Do not try at home, kids.

@ponceleon (for a response to your Dark Matter questions see above)

First off, I'd like to thank you for a very interesting discussion. It is through such dialogue that we clarify our thoughts, and your responses have really helped me explore many different ideas.

I'd like to start out by explaining why I responded to your post in the first place. Your initial post called for the end of all religion. It seemed to be a gross overreaction to the clip. You seemed to be equating every single religious person with a fanatic Muslim willing to kill for his beliefs.

You very clearly place a high value on reason and logical thought. My initial purpose in posting, then, was to show you how illogical it is to condemn an entire group of people for the actions of a few individuals. You would not consider it reasonable to call for an end to Democracy simply because some people have started wars in the name of Democracy (see Lawdeedaw's post above). It is just as illogical to call for an end to all religion because some people have committed evil in the name of religion. Likewise, just because Sarah Palin blew some hot air on national TV about fruit flies, it doesn't logically follow that all religious people are against science. Or that they all want to convert you. That's another gross over-generalization. As a refutation, I provide the example of two of the worlds biggest religions--Buddhism and Hinduism--which co-exist peacefully with multiple other religions and do not try impose their teachings on those who don't voluntarily come seeking them.

So that was my original point, basically. Your initial call for an end to religion wasn't logical, reasonable, or even plausible. How could you accomplish it? By force? That would rob you of the moral high ground. By law? In the U.S., at least, you would face the problem that freedom of religion is guaranteed in the Constitution.

Given the improbability of a religious-free world anytime in the near future (almost certainly not our lifetimes) wouldn't it be better to use our intellectual powers for figuring out how to get along? And how to deal humanely with those radicals and fundamentalists who refuse to try to get along or insist on imposing their views on others? Personally, I feel that is a much better use of our time and energy than trying to ban religion outright.

This will be my last post here. I'll let you have the last word on the matter. If you want to continue talking about this or other things, send me a profile reply. However, I'm very busy with work right now and might not be able to reply right away, so I apologize for that.

>> ^ponceleon:

@SGD Ah I think we are coming a bit closer together here, but you are backpeddling a bit.
There is a BIG difference between you telling me that it is MY job as a rational person to disprove the existance of God the Son and the Holy ghost, v. telling me that dark matter is unmeasurable.
You see, Dark Matter is based on actual calculations and rational deliberation which leads scientists to see that something is missing from their model. As it turns out, I'm willing to CONSIDER dark matter as a possibility because it is based on something thought out and observable (though itself it may not be). That said, I would not be surprised at all if it turns out to be bunk. But that's the great part of science, Dark Matter can turn out to be real or not real and NO SCIENTIST is going to FATWAH me for believing on either side. It's exactly as you say.
As for why religion needs to go, well it is exactly for the reason you state: they DO try to force their views on others. When Sarah Palin, champion of the religious nuts in this country, gets up and tells us that fruit fly research is "silly and pointless" I see that as highly dangerous and definitely something that needs to be addressed. Killing and threatening artists. Suicide Bombers, child-abuse cover-ups, intelligent design, Jesus camps, invading the west bank, female oppression, and good christians don't vote for Obama.... all great examples of how "good teachings" of a religion have been cast aside in favor of fear, hate mongering, and irrational behavior.
Religion has forced itself on human culture for all of our history and while some good has come of it, a great portion of the bad in the world can be traced back to someone listening to a magical being in their head (or as I often suspect, saying they do in order to sway uneducated masses).
So in conclusion, I think you are now a lot closer to me in what I mean (though I fall on the other side of the argument when it comes to the usefulness of religion), but I do think you backpedaled a bit. Dark Matter /= Jesus.

You can't escape politics; even in academia I couldn't escape it.

‘Escape’? I encounter it, but am fortunate enough to be in a position where it does not impact my day to day job function.

It surprises me that you are too lazy to develop yourself so that you are in a position to get your ideas across. You seem to be a person that values hard work in the face of adversity.

I’m in a top-heavy organization, and the last thing it needs is another manager. With only about 1,200 employees we have 7 people at the “EO” level, 50+ VPs, 125+ directors. Believe me, we are no-where near short of ‘chiefs’. We need more ‘indians’ – more highly qualified & skilled professionals. It’s a good company; I see no need to try to ‘manage’. To do so would turn the nature of my work away from in-depth analysis towards a more simple, business-decision oriented truncated approach. I’d move from data, to budgets. From study to meetings. I prefer to tear a topic down to its roots rather than skim above it at 50,000 feet.

In the face of uncertainty, 'gut feel' and the intuition derived from experience often does trump a fancy stochastic model.

I don’t have a beef with QUALIFIED people who make a decision against data. I have great respect for business guys who are skilled, intelligent, thoughtful, and have the ability to make a ‘gut’ business decision after weighing the options. Such people can take my detailed analysis – put it in the hopper – and make a decision that isn’t totally data-driven, but accounts for other things. The reason my company does well is because most of the business guys are of this sort. I respect them, and don't feel the need to add myself to their number when there are more than enough of them to take care of things. I'm best off where I am - doing the detail research they don't have time for.

Obama is he is NOT that kind of person. He is the ‘other’ kind that you meet in a business meeting... They have made a decision before they walk in the door, or have heard a single fact. They do not try to learn, or educate themselves, or respectfully consider other experts when making decisions. They only seek to justify decisions that they already made in everyone’s absence. Such persons are more than happy to use data - but only as long as it agrees with what they want. The second the data disagrees with them then the tiniest, most illogical of excuses will suffice to bat it aside as faulty. Thankfully there aren't too many of them where I work. But they're there sometimes.

When Obama encounters someone who presents facts, research, opinions, or approaches contrary to his own – he manifests himself as the small, petty, vapid man that typifies this sort of ‘bad’ business decision maker. The good ones are precious. The ‘bad’ ones like Obama are a blight on any organization they darken with their odious presence.

How many times did Bush screw up words, sentences, and concepts, trying to make a point

Did you see the thread, “Why do Republicans believe lies about Obama”? In it, people say that news-driven talking points are sucked up by intellectual sponges and parroted back unthinkingly. Your opinion about Bush is based on the very same practice, but sponsored by the left. It was grossly exaggerated. Bush did a lot of dumb things, but he proved himself more competent and intelligent than Obama in many respects. Obama can't handle himself with diplomacy (case in point with Isreal), but Bush did it easily and naturally.

You say I ‘don’t get it’. I can only shrug and say you are the victim of groupthink, and have no logical grounds for your specious position. For example – you say I supply no list of economists. I can easily do so.

http://www.adsavvy.org/consensus-war-300-top-economists-disagree-with-obamas-no-disagreement-remark/

But – as is usual – folk of your stripe will ignore fact and try to weasel away from the reality that I've proven you completely, totally, and irrevocably wrong. I am the one here that provides links, data, and information to justify my arguments. People such as yourself only climb up on rhetorical soap-boxes and fling poo.

Obama is no marxist. His policies are centrist liberal.

How is an administration ‘centrist liberal’ when it moves to take over the financial industry, the automotive industry, the medical industry, the insurance industry, and energy – while at the same time feeding billions in stimulus money to big unions & trial lawyers? All of Obama’s positions are RADICALLY far-left. Isreal, education, taxes, role of government, deficit spending, Supreme court nominee, you name the issue and Obama has proven he is way out left. This is why independent and moderate voters (who voted for him) have abandoned him in droves to the point where his approval rating is cratering to George W. Bush levels.

>> ^Memorare:
(looking in a mirror)... huh???


Do not try and bend the mirror. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth................

There is no mirror


Then you'll see, that it is not the mirror that bends, it is only you.

that was a fantastic video!you should post it.i think its a valuable component and a great tutorial.
i agree wholeheartedly with the videos premise,and i think it also strengthens my position.
let me explain:
the reason why i stated it would be futile to argue one way other the other matters concerning faith was expressed quite eloquently in the video you shared.
i have no concrete evidence or data that can concretely convince you of anything.however,i do not reject or dismiss the findings of science in order for me to retain my faith.so while you will find me agreeing with you on many subjects concerning science,you will also find i will not put any facts on the table concerning my faith.because there are no facts and i am very aware of this.
maybe it would help if i gave you an idea how i view things:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Perceiving-Reality-A-useful-philosophy
notice the lack of dogma?of a bearded white dude with jealous,genocidal tendencies?
a total lack of judgment?
the video i shared is a very over-simplified explanation of how i view reality.
could i be wrong?
of course.my faith is not based on a book,or a theology so i have the freedom to be curious and ask questions.my faith is organic in its ability to evolve along with my understand of the universe.so if anything defines my faith,it would be science.
which is only limited by our ability to observe and test.
in my opinion,science is the testing and validating the observable physical universe.basically..the study of the creator.the more science uncovers the more that is revealed that is beautiful,poetic and far more complicated than any doctrine or dogma could ever imagine.

i state i am a man of faith because thats what it is..faith.i have faith that we all have a divine spark.a part of us that is sacred and connected to the creator/god/goddess/buddha/the All,whatever you wish to call it.we are all co-creators..we are all just "potential",raw and un-tapped.i cannot prove with any conclusive evidence that what i feel/think is correct.so it must be called what it is...faith.
we are mind/body/spirit.
i say this with conviction,but i have no way to prove this to you,and to try without any measurable means would insult you.so i dont try.

i shall give you one example where i hope you have experienced to relate,somewhat ,to what i am attempting to convey:
ever love a woman? ever love her so completely that when you were together it seemed you fell into her?and she you?where you both seemed to have created a space that was so lovely as to be over-powering?that when you were together time seemed to stop?
would you be insulted if someone said to you "bah,thats just chemicals and hormones.nothing more,nothing less".
but you KNEW..it was more,and to reduce it to mere chemicals and hormones just cheapened the experience.and if it IS just chemicals and hormones,electric synapses firing.then we should be able to replicate this affect yes?
but we cant..not yet at least.
is there something more? is it possible?
understand i am not trying to convince you of anything,i am just asking the same questions i ask myself.one of the millions i ask myself.
i left the church at 14 due to my pastors absolute failure to answer my questions.
because if you do a little research and study the history of the bible,qu'ran,torah et'al dogma and doctrine will fall short everytime.they are man made...its obvious.
but what of those questions?the answers is what i find most intimate and revealing.

i believe,through the experiences and encounters,that we are more than our sum parts.what that actually is,i do not know,but i am "faithful" we are more and shall continue to ask the questions.it is also for this reason i do not try to convince anybody else that my "faith" is valid in their eyes.that would be me seeking validation,and i need none.

the only thing i am wary of,and i think its a large reason why i do not attempt to convince anybody of my faith,is the trap of conflation.to use information and mold it to fit my world view.religious people do this ad nauseum,as do consprisy(sp?) theorists and politicians.while being faithful may fly in the face of logic,i do my best to employ logic as often as i can.
but when your questions deal with things outside the realm of the phyisical universe sometimes all you have is faith.

i am thoroughly enjoying this conversation my friend.i am doing my best to construct complete sentences and paragraphs for you.but i am the run-on-sentence king.you on the other hand,write beautifully.
thank you very much for your insight my friend.
the conversation continues.
till next time...namaste.

Maybe I'm jaded because I work in healthcare - I try pretty hard to keep myself healthy. Many of my patients do not try at all, and are now very sad, physically sick people that require all sorts of medical help just to live a normal life.

I also have money saved to pay for medical expenses, the insurance that I have has a very high deductable. That means if there is a medical expense under $8k I pay it out of pocket. That seems reasonable - the health insurance I have is there to cover unexpected costs. If I go to the doctor, I pay the doctor, not my insurance company, not extra taxes. If I take an ambulance ride and need a limb reattached it costs me $8k (pretty reasonable) and the insurance company loses the gamble they took when they wrote the policy for me.

I don't want government provided healthcare because when someone who did not prepare for their eventual decline in health (either by being unhealthy or being unlucky) I will have to pay for it (increased taxes) and then my ability to be prepared for my eventual decline in health will be reduced. Why am I the one paying to keep an unhealthy person treated - when I have to keep myself healthy and pay for my own treatment? It seems a little backwards to me.

You cant pick and choose your rules. Either you enforce em, or you do not.

Keep personal thoughts, and emotions out of your distribution of punishment. Doing this would not cause the dissent that I see in this sift talk.

I read some of the profile responses in the punishment phase of today's drama. When punishing some one for a blatant violation of the rules, do not try to reason with them or apply apologetic ointment.

The fact that you are punishing them is enough.

In short, trial is where you talk. Punishment is where you punish, they are two separate things. The latter is a place where politics can only succeed in furthering drama.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

The vid claims to wonder, "why can't we all just celebrate the rich variety of shelves?" while at the same time it roundly condemns and lampoons his parents, his friends, and others for having chosen a particular set of shelves. It claims to want to celebrate diversity and freedom, while actively mocking others for having exercised it in ways the author personally did not agree with. It is hypocrisy most blatant, and utterly negates the supposed message the video is claiming to try and communicate.


No it doesn't. It never condemns them at all, what it condemns is his parent's closed mindedness. Their telling him to shut up when he tries to express his thoughts, their punishing him for thinking. THAT is what it is showing. IT NEVER condemns them for having their beliefs. It also IN NO WAY condemns Sanjeev. What it is showing there is how annoyed someone can be if you say to them 'Hey, what you believe is completely wrong', and to try to then force on said person that your beliefs are the only beliefs that are correct.

So you have come at this video with a preconceived notion of what it will be and then saw what you wanted to. You don't get it at all. They never say anyone is foolish for believing what they do, for their particular set of shelves, what they show is how harmful and closed minded it is to put down and discount someone purely based on their beliefs in some higher power.

Now... you have an issue with Atheists trying to stand up for SCIENCE... in almost every video you see you will see that what us Atheists are standing up for is Science. NOT whether you believe in something or not, but these people who choose to believe in the Bible, and then try to force what is written in there onto people who instead have actually learned how the world and the things in it work. DO NOT try to tell us that evolution is wrong, when it is obviously and demonstratively correct. DO NOT try to tell us that man and dinosaurs lived together and that the T-Rex lived on plants as THAT IS WRONG.

Debate all you like about things we do not know (the existence of a divine being), but do not try to use bullshit to pull the wool over people's eyes about scientific fact. THAT, and the condemning people for not believing in YOUR god is what gets Atheists going

>> ^spoco2:
First Jewish person: Ok, I don't get the arguments of either side there, I don't know what the people were on the street for to begin with, but that sort of hatred and the wishing of death on people is just wrong. Wishing for them to be dead and for their children to piss on their bones? That's not loving, compassionate or right in any sense of the words.
Ahh, Israel vs Palestine... what a happy, fun loving set of people they all are. All those people wishing death on each other. Isn't it grand?
Oh those absolutely disgusting Christians spouting hate and vitriol to children in regards to a children's book. The Harry Potter books are about acceptance of others, they speak of the racism and religious persecution, and that might be why these horrible, narrow minded people are scared of them. Because they say that maybe everyone isn't so damn different, that perhaps people can believe in different things as long as you LET THEM. Don't FORCE your beliefs on people, ESPECIALLY NOT CHILDREN. You're scaring and scarring them for life.
Bush doesn't see the issues in mixing religion and government, and that made him one scary, and terrible leader.
The Westboro Baptist church: A church built on the hatred of one man, and almost entirely peopled by his deluded offspring. Horrible person who is small minded, full of rage, full of hate, and just needs to spout hate to feel alive. Pity them and their lack of people able to live full lives of joy, because they spend all their time being angry.
Haggard and the gay hooker: I don't know HOW people can continue to follow ANY church that has things like this happen. They spend all their time being told that homosexuality is WRONG and SINFUL and disgusting, and yet the LEADER of said church is gay. They have such self loathing for being gay because they believe it to be wrong... but they can't see that the act of being gay, or having feeling towards someone of the same sex IS NOT IN ANY WAY WRONG. What harm does it do? NOTHING.
Religion having any baring AT ALL on scientific eduction is WRONG WRONG WRONG. It is disgusting that it has been allowed to have ANY influence AT ALL.
Trying to suggest that America was founded as a relgious, and christian nation, and in any way created to destroy any other religions IS DISGUSTING AND FALSE. The founding fathers of America saw it as a place TO AVOID persecution. That everyone was FREE TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED. As long as you do not try to force your religious beliefs on anyone else, then you can believe anything you like.

So, great video for showing all this... And if you're going to say "Hey, why don't they show the pastor from Obama's church at then end too"... well, do we have Obama bringing him up on a stage anywhere and espousing his views as being fantastic and being a great leader? Do we? We have a lot of him denouncing him... I don't know of any doing the opposite.


Good, but I think your wrong on the bush thing, from what I got from his barely coherent ramblings, the idea of a god that he suggested was one that was more akin to an Einstein type god, not one that watches us to see if we have been bad or good, like santa.

That's my interpretation.

* First Jewish person: Ok, I don't get the arguments of either side there, I don't know what the people were on the street for to begin with, but that sort of hatred and the wishing of death on people is just wrong. Wishing for them to be dead and for their children to piss on their bones? That's not loving, compassionate or right in any sense of the words.

* Ahh, Israel vs Palestine... what a happy, fun loving set of people they all are. All those people wishing death on each other. Isn't it grand?

* Oh those absolutely disgusting Christians spouting hate and vitriol to children in regards to a children's book. The Harry Potter books are about acceptance of others, they speak of the racism and religious persecution, and that might be why these horrible, narrow minded people are scared of them. Because they say that maybe everyone isn't so damn different, that perhaps people can believe in different things as long as you LET THEM. Don't FORCE your beliefs on people, ESPECIALLY NOT CHILDREN. You're scaring and scarring them for life.

* Bush doesn't see the issues in mixing religion and government, and that made him one scary, and terrible leader.

* The Westboro Baptist church: A church built on the hatred of one man, and almost entirely peopled by his deluded offspring. Horrible person who is small minded, full of rage, full of hate, and just needs to spout hate to feel alive. Pity them and their lack of people able to live full lives of joy, because they spend all their time being angry.

* Haggard and the gay hooker: I don't know HOW people can continue to follow ANY church that has things like this happen. They spend all their time being told that homosexuality is WRONG and SINFUL and disgusting, and yet the LEADER of said church is gay. They have such self loathing for being gay because they believe it to be wrong... but they can't see that the act of being gay, or having feeling towards someone of the same sex IS NOT IN ANY WAY WRONG. What harm does it do? NOTHING.

* Religion having any baring AT ALL on scientific eduction is WRONG WRONG WRONG. It is disgusting that it has been allowed to have ANY influence AT ALL.

* Trying to suggest that America was founded as a relgious, and christian nation, and in any way created to destroy any other religions IS DISGUSTING AND FALSE. The founding fathers of America saw it as a place TO AVOID persecution. That everyone was FREE TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED. As long as you do not try to force your religious beliefs on anyone else, then you can believe anything you like.


So, great video for showing all this... And if you're going to say "Hey, why don't they show the pastor from Obama's church at then end too"... well, do we have Obama bringing him up on a stage anywhere and espousing his views as being fantastic and being a great leader? Do we? We have a lot of him denouncing him... I don't know of any doing the opposite.

>> ^firefly:
dupe?
http://www.videosift.com/video/Inferno-Downhill-Skateboa
rd-Run-Do-Not-Try-This-At-Home


yup
*discars

dupe?
http://www.videosift.com/video/Inferno-Downhill-Skateboard-Run-Do-Not-Try-This-At-Home

Kids, do not try this at home!

>> ^Aemaeth:
>> ^schmawy:
I just Google Image searched "joyce dewitt". I need help.

Wow. DO NOT TRY THIS!


Aw, you guys, now I have to do it...

>> ^schmawy:
I just Google Image searched "joyce dewitt". I need help.


Wow. DO NOT TRY THIS!