Excellent question…and I point out that only Trump spent millions of his own money for a $200k job…and his family made BILLIONS with no exaggeration and no assumptions, guesses, or theories, it’s a proven and under investigation fact. Biden didn’t have tens of millions to spend, his son didn’t either much less billions he’s accused of taking, and his family isn’t directly profiting from being in a nepotistic administration, getting “gifts” from hostile foreign powers in the tens and hundreds of millions, or in Jared’s case, BILLIONS from the Saudis.

Trump exhibits every single tenet of fascism-
WIKI- Fascism - a far-RIGHT, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Sounds exactly like the Trump right to me….and an impossibility for the left since fascism is a far right ideology.

Utter bullshit nonsense. Jan 6 alone, before investigating or prosecuting or housing the criminal terrorists cost over $500 million with 5 dead, for just one day of many far right riots. How much damage and cost has the election fraud fraud with its never ending “investigations” by politically connected organizations with zero experience, destroying entire county wide election systems and invalidating thousands of voting machines brought? How much of the near $40 billion wasted on the border fence that isn’t slowing a single immigrant was just stolen by politically connected groups with zero construction experience who promised to build a wall? If you want to add up costs and damage by party, you can’t then just ignore all costs and damages done by the extreme right/Trumpist fascists.
Now, how much destruction, death, and damage are the right promising to create if Trump is indicted? Pushing their followers to prepare to riot violently should the law be applied to their side while still chanting “lock her up” over Clinton who was only accused of 1% the crimes Trump was caught red handed committing….and you don’t see any hypocrisy, nothing wrong at all with demanding prison for any infraction by political enemies and total blanket immunity for their leaders.

You watch too much far right propaganda (the kind that replayed riot videos from years ago claiming they were of Portland burning daily for months…you must have thought Portland was made of asbestos to still be there to burn after week one of that lie, truth is the Portland “riots” were mostly peaceful and were only about a 4 city block area, not the entire city, something else OAN and FOX neglected to tell you), the kind of far right propaganda that never reported on the far right actors caught shooting crowds, lighting fires, shooting cops, setting bombs, etc. Most arsons, nearly all deaths, and 100% of cop killing and bombings during the 2020 riots (that Trump couldn’t stop but did exacerbate) were caused by proud and boogaloo boys trying false flag attacks. They were caught and prosecuted (or killed) committing crimes and blaming blm. There weren’t many BLM prosecutions and fewer convictions because there was no evidence the BLM activists committed these crimes, unlike the right wingers that were convicted of them…but you weren’t told that on OAN. They were dumb enough to carry manifestos explaining the false flag plans.

Dangerous? Hardly. The right perpetrated every instance of domestic terrorism this decade and last. Death threats at unbelievable levels even to the FBI and DOJ (because you’re idiots), showing up at school board meetings armed and apoplectic, refusing public health laws and making the pandemic 10+ times worse…the right is insane and armed and angry and self righteous and ready and willing to retry the civil war (too dumb to know it was the worst thing that ever happened to America and much worse for the confederacy)….nothing is more dangerous.
Violent? The right has that on lock too, 10/10 top gun murder states are red states. Red counties also have higher gun deaths.
Anti-free speech!?! 😂 Don’t say gay…not a Democratic governmental censorship. No CRT- again, not Democratic censorship or rational. Book banning and burning, again, not the Democrats or left.

“I just admit this is true”? Is this a typo or a brain fart? I did not, and do not “admit” or agree anything you said here is true.

Sorry, friendo, you have everything backwards as usual…based on your FEELINGS, not any facts. You just can’t admit you’ve been so wrong, so instead you continue to be wrong. Grow up. Being an adult means admitting mistakes, something you haven’t done once in the time I’ve known you.

You just can’t and won’t see facts or truth, and insist despite all evidence that your side is peaceful…peaceful gun toting and shooting, stabbing and smashing, Molotov and bomb carrying, don’t back down, no compromise, angry, vitriolic, uncivil, murderous mobs demanding their loser despotic dictator be installed as president for life and death to any opposition….not just on Jan 6 too. Ever since Nov 4 2020, Jan 6 was just one bad day of your normal behavior at Trump’s direction for his benefit….but it failed because you’re all really just cowardly snowflakes that ran at the first gunfire, not strong brave patriots fighting for freedom but weak, scared seditionists fighting for a non democratic dictator.

PS- sounds like Toth Senchal is done, failed to get the shareholder support needed to get an extension on their merger that would have brought funding, so no merger, no $1.5 billion in funding, not going public, >$1.5 million in debt and preparing to stiff their vendors in true Trump style. Another failed Trump venture costing his investors millions and leaving his vendors unpaid as usual. Suckers…what idiot gives Trump credit? No bank will.

PPS - how are you likening the right wing switch from “Trump did nothing wrong, nothing burger” to “There’s nothing in the constitution barring Trump from running for president from prison”? I’ve heard various senators and representatives say that now…not just morons on the street but morons in congress. So deep in the cult you think a president that does business through collect phone calls that are monitored and recorded is a reasonable sacrifice to have Trump back. 🤦‍♂️

PPPS- we just got video of Trump’s lawyers with their tech guy being escorted into Georgia election offices by one of the fake electors at the exact time voting machines and the tabulation systems were illegally breached in that office on Jan 7 21 (the day after the failed coup). This happened in multiple states, illegal breaching of voting systems by Trump’s team, harming the nation irreparably, all at Trump’s direction. Wrong is wrong….at what point is wrong enough to stop supporting wrong. I would say there is no wrong so wrong you would drop Trump, not if he’s caught mid ejaculation in the 6 year old boy he is in the process of electrocuting to death to enhance his own orgasm…you would blame the dead boy, not Trump.

PPPPS- Trump just admitted he’s a serious drug addict, addicted to cocaine, meth, crack, heroin, even fentenal. He did this by accusing Fetterman of all those addictions with zero evidence, which means it’s projection 100% of the time. This you guy, a deranged dope fiend and incestuous pedophile who steals top secret documents and spreads them around his property that’s open to the public. 😂

Noooo….you still don’t like Biden. You still think self serving narcissistic Trump was a leader, but a lifelong frugal public servant isn’t. Nooooo! (I know there’s no breaking through your fantasy, bob. You are a lost cause, totally divorced from reality and totally uninterested in honesty).

No bob, I mean the Union…as in the United States of America. As in the Union vs the Confederacy. Trump nearly dissolved the Union, so much that Republican platforms now include secession as their goal. Derp. Another “L” for your column. Another dunce cap for your collection.
Republicans want to erase America out of infantile spite, but have no idea what to do afterwards. Better learn Chinese or Russian, red states can’t afford to defend themselves, you are all welfare queen states with the highest murder and crime rates.

Side note: But, this means you are anti union, so 100% anti worker? Really? What favors has Biden handed unions? Most unions (all you oppose) lobby for workers, blue collar employees. You would limit lobbiests to to those lobbying for billionaires and huge corporations (including religious corporations) that actively lobby against workers rights, pay, safety, ecological responsibility, hours, etc. Think about that.

You fucking moron, it went from 3.08% (higher than Trump ever reached) in 2015 under Obama to -3.5% in 2020 (the lowest ever in history). Who the fuck told you .2%? Who told you Trump left it at 2.5%? Overall Obama’s growth rate was actually 50% higher than Trump’s, and Obama inherited a deep recession, Trump inherited a boom. They outright lied to you, and you just lapped it up without ever looking. They’re feeding you poo pie bob, not chocolate. I really wish I didn’t have to spend so much time correcting your obviously fabricated statistics, especially since you only spout them to force a correction, getting you attention, not because you believe or even understand them. So you understand, printing 50% more money while your economy is in the worst contraction ever causes inflation, and that’s what Trump did in 2020 while focusing on the election he lost in a landslide and ignoring the pandemic and economy.

Jobs?!? Obama job growth was near 8% adding 12.5 million jobs, Trump was the only president ever to lose jobs, losing 3.2 million. Another 100% break from reality, buddy. I’m telling you, you need professional help.

Yes, Trump did turn us around, from a massive recovery and booming economy to massive economic losses, job losses, absolutely insane deficits and trying to double the debt, huge money printing in 2020 (magic wand waiving) that creates massive inflation (that he now blames Biden for), undreamed of losses of life, and teetering on the brink of depression and pandemic. He made us madder. For libs that means angry, for cons that means totally bat shit crazy with no ties to reality at all.

Far from it, lots of positive, but so much negative left from the previous one we are still in the red.

They have made policies that help the American pocketbook, Trump robbed it blind to hand to billionaires (and fake billionaires).

Who told you that lie. The Democrats have done everything they legally can to force oil companies to increase production and stop price gouging, Republicans all voted against doing anything, then claim “Biden’s fault”. No fossil fuel production has been cut. You’ve been lied to, and you aren’t intellectually honest enough to investigate for yourself…you don’t want to hear the truth.

Republicans are to blame for high fuel prices, Democrats are responsible for the recent lowering. Democrats are making efforts to lower them further, Republicans are 100% opposed to any actions.

Trump benefited on fuel costs thanks to the economic collapse he caused by denying and ignoring Covid for months, dropping the demand for fuel to nothing…not a good policy overall, or do you suggest killing another million and shutting down another year to lower gas prices?


Lol. You are claiming reports say the average American spends $500 more on fuel and goods per month than under Trump? What reports? Glen Beck, AON, or Rush Limbaugh’s ghost? Only if you are a trucker using hundreds of gallons of gas a month. Even in California, fuel cost has gone up less than 1/5 of what you say.

Trump cost you SO much more than $6k per year, over $60k per taxpayer on the official debt alone…and these extra expenses (probably $100-$200 per month tops) are thanks to Trump printing 1/3 of every dollar in circulation (inflation) and fuel supply and demand being out of hand intentionally because oil companies make more money by producing less, and aren’t nationalized so the government can’t force them to stop gouging.

Such nonsense bob. Your facts are all wrong, and since you won’t investigate you are just going to continue to believe the lies you were fed. The people you listen to are making money off your beliefs, bob, and they see you as a huge sucker they can convince of anything and get your money or support for their America destroying “get me richer quick” schemes.

🤦‍♂️

Summary, since I don’t think you can read that much.
Union = United States Union, not unions
Gdp- Obama 1.59% rising consistently during his presidency Trump 1% falling precipitously to the worst ever in history. Also never beat Obama’s high.
Jobs- Obama added 12.5 million, Trump lost 3.2 million
Debt- Obama added $9 trillion, ending a recession and creating a boom over 8 years. Trump added $8 trillion on the books (and trillions more off the books) in 4 years ending a boom and creating a recession
Deficit- 2020 was the biggest budget deficit ever by >200% at $3.13 trillion and added well over $4.2 trillion to the debt that year, way more than 2021 at a still horrific $2.7 budget deficit but ending adding only $1.5 to the debt.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306

Oil/gas price - all cost cutting measures opposed by Cons.

I have read that Lee quote too. I think he meant any statues or monuments to the confederacy, but that's just my opinion.

I certainly see a distinction between imperfect but honorable men trying to do right and treasonous racists trying to found a nation rooted in the racist concept that ...."the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. "

I, for one, don't demand perfection from my heros, only honor, honesty, and empathy. Claiming other people are subhuman and naturally subordinate fails on all three counts.

I think it's important to evaluate the reasons many monuments were erected, in the case of confederate monuments it was done to oppose civil rights for non whites, install a permanent reminder of the pervasive racism the confederate was founded on, and to misrepresent history to minimize their ancestors treason.
In the case of the Lincoln emancipation monument, it was to celebrate finally officially recognizing the humanity of a large portion of the population. I would hope anyone bothered by it's depictions 1)understands the history of its creation (thanks for that) and 2)offers to replace it at their expense rather than demand its removal at taxpayer expense.

The key point here is that the Emancipation Proclamation, although widely celebrated, had no real legal effect. It did not apply to states that had not seceded, and for states that had seceded US federal government proclamations didn't mean much. The real effect of the Emancipation Proclamation was diplomatic, it made it more difficult for European governments, particularly the UK, to support the Confederacy, as was in their economic best interest.

If people dishonestly try to claim the secession of the traitorous confederacy wasn't based on slavery, remind them of what it's founders and leaders said about it at the time.

"Our new government foundations are laid, it's cornerstones rest, on the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery - subordination to the superior race- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based on this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
-confederate vice president Alexander H. Stephens cornerstone speech explaining the basis of the confederacy

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Since they set up a process to repatriate Confederates, I would guess either the law has changed or they were assumed to have renounced citizenship when they swore allegiance to the Confederacy...but I'm no historical law professor.

Yes, there are some non combatants who joined Daesh who claim to have not renounced or forfeited their citizenship, but since they gave aid and comfort to the enemy during "war" and could be executed imo, wanting to return home and be subjected to the legal system doesn't sound a bit smart. I think those who took up arms are in a different boat, with a much harsher likely legal outcome.

Good question, but no, because they all renounced their citizenship when they seceded and joined the confederacy. Most petitioned the federal government and had it returned after the war, but it seems Lee's paperwork was misplaced and he died no longer an American citizen and without a pardon for treason.

Edit : there's a parallel today with those who joined Daesh renouncing their citizenship...just because no one recognized the Islamic state doesn't mean they're still citizens of the countries they abandoned and went to war against. Those people are traitors to their countries of origin, but not citizens of anywhere.


Also, you bring up an interesting point....since the confederacy wasn't recognized, neither is the rank of general they gave him, right? If the nation was illegitimate, so is any rank they offer....so logically he was never a real general either. We don't say Daesh military ranks are legitimate.

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Although there are (hopefully) no statues to Hitler in Germany, to be honest, there is an ongoing debate about remebrance of the Wehrmacht and its generals by the Bundeswehr.
There are still some Bundeswehr bases named after Wehrmacht generals who fought in WW2. And there was a recent report about Wehrmacht paraphenalia (a small part of them clearly praising the Nazi ideology) in Bundeswehr bases.

But the main point in the debate about confederate memorials is that taking down statues or flags does not automatically state that every last Confederate soldier was personally fighting to uphold slavery. What those statues commemorate is what the confederate army as a whole were fighting for.

I wonder how many of the people who marched in Charlottesville and supposedly protested for a more diversifeid view of the confederacy (you see, I am not talking about the KKK, people here but the "Not all of those people were Neo-Nazis"-People) have the same thoughts about islam?
How many of them say "I think most muslims are not terrorists", how dare you take down statues of their generals and leaders?".

@newtboy --

Yarr. I had a pretty long response typed up, and then accidentally clicked on a link and lost it.

So here's a short version:

I agree with you on pretty much everything, but "all statues and other monuments celebrating the insurrection should go" has some caveats for me.

Civic places like government buildings, city parks, etc.? Yeah, they should all go (including the State flags that incorporate the stars and bars). But museums (which you noted you are OK with), battlefields, and even a landmark or two like Stone Mountain I feel can be re-purposed so they aren't necessarily "celebrating the insurrection" so much as "reminding us of the evil that can exist in the hearts of men -- even men that some people respect".

Malcolm Reynolds in Firefly said "It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sumbitch or another." Easier to remember that for Jefferson Davis, Robert E Lee, and Stonewall Jackson, given that their roles in the Confederacy are pretty defining aspects of their legacies. But it remains true for some people like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many other founding fathers that were also slave owners, even though we often conveniently forget that aspect of their history.


--EDIT--
Oh, by the way, I love that Malcolm Reynolds quote from Firefly, and there's a rather similar one made by the Hound in the (leaked) S07E06 episode of Game of Thrones:
"Every lord I've ever known has been a cunt. Don't see why the Lord of Light should be any different."

Not as relevant as the other one, but I liked it.

I do agree the police likely could and should have done more, as they have in the past, but I missed something else here. What about the right wing militias?
There were hundreds of camo wearing, AK toting militia members there (from out of town) that CLAIMED they only came along to keep the peace (not to menace), but I have yet to see a single instance where one or more of them made a single move to actually keep the peace. Instead, I have seen them used as human shields for Nazis who attack people then run behind the wall of guns for protection...then repeat. Clearly, unless that's more misdirection/narrative (which could be proven with a few videos of them actually keeping the peace and stopping Nazi violence and protecting counter protesters), the militia members were also doing their best to be setting the whole thing up to guarantee it turned into a 2 party riot...a riot where only their side was armed to the teeth...right? /grin

Side note...why is it so often missed that these people are so dumb they think they can be patriotic and Nazi confederates at the same time? I would counter that supporting and idolizing the confederacy is akin to a Syrian supporting and idolizing Daesh. It was a movement who's main objective was the destruction of the United States. If ever there was a more anti-American, unpatriotic group, I've not heard of them.

Warning, this is long. It's a general reply to bob, but really it's a rant about the reality of this country, origins, issue, and where we are headed... Like they say in Horace and Pete, at this point we just might deserve a president like Trump (especially because we are stupid enough to vote for HIM, and for so many Senators AND Congressmen like him or even far worse)...

Reply to bob at the top...


I hate to tell you, but "SHALL", according to the times in which the founding fathers wrote this IS indeed the utmost highest form of that period meaning that you "HAVE TO" do something.

Go ahead and let your own party change what grammar and vocabulary meant from that period--or simply not have enough brains to know what it really means (though most of us know by now their assistants have let them know what it means, they just refuse to believe reality and instead insert their own collective psychotic delusion).

Typically when it says SHALL (BTW, NOT doing that job should be getting them in HUGE amounts of trouble as well), they should be doing everything they can TO nominate a new judge into the open position in their next open session (not a session one year away, so Trump or Hillary has to do it).

If they want to complain about the nominee they CAN, just while they are under scrutiny to go up for the vote. But, they simply are NOT supposed to do nothing and furthermore say they WON'T do anything...

I'll have to look up what the penalty is for not doing this, but it could be a full "boot" from their job. Simply what has been referred to by Republicans in the past as Impeachment. But, then the Senate has to start that (I'm not sure if anyone else can; hence, this is why I said I'd try to see if there is anything else that can be done)

I believe they can also do it at the state level... BUT ALL of this requires for our government officials to do their fucking jobs! PLUS, the citizens that voted them in to give a shit!
----------


We REALLY, REALLY, do not deserve a country like this...it is BARELY alive and well. We are just a few presidential terms away (plus senators and congressmen) before we grind to a complete halt.

Then we can finally watch everything implode on CNN and FOX while REAL extremists take over and then the real fun starts. True extremists taking control with minimal bloodshed and shouting matches, civil war with outcomes that grant us either the NEO-United States (the U.S.A. V:2.0, which might be good), to the Neo-Confederacy (since that is what it all amounts to on the FAR right's spectrum). OR we simply just dissolve and become something entirely new.

Hey, bob did you know that your party used to be JUST like the Democrats of Lincoln's age. The Republican's were more like the Democrat's of our age. Weird right. THAT conservative party died out with Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose party; then all of the citizens decided that they simply liked the name "Republican" more (since they'd always voted for that name, right...it'd be weird to change it). That is where the Republican's became a FAR different party than they had been (though they still had a few more GREAT leaders before their schism drove them all, sadly, into madness ). The "Democrat's", they thought slavery was just peachy at first, and now they vote for gay-rights. NEITHER party remembers it's roots and the citizens of the United States have had their idiotic teachers and parents tell them all sorts of stories about how great either party WAS, but never telling them what they are like NOW. We all need to vote for our president, nowadays, without even LOOKING at their part's affiliation. It doesn't do any of us any good. Because none of them have ANY real lineage or links to the old presidents of these United States--they're full of shit.

Just remember, Republicans and their party were formed basically to try and abolish slavery--now they are more likely to put it back into action; a complete reversal of their direction, progressive and liberal!

Democrats tried to keep things the same as it was and to even expand slavery--now they want to allow marijuana to be legal, allow gays to have rights, and essentially pick up many progressive and liberal causes... They too have utterly reversed the direction they were at and taking during Abraham Lincoln's time. Conservative on many topics and wanting to expand the states' rights and abilities. Now they are the ones that would abolish slavery and even have Lincoln on their ticket if he ran...

Our parties in these United States are abysmal, a joke, a farce, and shouldn't even be used... The Founding Fathers would be dismayed over so many issues it wouldn't be even funny. They would more than likely throw OUT the Constitution and start a new draft, simply due to the amount of changes we've made in the WRONG direction and the fact that they weren't able to see the future far enough ahead to imagine gigantic empires made only of Business (with a mere handful of people, not hundreds, thousands, and many more like it was in their times) and how News would become so powerful it is essentially as powerful as the president of the United States--and if watched by enough people it is even FAR more powerful than him/her (like in Russia; The Internet being the ONE thing the Founding Fathers would pat our country on the back over and it's what can restore balance to the people who watch or only can gain information from these entities; a new type of "University" where anything can be shared; truth and facts obtained at every man's fingertips nearly instantly at any point on this planet; it IS the world's greatest WONDER ever made).

Lastly, they would absolutely abhor our parties and how they are used--internally and externally (how our politicians...how all the issues interconnect together; all politicians that receive outside money, they would likely want to have them all impeached, same with those that USE the media; they would HATE parties--but they know they'll always exist, you just have to get rid of the things that LET parties abuse we the people and also the government, and those things are: money and media...).


/length

You can't really be that dense, can you?
Flying the battle flag represents love and support of the 'confederacy' and what it stood for, which was clearly based on racist dehumanization of millions of people (just read what the confederacy's founders said at the time, it's clear). You can ignore that it's a symbol of racial hatred, you can listen to those that claim it's about 'heritage', but you must consciously ignore that the heritage it represents is one of complete subjugation of a people based on the amount of melanin in their skin, and a clearly stated superiority of those with less melanin. That IS the history of the flag, it is not, and never was about any other part of Southern culture.
Your mistaken feelings about this flag indicate that you think Germany should still fly the swastika, just below the current German flag? It's pretty much the same thing, and the same level of insult to the victims of the confederacy as the swastika would be to Jews/Polish/French/Belgians/etc.