot

• Obama removes our troops from Iraq, leaving a power vacuum filled by Iran.-Armageddion???

• Obama enacts socialized medicine, destroying small businesses with taxes to pay for illegal's healthcare, and further reducing the overall quality of services, across the board-

• Obama enacts amnesty for illegal aliens....they are so helpless and needy, and their country IS connected to ours....

• Obama enacts legislation demanding carbon friendly cars, hammering the final nail in the coffin of the US car industry, and Eris help us, appoints Al Gore to some bullshit post....

• Barack Obama enacts laws to reinforce affirmative action by funneling money to “women and minority-owned businesses.” and affirmative action, well, talk about yer dumbing-down across the board, in universities, etc.

• Obama repeals the Bush tax cuts, then proceeds invent some new reasons for new taxes.....how about a gullible meatsacks tax, for everyone who went to his pep-rally....

• Obama enacts the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to entrench the power of the homosexual lobby, who we all know, are shining examples of fair play and sensibilities you'd wanna pass down to yer kids-fuck the queers in government

In short kiddies, a shitstorm-designed to get us all closer to lock-down in cell block America-

I am serious. Perhaps a re-read is in order. The map I linked was just an interesting way to visualize just how the US GDP compares to a number of other entire countries. If you count the EU as a single "country," our GDPs are very similar. and I forgot to mention, but that "charity" and "foreign aid" figure, does not include military spending. If it did, that'd just be staggeringly high, sad to say.

It's in Dollar amount. It's hard to compare the nations based on GDP when ours is so much more enormous than most other nations.
:: http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/131-us-states-renamed-for-countries-with-similar-gdps/

Here's another that considers the entire EU as "one nation"
:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

The US economy is a big producer, but also expensive to function. Our foreign aid is about twice that of the nearest nation, Germany... so when I say most aid, I mean most aid in dollars by at least 2x. I consider aid to Iraq and Israel to be legitimate aid. I don't know if it was considered in the numbers I've seen however.
BTW, the report I'm referring to can be seen in the link above. Israel isn't even on the top 10. Iraq is on top.

I should also mention our investment in the U.N... take 2005 for example:
$5,327,276,000 - which looks like it increases by about $800,000,000 or so per year.

"The top seven contributors to the UN are the USA (25%); Japan (15.7%); Germany (9.1%); France (6.4%); the United Kingdom (5.3%); Italy (5.2%); and Russia (4.3%). Collectively, they account for more than 71% of the regular UN budget." -Un.org

It's also worth mentioning the CDC and other foreign medical assistance we provide, HIV/Malaria/etc. It's pretty extensive work.


[edit]: Sorry Octo, I'm addicted to the "edit" button.

>> ^Doc_M:

...
The US is basically responsible for the most foreign aid
...
I challenge each of us to consider what would happen if the US decided to retract all of our military from all over the world, divest all of our funds from all foreign corporations, and stop all foreign aid.


Doc_M, please name a source for your claim that he US spends more on foreign aid than most other countries. Is that per country, compared to its GPD or per capita? Does it include the trillions spent in Iraq, military aid to Israel &c? Did you subtract the interest on not paying UN contribution in time?

Re what would happen if the US would retract all its interference with the rest of the world: is there anything I can do to (apart from bashing the US at this place) to speed that up ;-)?

PS: btw, the government and politicians in my country also suck, but fortunately we're so small that we cannot afford to start a war on any other country or create a Guantanamo.

>> ^Doc_M:
I kind of find it ironic. The US is basically responsible for the most foreign aid (by a extreme margin), the most science and medicine, the most recent technological advancements, the most charity

Uhm, yeah this is only if you count military aid, if you can even call that aid. Military aid mostly flows straight back in to the American economy via the arms industry, so basically it's just the government paying the military industrial complex. Much of the other aid or loans to third world countries is tied to conditions such as the country in question only buying certain overpriced products from the US, basically stimulating the US economy again.
Also as a percentage of GDP America is on the very low end.
Very interesting:
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

I live in the Netherlands and I don't hate the American people, I've met a lot of great American people. I do sincerely hate your government, foreign policy and nationalism.

This video is bullshit, it's all commentary hardly backed up by evidence. The dutch news programs don't really seem to have much bias against America. The papers have a lot of pieces against America, but that's mostly because of the foreign policy. I compare the news here with the American news online and don't see the bias...

I kind of find it ironic. The US is basically responsible for the most foreign aid (by a extreme margin), the most science and medicine, the most recent technological advancements, the most charity, and the very internet that everyone posts in to hate America. We also cherish that option and do all we can to allow people to express their malcontent whenever they want, within reason. So you can thank America for this very forum where you vent.

Also, I think people really ought to look at their own country and its merits and its citizens and its rights and governments before they go judging us. You accuse Americans of ignorance a lot. Can you claim that every one of your citizens is not? Do you really think your country is so righteous and perfect? This all sounds supremely aristocratic at best. This country is young and powerful, founded by farmers and industrialists, determined to push technology perhaps faster than it should be pushed. This country has done a great deal in pursuit of peace in the world. Unfortunately, not every attempt has bared fruit. People naturally focus on the negative.

I challenge each of us to consider what would happen if the US decided to retract all of our military from all over the world, divest all of our funds from all foreign corporations, and stop all foreign aid. Someone above compared us to North Korea... if we shut our borders and became a recluse as NK is, think about what would happen...

And if you still think we blew up our own buildings to start all this mess we're currently desperately attempting to clean up, I don't think you're worth arguing with.

It's still curious to me that a member of congress who was against every piece of war spending is suddenly giving a tear jerking speech about how a vote against this bill is tantamount to leaving soldiers high and dry with no support or training.

Your lack of sourcing for this opinion made me curious. especially since it was opposite of my thinking on John Murtha, so I decided to do a little digging.

Here is his voting record on defense issues since 1993
for those that don't click the link, he always votes for appropriation bills and has consistently voted against any condemning statements of the military
Here are his rankings according to military interest groups
again, for the non-clickers: he usually rates somewhere in the 80 to 100 percent category
Here are some of his rankings according to peace interest groups
here he runs middle of the road, but their formulas are a bit more complicated because they take into account foreign aid and human rights intervention, not just military spending

And this is from his bio on his website:
Military/defense service

"Congressman Murtha is so well-respected for his first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues that he has been a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties on military and defense issues and is one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in the country. He is the Chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee, a Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective."

So basically, I have no idea where you got the idea that he votes against war spending or hasn't always been looking out for our troops. Maybe you are confusing him with Feingold??? Sorry to bring facts into the matter, but somebody had to do it.

Facts require context.
Even if what you say is true, that sure as hell is NOT why Israel receives foreign aid (and weapons, tanks, etc.) from us.

Sheesh.

JD if you're referring to US foreign aid to Israel then you dont know why and probably dont want to know why the US gives Israel so much.

You think every hi-tech company in the world invests in israel because they have no choice? Some of the best medical and high tech products we have today were developed in Israel. If youre using an Intel PC its very possible that your intel chip was developed there. The US also gets there money's worth in military research and development thats done in Israel with some of the foreign aid money. Good intelligience costs a lot too.

"Yes, J.D., Israel does recieve a lot in foreign aid and so does Egypt. If you recall the ringleader and four other hijackers in the 9/11 atacks came from Egypt."

Excuse me?

19 hijackers committed 9/11.
15 were from Saudi Arabia (KSA).
2 were from the U.A.E.
1 was Lebanese.
1 was from Egypt.

No body ever asks why the country from which most of the hijackers came from never gets questioned. Obviously because one doesn't fool around with the oil supply coming to the US from KSA. But either way one can't keep seeking scapegoats for what basically was and is a misguided foreign policy.

"But, yes a little research will astound you how much money supports Israel and their nuclear arsenal."

Yes, J.D., Israel does recieve a lot in foreign aid and so does Egypt. If you recall the ringleader and four other hijackers in the 9/11 atacks came from Egypt.

I mentioned above why Israel get so much. Its beccause they give so much to the US in return. Certainly a lot more than any other country receiving foreign aid.