@newtboy,

??? How exactly do you figure cancellation of a billion dollar project is no where near the economic cost of blocking a border crossing for awhile at similar cost???

I'll tell you what the difference in Canada is, the dollars lost from the pipeline were being lost in Alberta, the dollars lost from the convoy were in Ontario. In Canada we've got a pretty sad history of if it happens to western provinces, it doesn't matter. Much like the urban/rural divide in the US. The response is pretty similar as well, the urban side just laughs at the loss of the stupid backwards country folk. When the same thing hits them though it's a national emergency.

I've tried pointing out costs and your just rejecting them out of hand , while whole hog accepting the highest estimates for the convoy cost as gospel truth. Like the literally a company walking from a multi-billion dollar project and you insist that's nothing and the days the border was blockaded clearly must have cost more...


For years now I've insisted that illegal blockades of worksites, job sites or trade routes should be met with prompt arrests and re-opening of the route/site.

Until January of this year, the entirety of the Liberal minded half of my country(Ottawa centric) called that authoritarian, repressive and were against the notion. Now I find myself in a weird spot, as suddenly that same crowd DOES want that action and more to be taken promptly. And the conservative crowd that agreed with me before is now kinda walking things back.

Economic disruption of the blockades was similar to the Mohawk blockade of railways about 2 years ago:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-rejects-police-intervention-to-put-an-end-to-blockades/

Similarly, mass lay offs and multi-billions of dollars of goods stuck sitting around waiting to get to the industries needing them.

Since at least 2012 the attempted expansion of an existing pipeline(Trans Mountain) was targeted continuously by blockades. Opposition and resulting delays leading to cost overruns so large that company ultimately halted the multi-billion dollar project.

In terms of dollars being lost, the convoy protest wasn't special. More over, the blockade of the border in Ontario that was causing the real economic damage was dismantled and removed before the 'emergency measures' were enacted. Which is to state, the emergency measures were primarily intended to clear out downtown Ottawa. In downtown Ottawa though, the damages were at minimum as localized as any of the lumber or pipeline blockades mentioned.


Prime Minister Trudeau couldn't be more unequivocal when he was expressing his support for the farmer protests in India and the Floyd protests in the US. Clip if you'd like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9EaSF6Y0eE

The protests in India absolutely did immensely more harm to India's economy than the convoy here did in Canada. The protests in support of Floyd were again unequivocally more violent than the convoy in Canada.

There really is no basis by which to point to the convoy's actions and find them in any way unique or distinct from multiple other protests within Canada, or ones abroad that have been either given more latitude, or outright embraced and supported.

The distinction as even you can't resist going after, is that their beliefs they are protesting for are stupid and wrong, so no right to protest for them. That isn't how the right to protest within a democracy should be allowed to work.

I also have to point out the 'ethical' argument isn't as cut and dry as you want to make it out either.
-Pipelines bad so blockading is good ignores the fact the same oil gets pumped regardless, it just gets loaded into trucks that burn even more oil to haul it and have a fair greater risk of accidents and spills.
-Defending the rights and lands of Aboriginal peoples(like at Coastal Gas Link site violently attacked with millions in damages while the convoy was being vilified for 'incitement') is anything but obvious. The Wet'suwet'en hereditary leaders made claim to parts of the pipeline route and demanded it be shut down. However, the same Wet'suwet'en people's multiple elected Band Councils signed on with their wishes to proceed with the project. In fact, ALL elected representatives of ALL the Bands with land along the route had ALL signed onto the project and wanting it to proceed. It is in no way obvious that ignoring the will of those other bands to favour the conflicting claims of the hereditary leaders is clearly the most respectful of the people's wishes.

The protests you mentioned didn’t halt commerce for huge swaths of your, and our country, did they? Severity and ubiquity of impacts matter.

Lemme ask you, did this protest ask for dialog, or outright refuse it?

None of the other protests intentionally caused as much collateral damage as possible. It’s not their cause, it’s their methodology and severity of the results.

It’s not about their cause du jure, it’s about their methods, causing economic damage as deep and widespread as possible. I’ll ask, did the other protests you mentioned try to shut the country down for their cause, or were they targeted against the industries/entities they were protesting?

I’m pretty certain that, had they not blocked freeways, border crossings, cities, and industries their protests wouldn’t be being broken up and protesters wouldn’t be arrested. Again, it’s not the why, it’s the how that’s an issue. Their methods aren’t the same as other tolerated protests in severity nor focus.

BUT…there is a significant difference, morally, ethically, and logically between protesting being murdered by police or protesting your last tiny bit of sovereign land or water sources being taken and permanently destroyed by oil companies, and protesting not getting a shot to have the privilege of traveling to another country. I’m far more prepared to be patient for life and death causes than ignorant inconvenience causes.

Edit: P.S. also, “fuck your feelings” goes both ways. These are the same people that took that stance for 4 years here (some still do). When you tell people “fuck your feelings” in response to any subject, any complaints, it’s pretty ridiculous to expect those same people to respect your feelings, especially while you honk a truck horn in their back yard all night for weeks. In my neighborhood, there would have been burning trucks night one, and peace night 2….but I’m a native Texan, kind of the opposite of a Canadian.

90%? You underestimate by 9.99% IMO.

I’ve seen assaults. I’ve seen disturbing the peace in residential neighborhoods 24/7 for weeks on end. I’ve seen what amounts to kidnapping (trapping people in their cars on the street and blockading them in).
BTW, we aren’t India, more money was lost at this one crossing than if you blockaded all of India for the same timeframe. In America, we don’t just let other people block our borders….that’s our thing!

No, the bridge was not part of a recent past long term blockade, no farmer blockade shut down auto manufacturing on both sides of the borders or weeks. You are incorrect.

Protests are acceptable, even if they cause inconvenience. Protests without an issue that last for weeks-months with the only intent being causing economic damage aren’t protests, they’re tantrums. These protesters didn’t know why they were there besides getting the liberal out of power through any means.

These “protesters” deserved nothing but ridicule, their anti vax position is ridiculous, they know it, and it’s moot because the mandates change with the severity of the outbreak, and are from both sides of the border….Trudeau can’t force America to drop our mandates, and border crossers must be vaccinated….period. Notice when the mandates being lifted soon was announced they didn’t leave but just changed their demands. It’s not a protest, it’s an economic blackmail attempt.

The problem there is most of the violence was not part of the BLM protests (despite the lies right wing media produced all 2020), they were often nearby, taking advantage of the lowered police presence outside the protests, and often was violence directed at BLM, not coming from them. The people terrorizing and inciting violence, shooting crowds, planting bombs, lighting fires, shooting police, etc were Proud boys and Boogaloo boys…far right anti protesters. The idiots carried their manifestos explaining the false flag operation when they committed their crimes, and were caught repeatedly.

They should have simply used tow trucks, confiscating every truck involved to be sold at auction to pay for some of the exorbitant costs, far more than all summer of BLM and anti BLM protests, btw.

This was a threat to your sovereignty, and wasn’t being addressed by other laws or means (sounded like the police chief was a fan).

Seizure is perfection, but should include oversight (I bet it really does, you aren’t America where we’ve made it legal for police to commit armed robbery with no oversight). Note- seizure is different from forfeiture. They’re likely freezing accounts, not seizing the funds, right? Details matter.

It’s not just what they’re protesting, they don’t even know that themselves, it’s how and where. That said, the total lack of support among the population counts. I would expect any protest protesting against it being illegal to eat live babies to get shut down fast, no matter how civil they were on the streets.

Lemme guess, a pipeline crossing sovereign native lands under protest? Going over aquifers? Through preserves? Pumping tar sands no one really wants?
Millions in damages are an hour of the truck protests. They’re designed to cost tens of millions per day…costing everyone not just the target of their protest.

No known connection to protesters, but you want there to be one and are upset they didn’t just fabricate one? It sounds incredibly likely they’re involved, but without evidence one shouldn’t assign culpability.

They have the right to say anything, they don’t have the right to silence all other discussion and action while they ramble and party for weeks-months because they have nothing to say, but are loving the disruption they’re causing. A strong democracy doesn’t support one tiny group negating the entire continent’s voice for months. That’s what this is, they said their peace by day 2, now it’s not a protest, it’s an economic attack trying to blackmail a country (nearly a continent) into abandoning public health for a TINY minority of morons who want special privileges.

Wait….so you are saying you see no difference between this protest and BLM (besides the skin color of the protesters)….but you are in favor of this and vehemently against BLM?…and you don’t see the blatant racism? LMFAHS!!

Sorry, no.
Only racist tools like you refuse to see both the similarities and differences.

Threatening, fighting, closing businesses, loudly occupying residential neighborhoods (truckers for weeks, also blocking the border crossing with the most commerce for weeks to disrupt both economies,) and definitely some killing by Covid carrying truckers. Sounds similar with truckers causing more damage and disruption to the innocent.

No false flag attacks by the left, (killing, burning, bombing, shooting cops, ) all done dressed as and pretending to be truckers. Many false flag attacks by the right (killing, burning, bombing, killing cops,) all done dressed as and pretending to be BLM activists, caught and admitted to, dumb shit. Sounds pretty different without a misinformation campaign by right wing media and false flag operation by right wingers.

Sounds to me and the rest of the world like the tiny minority of unpopular truckers have done exponentially more economic damage and likely killed more through Covid….and done so because they’re cowardly self centered snowflakes afraid to get a tiny shot in order to gain a privilege, not because people who look like them are being murdered in the streets daily by a government sponsored gang with immunity and have been for the lifespan of our nation.

Only cultists like you refuse to see or admit it, it’s blatant and obvious. You act like a child covered in chocolate trying to lie that you didn’t eat the cake, Bob. You convince no one with your denials, because we see what you say before and after them. You only make yourself a liar, but that’s nothing new.

Self centered babies are gone now, lost their trucks, many lost their Canadian driver’s license maybe for life, some going to prison. Now what are they going to protest now that they can’t drive their trucks across the border ever again? Losers.

Derp. Such a racist tool…consistently and constantly.

THE PEOPLE?!? THE PEOPLE are firmly against THESE very few people who think their imagined rights trump everyone else’s actual rights.

Isn’t it funny how much of a problem you had with black people protesting being murdered and imprisoned for their skin color, you were outraged they disrupted traffic and business….but when white truckers do exponentially worse, much more economic damage to protest their having to get a tiny pin prick to secure a privilege (sniveling little crybabies that they are) you are 100% in favor of disrupting traffic and business to the extreme.

Clearly having to get a small shot to have the privilege of free travel between countries is far more draconian and a much bigger, more serious issue than having zero recourse against being gunned down in the streets and in their own homes by organized thugs with immunity from prosecution and military equipment, and of course that makes the disruptions to economies and livelihoods not just excusable but laudable.
Holy fucking shit, dude.

Maybe it’s true you aren’t actively racist, I’m not there to see, but it is definitely true you always stand with active racists and against equality under the law on every single issue.

A German mark had value….until it didn’t. Your opinion of “fiat money” isn’t universal by any stretch. You say it’s universally better. I wholeheartedly disagree, and point to Germany and Venezuela as proof. They aren’t outliers either, (looking at Africa).

Gold is useful and valuable. Digital footprints aren’t. Paper notes aren’t. Printed circuits, connectors, anti oxidation, actual physical money, jewelry, etc. gold has intrinsic value, a dollar bill has about 13210 joules, so its intrinsic worth is about 1 small 1 gram stick as kindling and little more….no matter if it’s a $1 or $500 bill or a check for billions. Again, see Germany, where bills were more valuable as firewood than money.

This deflation idea again. Give me 3 examples of deflation harming/ending a nation on the gold standard please, I’ve never heard of it happening. (Edit: as far as I can find, I’m no economics professor, for the most part the gold standard was abandoned worldwide in the early 1930’s and the last remnants removed in the early 70’s by Nixon)

Explain how unsecured notes guard against speculation….don’t just claim it. I don’t see it, people made a mint short selling Venezuelan (and other failed) dollars….speculating they would crash….they did. What?

GDP is the metric that imparts value to unsecured notes offered by countries.

I think you had a mini stroke, the paragraph starting USofA is a word salad with no meaning.

Name 3. I named Germany post ww1….they didn’t get to borrow or ignore their debts. What are you talking about?

So, the only ones that don’t/can’t borrow are all the ones that need to.

Pretending basing your dollar on Bitcoin is the same as basing it on gold is outrageous idiotic bullshit. Just nonsense. Utterly moronic and pure fantasy. Don’t try moving the goalposts, that’s what you said.

Yes, the fed will take gold. They don’t take Bitcoin, do they? How about shells? Pebbles?

Jesus, you just want to argue. You’re rambling, switching positions and going off on tangents.
It’s not about whether someone might accept it, it’s about whether it’s universally accepted at one value and about holding its accepted long term value. People once gladly accepted beanie babies as payment….stupid people.
Arcata Ca printed up Arcata dollars….you could get them cheap, businesses took them. Wanna put your nest egg into them? You say that’s good money, as good as dollars. I’ll sell them to you for gold, and let’s see who’s doing better in 10 years. Or I’ll sell you pebbles for gold. Any currency you want, I’ll sell you for gold. How’s that working with pebbles or shells? Can you buy currency with them?

It has everything to do with how much it’s worth. Stop jumping subjects because your point is failing to convince. An economy based on pebbles fails because their neighbors don’t value pebbles, but if their pebbles are gold, they succeed because gold is valued universally.

What are you talking about, the gold standard’s ability to keep up? Huh?! No keep up necessary, no slow down required, gold trades exactly as fast as everything else. What is this nonsense?!?

You mean you can’t overspend and go deep into debt?! And that’s bad?! In your opinion, not many economists….and what makes you think you can’t borrow against gold? Secured loans are easier and cheaper to come by. WHAT?!?

Yes, unsecured paper money can just be printed forever, you CAN “sell the universe”. (Or sell dollars who’s overall value is based on your country’s value) over and over, then print more and sell 9/10 again, print more, sell again. Eventually that money is worth less than it costs to print, and your creditors get paid off in dollars worth a tiny fraction of what they lent you. Not if it’s backed with gold.

Miracle cure?!? Quote it. I think you misread. Secured notes being better than unsecured notes is not “miracle cure” or perfection, it’s just measurably better, safer, and more stable. No system is perfect.

A dollar has value if you can buy shit for a dollar.

Gold likewise has no exchange value if you cant exchange it for goods and services. Its rare and chemically stable and good for memorial coins, has many technical uses and looks cute, but otherwise it hardly matters what symbol for money you choose. There is 200 years of experience with fiat money and gold and silver standards and fiat money has been better, not just usually better or better in some scenario, universally better.

Symbolic money is practical and facilitates quicker turn around prevents deflation makes speculative runs on currency harder and smoothes the economic bumps in the road in general.

GDP is just a metric. Not a bad one but not the actual goal.

USofA is teh most developed. Should have used growing. Deflation in an economy that is growing kills growth.

Restarting countries not only get to ignore their debts, they immediatelly start borrowing again.

The only countries that dont borrow are countries no-one will lend to and countries so rich in some silly resource they can float high in the international currency system without borrowing. Borrowing is good for bussiness.

What is outrageous idiotic bullshit? Believing pegging the value of your paper note to some hoarded luxury makes it a better representation of the mean value of goods and services bought and sold? I could do without gold except for the jacks on my audio cables (just kidding). It does not matter what I exchange for food and gas, if it gets me food and gas, its good money.

Money is what you can pay taxes with. Do they take gold?

If you insist your dollar has the value of some weight of gold how does that influence the willingness of someone else to sell you shit? Unless they specifically intend to buy gold at a fixed price they dont care. They are going to use your dolar to buy some other shit from someone else. So if you take the actual currency out of the equation, when you decide on buying and selling shit you are intuitively comparing that decision with all the other decisions about buying and sellin that you know of. The currency is just a good way to count the measure of usefullness of a product or service and compare among many. Pebbles, bottletops, dollars, gold, pearls, all just a number.

A dollar could be backed by gold or it could not, this has zero impact on the transactions made. What matters is how many transactions are made, at what value, and how much money is available to the entire marketplace in a given period of time. Transactions quickly pass the ability of a gold standard to keep up. If you want a gold standard you have to slow transactions down because you dont have the money for them.

This is why markets need some regulation, otherwise someone might sell the universe twice and then default on one. But a gold standard, at least the type of gold standard I believe was talked about in this thread as a miracle cure, would be too limiting.

If youre a normal country you are always living on credit, if for no other reason, then because it is super easy and cheap to borrow. Also you have to, to make it to the next pay check (tax collection). First your subjects have to produce and sell, then you can collect taxes.

You dont base the value of the dollar on anything. You offer it as a commodity to the market. If your economy sucks or you print too much money the dollar goes down, which can help the economy. Printing money doesnt automatically help the economy though, it just creates space and time to make it possible for the economy to improve.

Improving the economy means creating more or better products and services that are in demand at a competitive cost. Governments in non-dictatorial countries cant really do that directly, they can only create the conditions for this to happen.

Moderate inflation hardly plays a part, except as a moderator (is that a pun?) of shocks. Deflation (and a strong gold standard in a developing economy IS deflation) is deadly, it makes the economy less flexible, less able to adjust.

If you never improve your ecomomy, all you will have left will be to bitch about inflation.

What is too much debt, too much inflation, too much intervention? I wish economics was a science.

Theoretically the economy can get to be so bad that the structure collapses, there are countries which have notoriously bad historical records, and yet every time they restart they have to borrow money to get things going again. Reserves in general are useless. Production, services and a functioning market, recursive production of valuable goods and services which freely and easily find customers is the only thing you can consider a reliable pillar of civilization. Currency is one of those goods and services.

If for any reason yor currency cant freely circulate (see China or the USSR errr... Russia) you can hardly be a superpower, at least not in the economic sense.

Adopting a gold standard so strong that it would destroy the international dollar standard has no advantage for the USofA or for any developed first world country. Even just having the Euro wreaks havoc in weaker European countries economies, but that is another can of worms.

A lot of what is wrong about the gold standard would apply if a country decided to adopt bitcoin as its sole currency btw.

There are 2 things.
Inflation.
Biden.
Correlation is not causation.

There are also only two things that can safely be done to combat inflation - raise interest rates (not Bidens job), and actually govern well, make sure public spending is going to the right places instead of fuelling the spiral. That is difficult to evaluate from a distance and at this time, but Biden still has a chance there. Unfortunately the results will only come in over a period of years if not decades. The good thing is that Biden is less ideologically bound than Trump. Trump just lowered taxes for rich people, that was his only economic plan.

Implying current inflation is Bidens fault is like blaming covid on Trump. Its the covid response that can be pinned on Trump based on numbers we have now, after the fact.

How Bidens administration does when challenged will be evaluated in a couple of years time. I am curious why the fed is reluctant to raise the rate at the moment.

Just dont blame the mountain rescuers for the avalanche.

The cars compared were as I described. There are no truly comparable electric vehicles available today. Somehow you think that’s a dig at Tesla? It’s a compliment, and a lament.

Not at all. I would love one. They have made missteps however.
Not a fan of Musk.
What should be clear is I’m not a fan of bullshit.

I’m also not a fan of monopolies.
I’m also not a fan of successful companies bargaining away their tax liabilities for little in return for the public.
I’m not really a fan of space tourism for billionaires either, not while poverty exists. What a waste of resources for no return.

Chip shortages are the only real obstacle, the rest are speed bumps.

It’s a problem if you don’t want to pay $60k for a $25k car…I thought inflation was bad. Now you love it?

Tesla made deals to not pay taxes. You can pretend that’s patriotic, it’s not. I didn’t say they ignored or committed fraud to escape taxes, I said they don’t pay them. That kind of agreement shouldn’t be acceptable for any company, especially one as profitable as Tesla. Yes, it’s a “the governor and/or legislature can waive taxes for companies he likes” policy issue, I find it abhorrent no matter which party does it, they both do.

If you backroom deal with right wing governors/legislatures to avoid taxes, you are far right, at least economically. I thought he came out as a Trump guy too, but might be wrong.

LMFAHS!!
Sydney Powell, Trump’s ex lawyer, is defending herself from disbarment for filing numerous frivilous lawsuits….her defense? “Maybe my claims are true”…her evidence? “Many people believe it (after I spent months convincing them, even after I admitted it was just hyperbole not fact), and “many Republican legislatures are creating biased election laws to fight against the frauds I claimed…..so maybe it’s true.”
That’s not a defense, it’s not even a debate point, and it’s so ridiculous it might lead to her defense lawyer being disbarred!
Oh my god, your team really relied on stealing power then ignoring your own criminal acts that put you there, didn’t you? Trump’s promise to pardon the insurectionists if they return him to power is just more proof of that. With the records Trump tried to hide, steal, burn, shred, etc mostly being recovered, things are looking pretty shitty for your “destroy democracy and blame anyone else” “murderous violent sedition is legitimate political discourse” “wasn’t me” team.
What steaming pieces of feculence the right has become, top to bottom.

So anti democratic, so un-American, but that’s all your party is now, anti American obstructionism and election frauds to cling to the power you have left after Trump squandered 100% control of government with nothing to show for it but failures, economic collapse, and mass death.

Let me remind you….you are still one of the 30% that think Trump did a good job (by what metric I can’t tell….not economic, not infrastructure, not public health, not jobs, not the state of the union, not trust in government, not international standing, not trade, not lower crime, not cooperation (government or civil), not by simplifying the tax code, not by lowering spending….so how, how did he succeed, by bankrupting the treasury to give welfare to billionaires? The only thing he actually won are titles for most corrupt administration in history hands down, first to be impeached twice, only president ever to deny certified election results, first to attempt to falsify election results, first to attempt to overthrow a valid election by force, and biggest debt by 1/3 and biggest deficit by far more than double.).

You are also one of the 30% that, after months of denying Republican involvement at all now thinks violently attacking the government with bombs, fire, guns, knives, tear gas, projectiles, and heavy clubs, killing police and trying to murder representatives is a great job, patriotic. 🤦‍♂️

You are also one of the 30% who denied Covid was ever an issue that needed to be addressed until Jan 20, 2021 when it suddenly was horrific and all the president’s responsibility….but no fucking way in hell you’re going to listen to his advice.

Bob, I couldn’t say the last time you were correct on any topic. I may be incorrect up to 5% of the time, and gladly accept true correction (but not simple obstinate contradiction without fact) and willingly admit mistakes. I actually research. You are totally wrong on every detail closer to over 95% of the time, you’ve never once even looked into the ridiculous claims you cut and paste from right wing propaganda sites…I doubt you would know how, and never once have you admitted a single of your uncountable and verified mistakes that you make in every single argument you attempt….and I’m talking about factual mistakes, not grammar.

Let me also remind you, Biden has a 42% approval rating, not 30%. Trump had 39% at this point. 🤦‍♂️

Mea culpa.
>$4.5 trillion last year alone, and Trump’s insistence that he could spend as much as he liked and just print more for 4 years guarantees high inflation as long as the economy grows…there was a delay thanks to the 2020 economic stagnation but we’re seeing the effects now.

BTW, can you tell me what the Republican plan is to solve these 3 issues?
(three of your complaints were the same issue, oil, and at least 3/5 are not factual or omit the reason inflation was down and oil was cheaper last year is 2020’s disastrous leadership exacerbating the pandemic, and causing economic collapse….inflation was about 4.2% sept-sept. Time to raise rates from zero and stop handing corporations free loans.)

…because McConnell has announced that, once again, the Republicans will have absolutely no party platform in 2022, no goals they’ll admit publicly beyond “stop the president”, no plans at all for how to fix anything you claim Biden broke. Obstructionism is the entirety of what Republicans stand for in the next election….obstructionism and clinically insane conspiracy theories….but they wear your jersey so you’ll vote for them and chant the slogans like a good little rube.

Edit: Because you clearly don’t know, Trump is by far the best at dumping gdp into the septic tank….-3.5% q1 2020. -33%q2. Biggest drop by far in living history including the Republican led recessions of the 80’s and 2000’s. His last year total is a negative 3.5%…and you’re complaining about single digit inflation!!! Ha!
Just like the debt and deficit, the economy only matters to the right when Democrats are in power, and is completely out of their control and not their problem when Republicans are. Trump in 4 years spent more than Obama in 8 without starting deep in a recession he ended (but instead ending by starting one) and without creating a national health care system or anything beneficial…instead of tax and spend he tried refund and spend double on monuments to divisiveness, on credit if possible.