Is my sandwich ready?>> ^peggedbea:
there is no feminist conspiracy, i promise. and its not a matter of "getting off on it" it's a matter of broad generalizations about the way people are enculturated and things that are social occurrences. they just are.
and if you ask, you offer to pay. it's the same rule when i ask my female friends out to lunch; i ask, i offer to pay.
i have a really good friend, we met like 9 years ago and dated briefly. he even did the "open the car door thing" and i thought it was way over the top and he was trying way too hard, but something about it seemed oddly sincere so i didn't bust his balls for it right away. but 9 years later and all romantic interest crushed dead, he still opens my car doors and usually pays when go out, even for my kids, except for the times he's been unemployed and i paid for everything, or in cases where i get to the check first (which i try to do a lot). no one is getting off on it, no one is trying to get laid, it's just the way he shows respect and appreciation and love. i'm glad i never called him out for what i thought was a douchebag move, because he wasn't saying "i want to manipulate you into fucking me" he was actually saying "i respect and appreciate you" (but yeah, in most cases if you go so far as too open my car door, i might think you're trying too hard and be annoyed by it)
the point is these things are cultural symbols. they exist. opening a door for someone doesn't have to mean "i want to fuck you" or "you're a pitiful weak female and can't do this for yourself". it's just body language and it usually means "i acknowledge you're going through this door next and respect you enough as human to not let it slam in your face" and if you're so socially detached and cynical that you don't understand that, then no, i probably don't want to date you. but all things become subjective, of course. i usually like shy nerds, and i am usually friends with them first, and then i usually just tell them. but it's not like i've never been asked out first, and i pay attention to body language and signals and social cues. because they exist and say a lot about a person. and maybe it's because i was raised by men, or raised in the south, but courtesy and respect and general politeness are important. and our culture says these things show respect and courtesy. we don't go along telling people we respect them verbally, we open doors and want to share meals and help our neighbors.
and as far as blankfist's encounter with these bitches, some people are shameful and rude. some women are pampered spoiled bitches who think its okay to let his presence on the sidewalk go ignored. and that's wrong.

>> ^imstellar28:
What else can "getting out of a ladies way" be if not chivalry? Chivalry was killed in the mainstream when feminists started complaining about it. It still exists in small circles where and when it can be used as a tool for sexual conquest (as it always was)..i.e. when a guy is after a girl who gets off on "a guy who opens doors for me or picks up the check or has good manners"
The problem in this situation is these women think all men want to court them at all times...hence the pompous sense of entitlement and selfish attitude they project towards men. I'd put them in the same group as the feminists who complain about guys opening doors for them - the "people I don't want to date" group.
>> ^peggedbea:
chivalry:
what remains of it, for the most part, is part of the courting ritual.
...
i'm sorry you have bitchy, attractive, spoiled neighbors. but chivalry and feminism aren't the issue.

there is no feminist conspiracy, i promise. and its not a matter of "getting off on it" it's a matter of broad generalizations about the way people are enculturated and things that are social occurrences. they just are.

and if you ask, you offer to pay. it's the same rule when i ask my female friends out to lunch; i ask, i offer to pay.

i have a really good friend, we met like 9 years ago and dated briefly. he even did the "open the car door thing" and i thought it was way over the top and he was trying way too hard, but something about it seemed oddly sincere so i didn't bust his balls for it right away. but 9 years later and all romantic interest crushed dead, he still opens my car doors and usually pays when go out, even for my kids, except for the times he's been unemployed and i paid for everything, or in cases where i get to the check first (which i try to do a lot). no one is getting off on it, no one is trying to get laid, it's just the way he shows respect and appreciation and love. i'm glad i never called him out for what i thought was a douchebag move, because he wasn't saying "i want to manipulate you into fucking me" he was actually saying "i respect and appreciate you" (but yeah, in most cases if you go so far as too open my car door, i might think you're trying too hard and be annoyed by it)

the point is these things are cultural symbols. they exist. opening a door for someone doesn't have to mean "i want to fuck you" or "you're a pitiful weak female and can't do this for yourself". it's just body language and it usually means "i acknowledge you're going through this door next and respect you enough as human to not let it slam in your face" and if you're so socially detached and cynical that you don't understand that, then no, i probably don't want to date you. but all things become subjective, of course. i usually like shy nerds, and i am usually friends with them first, and then i usually just tell them. but it's not like i've never been asked out first, and i pay attention to body language and signals and social cues. because they exist and say a lot about a person. and maybe it's because i was raised by men, or raised in the south, but courtesy and respect and general politeness are important. and our culture says these things show respect and courtesy. we don't go along telling people we respect them verbally, we open doors and want to share meals and help our neighbors.

and as far as blankfist's encounter with these bitches, some people are shameful and rude. some women are pampered spoiled bitches who think its okay to let his presence on the sidewalk go ignored. and that's wrong.


>> ^imstellar28:
What else can "getting out of a ladies way" be if not chivalry? Chivalry was killed in the mainstream when feminists started complaining about it. It still exists in small circles where and when it can be used as a tool for sexual conquest (as it always was)..i.e. when a guy is after a girl who gets off on "a guy who opens doors for me or picks up the check or has good manners"
The problem in this situation is these women think all men want to court them at all times...hence the pompous sense of entitlement and selfish attitude they project towards men. I'd put them in the same group as the feminists who complain about guys opening doors for them - the "people I don't want to date" group.
>> ^peggedbea:
chivalry:
what remains of it, for the most part, is part of the courting ritual.
...
i'm sorry you have bitchy, attractive, spoiled neighbors. but chivalry and feminism aren't the issue.

>> ^dag:
I've often thought that the custom of men letting a woman go first was just a chance to look at her ass.


Godammit Dag! If you keep giving away Brotherhood secrets, we'll have to choice but to bring you up on charges...

ABC...Always Be Closing.>> ^Ryjkyj:
Oh great, since somebody sent this to the front, I would just like to say that I always practice chivalry:
Because women are the superior sex and they deserve to be treated like queens every second of every day.

Oh great, since somebody sent this to the front, I would just like to say that I always practice chivalry:

Because women are the superior sex and they deserve to be treated like queens every second of every day.

What else can "getting out of a ladies way" be if not chivalry? Chivalry was killed in the mainstream when feminists started complaining about it. It still exists in small circles where and when it can be used as a tool for sexual conquest (as it always was)..i.e. when a guy is after a girl who gets off on "a guy who opens doors for me or picks up the check or has good manners"

The problem in this situation is these women think all men want to court them at all times...hence the pompous sense of entitlement and selfish attitude they project towards men. I'd put them in the same group as the feminists who complain about guys opening doors for them - the "people I don't want to date" group.

>> ^peggedbea:
chivalry:
what remains of it, for the most part, is part of the courting ritual.

...

i'm sorry you have bitchy, attractive, spoiled neighbors. but chivalry and feminism aren't the issue.

Yes... feigning.

>> ^Psychologic:
>> ^blankfist:
Another option is feigning a psychological disorder... that usually gets people moving.

>> ^blankfist:
I would've stepped into the grass and let the women have the entire sidewalk, but like I said I stepped in dog shit once so I refuse to do it again.

Instead of going around them, you could always kneel down and pretend to re-tie your shoe laces. They'll either have to go around you or stop and wait. It takes more time, but at that point it's more about the principle.

Another option is feigning a psychological disorder... that usually gets people moving.

This is where traffic trolling comes in. Walk super slowly in front of her car, if you have time slip down your pants and leave a nice big steamer on the hood of the car.
>> ^blankfist:
Chivalry is theater. I do it because that's how I was brought up, and it's hard to unlearn what is taught, prayed and spanked into us at such a young age. Acceptance of people as your equal is genuine.
I would've stepped into the grass and let the women have the entire sidewalk, but like I said I stepped in dog shit once so I refuse to do it again. I made myself as horizontally thin as humanly possibly and moved as far to the edge of the sidewalk as I could, but that wasn't enough for these Los Angeles princesses. No they wanted the entire width of the sidewalk to themselves.
There was certainly a sense of entitlement playing out here. It's also a very common occurrence in my neighborhood. I live in a city of self-important people. Once I was crossing at a crosswalk in my residential neighborhood and some lady in a Mercedes had to wait for me to cross, which she wasn't happy about, so she almost drove up on the curb to get around me and then she made a comment at me. I can't remember what she said exactly but it was something to the effect of 'don't you look', which I remember making no sense at all because a) I had the right of way and b) I did look before crossing, but she had a stop sign.

Chivalry is theater. I do it because that's how I was brought up, and it's hard to unlearn what is taught, prayed and spanked into us at such a young age. Acceptance of people as your equal is genuine.

I would've stepped into the grass and let the women have the entire sidewalk, but like I said I stepped in dog shit once so I refuse to do it again. I made myself as horizontally thin as humanly possibly and moved as far to the edge of the sidewalk as I could, but that wasn't enough for these Los Angeles princesses. No they wanted the entire width of the sidewalk to themselves.

There was certainly a sense of entitlement playing out here. It's also a very common occurrence in my neighborhood. I live in a city of self-important people. Once I was crossing at a crosswalk in my residential neighborhood and some lady in a Mercedes had to wait for me to cross, which she wasn't happy about, so she almost drove up on the curb to get around me and then she made a comment at me. I can't remember what she said exactly but it was something to the effect of 'don't you look', which I remember making no sense at all because a) I had the right of way and b) I did look before crossing, but she had a stop sign.

Dragon lovah.
>> ^Drax:
P.S. I keep a couple swords in my room just in case a dragon ever DOES attack. Id so do it, too!

I see chivalry sometimes as just a front. My grandfather (mother’s father) was a very courteous person (mainly to females) in public but he was the most sexist meanest asshole. I’m not saying however that men that do open doors for others are that way, but I’m just saying that it doesn’t automatically mean that person is a nice guy. Who knows, maybe that guy who wants his portion of the sidewalk is a nice guy after all…or he could just be a douche bag. Regardless, it’s unfair to judge someone based on some fake charisma.

P.S. Fuck putting on makeup and if the guy doesn’t offer to pay for the first date…honestly…that wouldn’t mean it would be our last.

Was that you taking a crap on that whole issue?

In reply to this comment by berticus:
hhhhhhhhhhhhhnNHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGHGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This is why chivalry is dead. When it becomes expected, it's no longer chivalry, it's a chore. It's the same way the other way, though. (What do you call that? Femmalry). It's fundamentally distorting what you're like to get laid, and I don't like that. Better to present yourself the way you are, in my book anyway.

>> ^peggedbea:if we're on our first date and you make no attempt to open doors for me or pick up the check or have good manners, that's our last date. i'm not sure why that's how it is. i am perfectly capable of doing those things for myself, but courting rituals are important and that's part of it. on the same coin, i'm expected to reciprocate by pretending you're fascinating and funny, not being opinionated, smiling politely, wearing make up, smelling nice, looking presentable, making polite conversation and being more conventionally feminine than i normally am. it's just part of the deal. i also used to feel bad having someone else pay for my shit, but apparently if i try to pay for my own stuff on a first date that's a signal that i just want to be "friends". these are cultural rules and they exist and most people abide by them. it's cool. .

>> ^blankfist:
Taking out trash is a man's job, she says, and I'm fine with that. Protecting the household is a man's job, and I'm more than fine with that. Doing anything that requires heavy lifting is my job, and that's cool.
As one of her Christmas gifts, I bought her a Roomba because we're both busy ... She thought it was sexist ...
What if she bought me a robot to carry out the garbage? You think I'd complain? Hells to the naw. I'd love it.


But therein lies the discrepancy. You accept that taking out the trash is solely your responsibility. She does not accept that it is her job to clean the floor. You said yourself: "We're both busy" which implies it's a job for both/either of you, not for her alone.

As far as the rest of the subject goes, there will never be true equality betwixt the genders because we simply are not equal.

The female gender will always be the one responsible for child birth and their biological chemistry can alter their psychology as a result. The male gender as an overwhelming majority possesses significantly more testosterone than females, causing them to be more aggressive as well as physically capable. (Note this isn't true for every male versus every female; again, it's just an observable fact for the vast majority of males versus the vast majority of females. Also, these aren't the only differences between men and women, but my point is that our inequality is inherent on a biological, not just societal, level.)

The whole feminism movement arose from the ancient oppression of women by men inflicted and accepted almost everywhere throughout human history (and is still carrying on today in many cultures). Feminism (and women's suffrage) was needed to improve the treatment and perception of females as a whole by society in general, but on a lower level provided the opportunity for any individual woman to seek treatment equal to that of her male peers.

While this equality is a available to any female who wishes to exercise it (even if it is not recognized/respected by every other male or female), the feminism movement did not and could not force all women into the role of a feminist, nor all men into the role of equals.

The points I'm getting at are:
- If a man chooses to be chivalrous, then it is a personal choice regardless of how it is interpreted or received by anyone else. His chivalry will be ignored by some women, vilified by others, and appreciated by the rest.
- If a woman wishes to be treated as an equal, she is relieved of the right to expect any male to, strictly on the basis that she's a female, provide her any special courtesy.
- If a women feels that she is entitled to special treatment just based on the fact that she's female, she'll likely look down on essentially all males and expect that they kowtow to her.

I think most women in America nowadays lie in the neutral camp; they don't seek true, full equality and they only feel slightly more entitled/deserving than males in general, but they appreciate a chivalrous male.

All of that is my long way of saying the bottom line is chivalry is not dead nor is it appreciated by everyone. If you choose to be a chivalrous male, you have to bear with the unfortunate fact that it will go unappreciated or even discouraged by some. (That's part of the package.) But in any case, if you do it, you should do it for yourself, just to be happy with and proud of who you are.

On the other hand, if you actually make an effort to intentionally lack all chivalry, then you probably don't care what females think about you anyway, so just be happy treating everyone else as equals. There's nothing wrong with that. No one is born automatically deserving of anything except common human courtesy, and that should be shared in all directions between all persons regardless of gender.

(P.S. Isn't it funny there is never any discussion about men who wish to be treated by women with some kind of fem-chivalry?)
(P.P.S. Funny to imagine what this conversation would have been if the two ladies on the sidewalk were two guys instead. Maybe the title would have been "Fisticuffs!" instead of "Chivalry?")