you are sounding more and more like an anarchist.
you didnt click the link i shared did you?
it explained in basic form the type of anarchy i subscribe to.

which leads us further into the rabbit hole of governments role.
which by your response it appears i need to describe a tad further.

so lets change the question from:
"what is governments role?"
to
"what,if at all,is the FEDERAL governments role"?

which of course we can refer to the federalist papers or the articles of confederacy.
one is a great argument in regards to what federal powers should be the other was an absolute failure and needed to be discarded.(too much anarchy lol)

that argument is still going on today.
well,between people like you and i,not from the political class.

i agree with your position.
i may word mine differently but our views are in alignment for the most part.

what i do find interesting is how a person with a more right leaning ideology will point to the government and say "there..thats the problem"
while someone from a more left leaning will point to corporations as the main culprit.

you need to understand i point to both.
hence my "plutocracy" argument.
so while you are correct that a corporation cannot throw you in jail,they can and DO influence our legislation (in the form of alec,lobbyists,campaign funding) to enact laws which may make anything their competitors do "illegal" or keep them out of the market completely.or make anything they do "legal".both governments and corporations do this for their own survival and self-interest.

the war on drugs and the private prison system come to mind.since weed is becoming more and more acceptable "illegal" immigrants will become the new fodder for the prison.

in my humble opinion most people all want the same things in regards to a civilized society.
fairness,justice and truth.

now how we get there is the REAL discussion (like you and i are having right now).

i agree the federal government should have limited powers but i recognize government DOES play a role.i believe in the inherent moral goodness of people.that if pressed,most people will do the right thing.

this is why i think that governments should be more localized.we could use the "states rights" argument but i would take it further into townships,local communities and municipalities.

for this to even have a chance this country would have to shake off its induced apathetic coma and participate and become informed.

no easy task.
in fact,what both you and i are suggesting is no easy task.
but worthy..so very very worthy.

active citizenship basically.

when we consider the utter failures of:
our political class.
the outright betrayal of our intellectual class who have decided to serve privilege and power at the neglect of justice and truth for their own personal advancement,
and the venal corporate class.

which all have served,wittingly or unwittingly, to create the corporate totalatarian surveillance state we now find ourselves living in.
there can be ONLY one recourse:

we,as citizens,have to demand a better way.
not through a political system that is dysfunctional and broken and only serves the corporate state while giving meaningless and vapid rhetoric to the people.

nor can this be achieved by violent uprising,which would only serve to give the state the reason to perpetrate even greater violence.

we cannot rely on our academic class which has sold itself for the betterment of its own hubris and self-aggrandizing.

even the fourth estate,which has been hamstrung so completely due to its desire for access to power,it has been enslaved by the very power it was meant to watchdog.

the institutions that existed 50 years ago to put pressure on the levers of power are gone,destroyed and crushed or outright abandoned.

when we look at american history.the ACTUAL history we find that never,not ONCE,did the american government EVER give something to the people.those rights and privileges were hard fought for by social movements.
in fact,america had the longest and bloodiest of labor movements on the planet.
the woman sufferagists.
the liberty party in its stance against slavery.
the civil rights movement.

it is the social movements which put pressure,by way of fear,on the political class.

we have seen the tea party rise and get consumed by the republican political class.

we saw occupy rise up to be crushed in a coordinated effort by the state.this was obama that did this yet little was ever spoken about it.

power is petrified of peoples movements.

there will be another movement.
i do not know when or how it will manifest.
i just hope it will not be violent.

because that is the only way to combat the power structures we are being subjected to today.
civil disobedience.
and i aim to misbehave.

this starts exactly how you and i are talking.
it is the conversation which sparks the idea which ignites a passion which turns into a burning flame.

i am a radical.
a dissident.
but radical times call for radical thinking.

you and i both want fairness,justice and truth.
everybody does.
some of our philosophy overlaps,other parts do not.
we discuss the parts that do not overlap to better understand each other.
this forms a bond of empathy and understanding.
which makes it far more harder to demonize each other in terms of the political class and propaganda corporate tv.

the power elite do not want me to understand you,nor you to empathize with me.
that does not serve their interests.
fear and division serve their interests.
hyper-nationalistic xenophobia serves their interests.

i aim to disappoint them.

now go watch that video i posted for ya.
when ya got time of course lol.

maybe it will help if i share the people i admire.
chomsky,zinn,hedges,watts,harvey,roy,
just some of the people who have influenced me greatly.

anyways.
loving this conversation.
i am in 3 other debates with highly educated people.
nowhere near as polite and awesome as you.
then again..i am kicking the crap out of them.
arrogance really annoys me,makes me vulgar and beligerent.
peace brother man.

All for amping-up the civil disobedience phase of a revolution before more social meltdown and a slow, ugly decline. Larry Wilkerson's perspective seems the most palatable though, unlikely. Arms embargoes, diplomacy and discussions about details of scenarios that have already been set into motion won't change the push forward into that direction I suspect.
The best form of civil and economic disobedience peeps can flex is through collective boycott/embargo/non-participation in failed or toxic systems. Stop watching television firstly and groom a thinking generation off the teat of their programming. Change the shit-think and the obvious answers appear. Welcome to planet earth it's a dangerous place, don't panic.

Civil disobedience for no particular reason other than one artist's message to potential patrons or otherwise inhibited party-robots? I have a question;
Is there some private security finishing school for douche bags that keeps all these NY-cheap-suit-renter versions looking and acting pretty-much the same?
Shaved-head prior to advanced-stage male hair-loss...Check

Blank, clueless look that begs the question, "Do I know what the fuck I am here for?"...Check

Puppy-dog act when volunteering information to ACTUAL law enforcement....Check

I.Q. hoovering around a solid 75....Check

@enoch, I totally agree. The "for the good of the people" clause should come back, and so should time limits. But that's not going to happen. Though it'd be a step in the right direction.

I agree with everything you've written, actually. Absolutely you cannot have a free market as long as we have a protectionist government. And corporations use government to destroy competition.

Civil disobedience is one thing you can certainly do, but there are other ways. You can't fight every fight. And certainly you have to pick the battles you'd serve best. I think a civil conversation between adults about the evils of corporation/state collusion is the beginning of that. From there, it's a movement to change hearts and minds, and I think in the long run we may just win that battle.

@blankfist

i would be totally on board with a massive re-structuring of the corporate charter.

might i suggest we return the clause "for the good of the people"?
and force responsibility financial and otherwise when a corporation causes damage to either the enviroment or society at large.

adam smith said"only with absolute liberty can a free market truly exist".
we do not have absolute liberty nor a free market.
we have a protectionist government which serves the needs of the corporate elite.
and those needs simply translate to :less competition...for them.

which is the point i think you were trying to make and on that note i agree.
but i think the leviathan is a far larger beast and will not be dismissed so easily.

power begets power and seeks only to retain its power.

we have to get money out of politics.
money should never equal free speech,yet sadly that is where we find ourselves to day.

corporations spend billions towards influencing legislation favorable to their bottom line.i read somewhere that for every dollar spent they receive 22,000 from the beneficial legislation.

so not only is out government bought and paid for...they are more trashy than the 10 dollar crack whore.

the only thing that has ever worked to change things...ever.
is the people.
social movements.
we need to starve the beast.

in my opinion the very first step to even BEGIN to make that move forward is we need to fix our fourth estate,or at the very least ridicule and dismiss the fucking circus that we know as corporate media news.
its not news.
its propaganda.

i really think that most people would agree to an extent on what your saying blankie but the reality does not reflect the dream and may be why some people dismiss the notion as silly.

@JiggaJonson brought up a good point and is actually a great way to start to starve the beast.
civil disobedience in the form of refusal to participate in the system.
dont file your taxes.
dont buy car insurance or register your vehicle.
cut up your credit cards and dont pay them.
buy local,from family owned establishments (so your money stays local).

but in my experience most americans do not like being uncomfortable nor afraid and doing these things will bring both to your doorstep.

i always said the american revolution will commence the moment they take away their cable tv.

@JiggaJonson, you're not very good at trolling. But I like that you're putting in the effort. A solid C+.

Honestly though, I believe there's a flaw in your premise. Whether or not someone engages in every form of civil disobedience is irrelevant to their convictions or dedication to a movement. Take Alan Moore for instance. Outspoken Anarchist. Believed government should be nothing more than an administrative role at best. Big supporters of the Occupy movement. The man behind the Guy Fawkes mask. Yet wrote some of his best work for major corporations. And pays taxes.

I'm with you, but I must admit that the ONLY argument that gave me any pause was the one that goes "if he is practicing civil disobedience, he should WANT to get arrested and stand trial".

Real civil disobedience types like Martin Luther King Jr. and others intentionally broke laws (bullshit laws, but still laws) knowing full well that they would be arrested and go to jail. The point was to bring those terrible laws under public scrutiny and ideally ridicule. Point out how unfair they are. I think that people that take such actions are incredibly noble and selfless. To a certain degree, I think that the arguments that Snowden could or should follow that approach at least partially resonated with me.

But then, I considered some mitigating circumstances. IF Snowden had done that right out of the gate, he'd probably have been tossed in Gitmo for life without ever standing trial -- the administration has made it clear that they consider him an enemy of the state and that they are fine with the precedents of how such individuals are treated (ie., rights don't apply to you).

Basically, it boils down to respect. Dr. King Jr. hated some of the BS laws and social injustices in the South, but he respected the justice and good intentions of the US Government in general at the time. Snowden, on the other hand, had firsthand knowledge and proof that our government doesn't deserve such respect from us. They lie, they shit on the constitution, and they have the audacity to call him a criminal.

So, fuck them. They've pushed the line too goddamn far to expect civil disobedience; I think they clearly deserve every bit of blowback they get in the form of uncivil disobedience. Hell, I hope that Snowden has enough more dirt that he can turn the dial up to 11 and get into downright nasty disobedience if the government steps a single corrupt toe out of line in their attempts to extradite him back to their bullshit kangaroo courts.

I started to argue with you, it was a good one too. All about relevance and irrelevance and civil disobedience. But then I realized that my point was, nobody cares. And then I realized that I don't care.

I realized that having political opinions bears little difference to having religious ones. There's so much faith, too many assumptions, too much arrogance, side picking, divisiveness, manipulation and social control involved in both. So I'm agnostic. Both politically as well religiously. The issues are too big, too convoluted, and too interconnected for me to actually know or understand whats going on... and it sounds like arrogance to me now when someone talks politics. Particularly when it comes down to the silliness of assigning traits and personalities and connotations to words like republican or democrat. It's an arrogant, binary way to look at something. And it reeks of brain washing.

So my point again, fuck it. Imma read some books and go to bed.

Yo, play Ingress with me. It's an augmented reality game with two factions fighting over actual points of interest in reality: Post offices, fire departments, police stations, parks, college campuses, jamba fuckin juices.

Each location is a portal that you fight over and DESTROY for your factions. I am in the Orange County Resistance. If they want to stop us from playing, then they're going to have to stamp out all of our freedoms.

Fight the power peacefully and practice war in augmented reality!

@poolcleaner me: Garden Grove, Stanton, Westminster, Fountain Valley, Irvine, Costa Mesa. Civil Disobedience in the form of gaming.

Civil disobedience to combat the shit: Everyone should start now speaking freely of everything from bringing down office buildings with exploding pig's bladders to disrupting nationwide power grids with the power of Pokemon attached to Charizard provided Fire Energy...

Write unintelligible and nonsensical letters to congressmen and senators with return addresses from any and all intelligence apparatus

Wear (at least once a week) a crisp, company-man suit with that little white coiled communications wire dangling out of an ear and walk around in federal buildings and court houses....(Make sure the slacks are ass-less)

Subvert, misdirect, confuse, stifle and incinerate the insects that hold the reigns of this shitstorm factory of servers-

Attend open sessions of congress and laugh manically whenever anyone starts speaking. ABOUT ANYTHING-Bring a hundred people with you...

There's all sorts of effectual mayhem to take part in, your "vote" at this particular stage in the game, means FUCK-ALL

DUI checkpoint are akin to the KGB or the SS demanding you produce your papers whenever asked-The police in the U.S. would NOT perform these fucked-up exercises if more citizens made it harder for them-OBSTRUCTING is bullshit: It's a free-ticket for cops to arrest someone for ANY reason.

(Perhaps the resident copper here on the VS can chime-in??)

If more people through this type of civil disobedience would protest they'd scrap the "checkpoint" bullshit for random drunks and maybe do something that benefits society???

MADD was created by busy-bodies who needed grief counseling instead of a soapbox. Prohibition is for herd animals.

The Tesla and cars like it would be everywhere now for pennies, and the roadways would be coated with photovoltaic compounds which provided energy to the entire grid as well as the cars driving on it were it not for the cunts running the show.

The technology has been here over 40 years, but corporate cunts and their lackeys in congress' worldwide, keep it from implementation. We all know why, thieves and assholes run the planet.

A series of a combination of natural disasters, civil disobedience and perpetual guerrilla sorties on corporate entities are the only things to stop the madness at this stage in our decline.

Dream on if you think the world of free-energy and everyone driving affordable electric vehicles is in our near future-Unless you chop off the head, the beast will only grow stronger.

Good morning.....So VoodooV, simply not a good person...

One might imagine that you've mistaken paranoid rage for a genuine concern for the people who must suffer the damaged, soon beyond-repair law-enforcement establishment in the U.S. While I can't vouch for many municipalities, I have dealt with law enforcement in multiple states since I was old enough to drive a car.
Texas has an inordinate amount of assholes in law enforcement, which has sullied or otherwise affected my opinion of peace officers (that term an oxi-moron for millions of people who have had to deal with profiling, unprovoked aggression, and general douche-baggery from the hind-brained, alpha-or-wannabe-alpha victims of abuse and racism who choose a career in "law enforcement".

We have several versions of cops here, Sheriffs, constables, state troopers, city police, game wardens, etc., all with their privilege and jurisdictions, all with varying levels of professionalism and personalities some of which are synonymous with their particular group.
I maintain, that In ALL of these branches of law enforcement due to corruption and abuse of power as the rule for over 50 years combined with the systematic granting of more and more powers to state over individual rights that the SYSTEM is inherently corrupt and anti-human rights. I have come to this conclusion in my dealings with them personally and by paying attention to the fucking world without blinders and outside of the insular framework of my own perception of how i would LIKE the world to be.

What is your personal experience in dealing with law enforcement robots? Where do you live? What is your station in life economically, socially. Are you Caucasian or a minority? All these questions beg an answer because I suppose that your exposure to the world outside of the comfort of your CONSTRUCT, is causing this consternation and judgement vomited-forth in your last comment, and I would hate to have some skewed opinion of you based on your reaction to mine on issues that have EVERYTHING to do with human rights, justice, blah blah blah, all the shit that's important to people like us, schmoes slaving for paper-tickets to buy more play-time in the world created while you were fast-fucking asleep.

Fix it instead of whining like a spoiled brat??
Well sir, when you live in a country with the majority of peeps fast-asleep with their heads up movie-stars and basketball-player's asses whose political system is a fucking joke and her government co-opted by corporate and security interests then civil disobedience or heaven-forbid, UNCIVIL should the situation necessitate is about the only reasonable, actionable, effective solution for me.
Malcolm X was right, rich, sociopathic white people suck donkey balls and run the whole fucking show.

Would you like to have a discussion on the state of the Prison system in the United States? Hand-in-hand with the men in blue are the men in brown who would, that the current model be expanded and improved upon....It's broken and you have an opinion,??

Please enlighten us all-

Considering the nature of the revolution, it is my belief that the initial point of the 2nd Amendment was to facilitate the overthrow of a foreign (or corrupt) government by the people. That said, when we spend 40% of our tax revenue on the military industrial complex the whole "overthrow government by force" thing is kinda out the window. That & more guns in society sure as hell don't make our daily lives any better.

I guess the point is, we're kinda screwed either way. Maybe we should focus more on taking back our republic through acts of civil disobedience and persistent culture change. Let's just make sure that when we decide to go down this route for a more comfortable living we don't forget that only we, the citizens, can stop the downslide into a fiscal oligarchy.

Sincerely, Debbie Downer

Power in politics and the economy is violence. This nonsense at the beginning about how these protesters are totally wrong for hitting the douche-bag is completely blind to the reality of how power is used to solve political/economic disputes.

If students, in a completely symbolic act of opposition march on a university, they get beaten with clubs and attacked with chemical weapons. The people who support them decry the violence, the people who oppose them say they got what they asked for. No action is taken to reduce the disproportionate response by those in power. That's what happens on one side of the class war.

Conversely in a symbolic act of douchebagary some guy walks into a crowd of pissed off people and starts harassing them, with the explicit intent of getting his ass kicked. In this case a few of the protesters, in a non-coordinated fashion throw a couple punches, and other protesters intervene to break it up. Not only do the proponents of said douchbag claim that this somehow proves he is correct about how bad the protesters position is, but the supporters of the protesters also get their undergarments tied in knots expressing their disapproval. This is how the losing side in the class war decides to unilaterally disarm, so don't wonder why we are where we are.

Unions always come to power with the force of violence as a tool, just as workers are always subjugated to power elietes with violence as a tool, to pretend that one side in these disputes somehow has an obligation to be more "civilized", when being so means losing, is to buy hook line and sinker, the propaganda of their opponents.

It would be nice if these disputes could be handled peacefully, but the power elites of the world have learned from the passive resistance movements of the past, and immunized our society from the future use of non-violent civil disobedience. The only thing left is clubs in the street. The only question is if the protesters will have them as well as the police.

@Enzoblue

Like in any democracy, in a union , you get the representation you organize/vote for. Many Democracies are bad, I would even accept that most are. None the less, given the choice between a poorly lead union, where the workers can replace the union leaders, and an un-mediated well lead employer(tyranny), where the leader can be replaced at random by fate/the market, I choose the first.