Thank you for bringing CS Lewis up..because I have been meaning to check out some of his work. I have read the Screwtape letters, but that's about it. Pretty sad, I know. I am definitely going to check out your recommendations.

It's mind boggling to try to perceive something from an eternal perspective..someone told me that he saw all of time like a flower in bloom, from the top down perspective..

Omniscience as knowing the knowable..that's a pretty good way of thinking about it. Perhaps that is where free will comes into play..and as far as hell..just the very basic definition of being spiritually seperated from God forever..that would be the worst torture possible..so the descriptions could be seen from that perspective as metaphorical..interesting stuff

>> ^smooman:
>> ^Ti_Moth:
>> ^shinyblurry:
It was not their lack of knowledge that made them "inferior", it was their faith in God that made them superior. Yet, God gave them the choice didn't He? Your argument here is null and void. He enjoyed a perfect relationship with them but He gave them the choice of knowing anyway. He warned them if they did it they would die. They chose not to trust God and lusted after his power, and then they reaped the consequences, which was seperation from God. It's the same story going on on Earth, right now, in every heart that has turned away from God. What He did, and is still doing, is fair and just. He doesn't coerce your love, but he will let you reap the consequences of the evil that you do, and He even gives you fair warning.

You seem to forget that apparantly your God is all knowing. He knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do, he knew what the serpant would do and he knew what he would do to them and the whole of humanity afterward (Torture a majority of them for eternity). Now maybe as an imperfect mortal I can't understand this strange "love" of his but it seems to me like your god is anything but all loving.

well this all depends really on your view or understanding or omniscience. CS Lewis once described it (and now for a butchering paraphrase) that god is all knowing not in a fortune teller sense but in an observational sense. Meaning that god exists outside of any space and time that we can perceive and as such what we observe as past present and future is observed as all present to god. In this way god knows what im gonna eat for breakfast tomorrow, not because he can see the future, but because my future as well as my present and past, is all present to god.
Consider this: in the story of the flood, god is displeased with his creation to the point that he wants a do-over. Now that language used to describe gods regret is explicit in stating that he was so regretful and displeased with how his creation turned out that he had wished he had not created it in the first place (im searching through my old college notes trying to find the Aramaic words used). That being said, if god is all knowing, in the sense that you describe (the fortune teller sense), why would he create his creating knowing that he would regret it to the point that he wish he hadnt created it in the first place? I would suggest to you that gods omniscience is knowing the knowable (knowing the knowable, i know its a bit vague, i could elaborate if you like)
moving to a different topic, the whole god tortures via hell, again that depends on your view of what hell is. The Great Divorce by CS Lewis would be a good read on the subject as would the theology of annihilationism.
many times the tortuous metaphors of hell described in the bible (gnashing of teeth, eternal flames, a thousand deaths, etc etc) are metaphors describing the pain of eternal seperation from the creator, which to me would be exactly what hell is. THese colorful metaphors arent meant to mean a literal, physical eternal torture but a spiritual one. Put in another way, for those of you that have kids or a dearly loved spouse or whatever, one might poetically describe the separation from them as "torture" but this does not mean the literal sense of the word now does it?
The Great Divorce is a great read on the subject

>> ^smooman:

>> ^Ti_Moth:
>> ^shinyblurry:
It was not their lack of knowledge that made them "inferior", it was their faith in God that made them superior. Yet, God gave them the choice didn't He? Your argument here is null and void. He enjoyed a perfect relationship with them but He gave them the choice of knowing anyway. He warned them if they did it they would die. They chose not to trust God and lusted after his power, and then they reaped the consequences, which was seperation from God. It's the same story going on on Earth, right now, in every heart that has turned away from God. What He did, and is still doing, is fair and just. He doesn't coerce your love, but he will let you reap the consequences of the evil that you do, and He even gives you fair warning.

You seem to forget that apparantly your God is all knowing. He knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do, he knew what the serpant would do and he knew what he would do to them and the whole of humanity afterward (Torture a majority of them for eternity). Now maybe as an imperfect mortal I can't understand this strange "love" of his but it seems to me like your god is anything but all loving.

well this all depends really on your view or understanding or omniscience. CS Lewis once described it (and now for a butchering paraphrase) that god is all knowing not in a fortune teller sense but in an observational sense. Meaning that god exists outside of any space and time that we can perceive and as such what we observe as past present and future is observed as all present to god. In this way god knows what im gonna eat for breakfast tomorrow, not because he can see the future, but because my future as well as my present and past, is all present to god.
moving to a different topic, the whole god tortures via hell, again that depends on your view of what hell is. The Great Divorce by CS Lewis would be a good read on the subject as would the theology of annihilationism.
many times the tortuous metaphors of hell described in the bible (gnashing of teeth, eternal flames, a thousand deaths, etc etc) are metaphors describing the pain of eternal seperation from the creator, which to me would be exactly what hell is. THese colorful metaphors arent meant to mean a literal, physical eternal torture but a spiritual one. Put in another way, for those of you that have kids or a dearly loved spouse or whatever, one might poetically describe the separation from them as "torture" but this does not mean the literal sense of the word now does it?
The Great Divorce is a great read on the subject


I'm not sure that you can just chop and change the meaning of omniscience. If he isn't truly all knowing then he can't be all powerful as with out the knowledge of something how could he affect it and if there is something he can't affect he isn't all powerful. The torture you describe of seperation from the creator, I feel completly seperated from a creator and I live a fairly happy life that in no way could be described as torture but if this spiritual anguish that I may feel in hell is as bad as torture (even if not as bad as physical torture) then the christian god is still a complete arsehole in my books.

>> ^Ti_Moth:

>> ^shinyblurry:
It was not their lack of knowledge that made them "inferior", it was their faith in God that made them superior. Yet, God gave them the choice didn't He? Your argument here is null and void. He enjoyed a perfect relationship with them but He gave them the choice of knowing anyway. He warned them if they did it they would die. They chose not to trust God and lusted after his power, and then they reaped the consequences, which was seperation from God. It's the same story going on on Earth, right now, in every heart that has turned away from God. What He did, and is still doing, is fair and just. He doesn't coerce your love, but he will let you reap the consequences of the evil that you do, and He even gives you fair warning.

You seem to forget that apparantly your God is all knowing. He knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do, he knew what the serpant would do and he knew what he would do to them and the whole of humanity afterward (Torture a majority of them for eternity). Now maybe as an imperfect mortal I can't understand this strange "love" of his but it seems to me like your god is anything but all loving.


well this all depends really on your view or understanding or omniscience. CS Lewis once described it (and now for a butchering paraphrase) that god is all knowing not in a fortune teller sense but in an observational sense. Meaning that god exists outside of any space and time that we can perceive and as such what we observe as past present and future is observed as all present to god. In this way god knows what im gonna eat for breakfast tomorrow, not because he can see the future, but because my future as well as my present and past, is all present to god.

Consider this: in the story of the flood, god is displeased with his creation to the point that he wants a do-over. Now that language used to describe gods regret is explicit in stating that he was so regretful and displeased with how his creation turned out that he had wished he had not created it in the first place (im searching through my old college notes trying to find the Aramaic words used). That being said, if god is all knowing, in the sense that you describe (the fortune teller sense), why would he create his creating knowing that he would regret it to the point that he wish he hadnt created it in the first place? I would suggest to you that gods omniscience is knowing the knowable (knowing the knowable, i know its a bit vague, i could elaborate if you like)

moving to a different topic, the whole god tortures via hell, again that depends on your view of what hell is. The Great Divorce by CS Lewis would be a good read on the subject as would the theology of annihilationism.

many times the tortuous metaphors of hell described in the bible (gnashing of teeth, eternal flames, a thousand deaths, etc etc) are metaphors describing the pain of eternal seperation from the creator, which to me would be exactly what hell is. THese colorful metaphors arent meant to mean a literal, physical eternal torture but a spiritual one. Put in another way, for those of you that have kids or a dearly loved spouse or whatever, one might poetically describe the separation from them as "torture" but this does not mean the literal sense of the word now does it?

The Great Divorce is a great read on the subject