I agree. When racism is so institutionalized it may require a racist response to get to equality. I just think we need to be honest about it so, when equality is neared, we can end ALL institutional racism.

To be clear, I identified as a feminist for around 25 years before realizing how the group as a whole didn't want fairness and equality because they wouldn't ever address an inequality they benefit from. Why would I work against my own interests for a group that never has my interests or well being, or even fairness and equality as a goal?

I think it's an ugly necessity.

Equality isn't about treating everybody the same. I mean, I wish we could do that, but then I wish people wouldn't decide if they are going to hire somebody from their very first glance. But that's what we do. We do nothing and we simply allow our unconscious bias to rule our decision making which, in most cases, would be great for somebody like me.

I mean, I don't like it. I can understand entirely why people feel they have been cheated when somebody gets a job or promotion ahead of them just for the sake of ticking a diversity checkbox. Maybe you're right, maybe it is just adding energy to that pendulum, but then a pendulum without resistance swings forever. I hope conscious decisions to readdress imbalanced caused by unconscious bias works more as a dampening effect, as resistance.

Back to semantics. Like the woman in the video, I probably had quite a knee-jerk response to men's rights. Sometimes probably warranted, but then some feminists have some pretty dumb things to say as well. Anyway, the person that helped changed by mind about it was a woman and a feminist. Don't define a group by it's most extreme edges because I think it just leads you to make uncharitable judgements about people that identify as part of that group before you've even really listened to them.

If you would ever advocate for a man's rights or against a woman's privilege, no, you would fail the feminist purity test, imo.

Absolutely, the label we use is less important than the actions we perform, but it's not meaningless.
Feminism is exactly as sexist as masculinism....but point taken.

Please note that affirmative action absolutely is racist, though. It divides people into races then treats the different races differently...the very definition of racism. I don't see how denying that fact accomplishes anything, it just sets up a future problem that mirrors the one you're working to solve. Ignoring that means you likely won't stop the pendulum swing at the center and we'll be right back where we started eventually.

So I'm not a true feminist? I mean, I confess I wasn't born in Scotland but...

Semantics. I've argued them before.

I guess yes, feminism is as sexist as, say, affirmative action is racist. Making allowances for a disability, is, I suppose, a sort of discrimination too.

Anyway. What we call ourselves on the internet probably doesn't matter very much.

This.

You don't get gender equality by pitting feminists against MLM, you get people to leave both sides and work towards equality.

You don't get race equality by pitting the KKK against BLM, you get people to leave both sides and work towards equality.

You don't get religious equality by pitting Christianity versus Islam, you get people to advocate for equality.

The trouble is, there are so many people with the deep seated knowledge of how RIGHT they are and how WRONG their enemies are.

That's something else....gender equality.
True feminists will never fight to end an inequality they benefit from, neither will a mascilinist.
Those wishing to support gender equality should avoid supporting either sexist movement.

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You could argue that the issues that hold men down are generally caused by the same issues feminists are fighting for.

One of the biggest issues affecting men is suicide, especially in younger males. And one of the primary drivers of this is "macho" culture; the idea that it's not "manly" to ask for emotional help.

The other issue I hear about is fathers rights (a court will almost always side with a mother in a custody dispute). Again, this is caused by the idea that the woman should be looking after the children.

The irony is that the fundamental difference between men's issues and women's issues is actually the fundamental similarity: both are caused by societal structures that dictate the role of men and women.

The difference is that historically (and let's be honest, even today), men hold the power and make the rules.

retroactive revocation of consent is not a thing. If you think it is, you've probably been brainwashed by a feminist and need to start thinking for yourself. Unless you specifically have an agreement that you are only sleeping with someone because they have $x money in their bank account or some other explicit fact, you've just got regret.

Sometimes I feel like people have to expend a lot of effort to miss the point so well...

OH&S - We had a MSDS for Spray and Wipe in the office which required us to use gloves and a facemask. Ordinary surface cleaner. And it was enforced... This is what he is talking about. Taking what started as a good idea and going way too fucking far with it.

PC - You kinda prove the point right off the bat with "straight white dude". You're discriminating. You feel justified in doing so because white males are so fucking awful to everyone on the planet (it's true, I heard a feminist say so..), but it doesn't change the fact that it's discrimination. You're either politically correct all the time or you're a hypocrite. I happen to support your right to discriminate, but take issue with hypocrisy.

Smoking - Missing the point, the government makes it socially unacceptable, removes the places where you can do it, but leaves it as legal and runs up the cost to astronomical levels to keep the revenue rolling in. It's an innately contradictory position.

The bit on Ireland was more a commentary on the Irish than smoking...

And of course smokers are one of the few groups within society that almost no one will stand up to defend. Very easy to be non-PC and discriminate against (gotta let all those uptight PC dickheads vent their spleen somewhere I guess... =)

Forgot maybe the best example, last year Black Lives Matters Toronto shutdown the Toronto Pride parade to impose demands on the Pride organisation. A demand that the police be excluded from future Pride parades being a key demand that Pride had to agree to before the parade was able to continue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pride-parade-toronto-1.3662823


The special interest groups up here are graduating from taking on the "white supremacist"(their words) government in our country and are fully turning on each other now. BLM versus pride and Transgender rights versus Feminists, and on...

We've always got room to improve though because as a fellow Canadian I don't feel my country men are all similarly free.

Mike Ward, a comedian up here was sued for $35k because of a joke he made on set.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mike-ward-verdict-1.3688089

Greg Elliott disagreed with a feminist blogger over twitter and was hit a three year criminal trial over criminal harassment, including a bail condition throughout the trial banning him from internet access. His job relied on that internet access so even though he was cleared of all charges...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott

You aren't supposed to dress up as Mulan unless you are Asian, or even worse as Pocahantas unless your first nations.
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/universities-crack-down-on-offensive-halloween-costumes-at-campus-parties/wcm/b1b50639-0157-4a7d-b7fc-fd45718c4d6d

If you run want to run a Women's only naked spa, you still must allow those with male genitals entry or face a human rights commission complaint which is still in progress:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/body-blitz-transgender-policy-1.4158397

Those a re recent examples easy to mind, but this is pretty frequent.

The sick feeling in my stomach about sexual jokes about moms will go away when dads get demeaned by sexual jokes.

I know, I know, I am a snowflake feminist that wilts at the least mention of sexual degradation of women.

A woman can hope though.....

I never claimed to or would say I speak for all of any group. Congrats on assuming.

I fail to see how fighting against equal protection for trans people under hate crime laws isn't transphobic. And his flimsy defense of "it will force me to call someone something i dont want to" isn't true of the bill in the slightest if you read the thing and mostly a smoke screen for his distaste for trans acceptance. The place where Peterson works adopted almost identical protection for trans individuals in 2014. But he hasn't noticed or been effected... because it doesn't do what he thinks.

And your analogy is stupid and reductive. Someone being upset they can't call people "faggot" anymore because of PC nonsense doesn't put you on the same level of marginalized groups fighting for basic rights anymore than his refusal to accept that trans people get to self identify / get equal protection puts him anywhere close to the trans and gay people fighting at Stonewall for the right to exist.

Regardless of all of that, I wasn't talking to you and I was offering someone who seemed genuinely interested in the other side some view of that side. I'm not interested in the vitriol from some rando on the internet who has made being "anti-sjw/anti-feminist" an identity.