>> ^curiousity:

>> ^MaxWilder:
^ The proper course to take is full LEGALIZATION.
Regulated, but fully legal sale and possession of all drugs is the only way to break the back of these cartels. It will also solve the prison overcrowding issue and provide a nice tax income for local governments who are currently being squeezed to death.
Anybody who is still against the legalization of recreational drugs is simply ignorant or idiotic.

Hear hear, but I do have an issue with saying that anyone against legalization is ignorant or idiotic. Although this rhetoric is very common these days, it simply kills conversation that might occur with people who are open to discussing different sides of this issue.
Of the people that I feel may change their mind or at least be truly open, I have most often run into an emotional argument against full legalization. This emotional argument is usually based on personally knowing someone brought low by drugs or fear of what would happen. For someone having a loved one/associate/etc who was hurt by drugs, you can sympathize with them and bring up the point that legalization will open the doors for support services and remove some social stigma from seeking help before they hit bottom or kill themselves (accident or purposefully.) The general fears can be talked out and likened to other things in life which are fearful... because really this is the fear of the unknown. The Netherlands has lower adult and teen marijuana use despite its lax laws on it, and if I remember correctly, one of officials made the comment about this stat, "We have succeeded in making marijuana boring." It's a standard of desire, things forbidden are simply tantalizing.


That's pretty much what I mean by ignorant. It's not meant as an insult, just a lack of knowledge. They don't know the truth about how people react to substances being legal or illegal. Legalization will allow addicts to more easily admit they have a problem and seek help. Legalization will make substances less attractive to people who are turned on by flaunting the law.

Of course there are also idiots who have heard all of this and still think drugs should be illegal because "they are dangerous." For them it is fully intended to be an insult.

>> ^MaxWilder:

^ The proper course to take is full LEGALIZATION.
Regulated, but fully legal sale and possession of all drugs is the only way to break the back of these cartels. It will also solve the prison overcrowding issue and provide a nice tax income for local governments who are currently being squeezed to death.
Anybody who is still against the legalization of recreational drugs is simply ignorant or idiotic.


Hear hear, but I do have an issue with saying that anyone against legalization is ignorant or idiotic. Although this rhetoric is very common these days, it simply kills conversation that might occur with people who are open to discussing different sides of this issue.

Of the people that I feel may change their mind or at least be truly open, I have most often run into an emotional argument against full legalization. This emotional argument is usually based on personally knowing someone brought low by drugs or fear of what would happen. For someone having a loved one/associate/etc who was hurt by drugs, you can sympathize with them and bring up the point that legalization will open the doors for support services and remove some social stigma from seeking help before they hit bottom or kill themselves (accident or purposefully.) The general fears can be talked out and likened to other things in life which are fearful... because really this is the fear of the unknown. The Netherlands has lower adult and teen marijuana use despite its lax laws on it, and if I remember correctly, one of officials made the comment about this stat, "We have succeeded in making marijuana boring." It's a standard of desire, things forbidden are simply tantalizing.

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^ The proper course to take is full LEGALIZATION.

Regulated, but fully legal sale and possession of all drugs is the only way to break the back of these cartels. It will also solve the prison overcrowding issue and provide a nice tax income for local governments who are currently being squeezed to death.

Anybody who is still against the legalization of recreational drugs is simply ignorant or idiotic.

>> ^Fusionaut:

How to end the drug war and take power away from organized crime: decriminalize drugs.


No. Decriminalization of drugs will have very little affect on organized crime.

Decriminalization is simply moving the common citizen's punishment from being caught using illegal drugs from criminal to civil - it does nothing about the supply chain for these drugs. In many cases, criminal punishment will still exist for anyone falling under the growing/producing, selling, or transporting category.

But decriminalization isn't completely ineffectual; it will dramatically raise the quality of life of users and provide an official avenue for addicts to get help before hitting rock bottom (although it may just open up the avenue for people/organizations to step into rather than actively providing.)

To disrupt the organized crimes' profit from illegal drugs, you have to provide other sources of these drugs. Pure and simply, this is supply and demand. There will always be some demand.

>> ^entr0py:
Oh. . . so the allegation is that the ATF was holding back in taking down petty gun runners so they could gather evidence to take down the entire organization. The same sort of tactic that the FBI often employs in fighting organized crime within the US.
I get sick of these deceptive video titles. Obviously there's a huge difference between committing a crime and failing to stop it. I was all set to rage against the ATF, now what?


"ATF claims to hate 'beaners and spics'"

Your video, CBS News: US ATF Secretly Arming Mexican Drug Cartels, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

>> ^entr0py:

Oh. . . so the allegation is that the ATF was holding back in taking down petty gun runners so they could gather evidence to take down the entire organization. The same sort of tactic that the FBI often employs in fighting organized crime within the US.
I get sick of these deceptive video titles. Obviously there's a huge difference between committing a crime and failing to stop it. I was all set to rage against the ATF, now what?


The ATF SHOULD have confiscated these guns. It is their job. Human beings died! Human! *Expletive!* Beings! (And no, it does not matter if they are drugrunners or whatever, they are HUMAN BEINGS!)

There is the picture of one American at the end who died... but Mexicans are people too, sound strange, I know. Where there was the one picture of one American there should also have been the epicture of every single lowlife, innocent bystander, drug runner and junkie next to the one American. Because all of those lifes which should have gone on, ideally in prison for the criminals and happily alive for the innocents, are now no more!

>> ^entr0py:

Oh. . . so the allegation is that the ATF was holding back in taking down petty gun runners so they could gather evidence to take down the entire organization. The same sort of tactic that the FBI often employs in fighting organized crime within the US.


No, that's not the allegation, that's just the excuse the ATF are using now it's public.

If that had been their actual intention they would have been working with Mexican officials to track the guns once they crossed the border, then arresting those in possesion of the guns, and making cases against them.

As stated in the video "It was all kept secret from Mexico".

@GeeSussFreeK

I agree that it is a move in the right direction. It is a very important step to assist in harm reduction for citizens; however, it completely fails in some areas.

One area of harm reduction that it completely misses is the lack of quality control. Unless you do independent analysis of what you are buying (assuming you have some lab equipment, knowledge, time, and desire), you have no way of knowing the purity of the illegal(or decriminalized) substance is being bought. This is bad in two ways: (1) the can be cut with harmful (varying degrees) substances to increase overall profit and (2) this can greatly affect the strength of the substance - which leads to accidental overdoses.

The second area of fail for decriminalization is that it doesn't affect the criminal supply structure at all. It doesn't remove the drug dealers off the street and doesn't stop any money from being channeled back to the drug cartels.

The above two points (and I'm sure some other ones) are why you will find some people who strongly oppose decriminalization as a midstep towards full legalization and control. I think that some feel that decriminalization wouldn't be good enough or that it would be a false midstep (i.e. offered up to placate the people and kill the momentum for full legalization.)

Again, decriminalization is fantastic for helping those that are addicts. The government did a big study on veterans come back from Vietnam because a large percentage of them did various/multiple drugs while there because it was so stressful. They found that after a year of being home, less than half still used drugs. It was either 3 or 5 years later, a small percentage used recreationally and 1-3 percent still used them very frequently. I've read several studies on this phenomenon and it holds out that 1-3 percent of people that try a substance become an addict (varying degrees.) Most people just need a perceptual change if they start abandoning their responsibilities because of *insert object of obsession here* (i.e. kick in the pants.) Personally, I ran into this with NHL 2010 for the PS3. Seriously how much more fun can it get? But I started missing homework, missing deadlines from my personal projects, etc. I realized this and actually sold my TV and PS3 to some coworkers to get it out of my place. However because of brain chemistry or personality traits, addicts need professional help. Decriminalization can free a person from the criminal burden when seeking help for substance addiction. (Small side note to pre-address expected thoughts in some people's heads: most addicts get caught doing illegal things like breaking into houses, etc... The point is that most addicts get into this position to feed and because of their addiction. I'm not advocating ignoring the responsibility for those actions, but most reactions focus on dealing punishment instead of treating the root cause.) Over time, decriminalization can also help with removing the social stigmatization of seeking help for addiction. But to be honest, legalizing would be better at that.

I don't see decriminalization as very likely across the US. Fear is the daily diet here and drugs make great PR material for fear. Also there is a great deal of money and the government fighting it. Most government bodies get extra money in their budget to fight the "war on drugs" and don't want to give up that money. Lobbying efforts will mainly be against it: by pharma (why pay for something when you can just grow something that addresses your specific need?) and prisons (US's new slavery system - See how they learned! Now with less visibility and a few whites too! ^{I kid, I kid}) In this regard, I hope that California will take the lead in showing the nation that the world won't come crashing down when this happens. It will eventually as the older people die off. That sounds callous, but it reminds me of scientific advances. Typically a generation can only go so far because of the mental knowledge base that they grew up with. Future generations grew up build their knowledge foundation on the mid- to end-work of the previous generations and are able to look at it differently and advance it.

Well, that seems to be a subject that can make me type... I need to go some work done.

Once the tide of public opinion starts rolling, no army can stop it. The Prohibition fascists don't realize they've already lost. Unjust laws should be disobeyed.

The whole world is watching this vote. If Prop 19 passes, once the other states see the "windfall" (which won't save CA btw) they'll also pass similar. It won't kill the Mexican drug cartels but it will blacken their eye for sure.

>> ^MarineGunrock:

I don't smoke. Never have. But I really can't wait for the day were weed is completely decriminalized. Not only do we spend WAY too much money fighting it, but Mexican drug violence has been spilling over the border. Legal weed in US = more people growing it here = less cartels trying to cart it across the border = less violence.


It is so fucking fun to grow, the hobbies people will have when that purple hazed sunset bestows itself on us, it will be a fine day.

I don't smoke. Never have. But I really can't wait for the day were weed is completely decriminalized. Not only do we spend WAY too much money fighting it, but Mexican drug violence has been spilling over the border. Legal weed in US = more people growing it here = less cartels trying to cart it across the border = less violence.

>> ^kymbos:

I love the way it degenerates into an 'American Conversation' in which both people talk and neither listens.


I find it amusing to note that yet again, it's the conservative side that is the first to interrupt the person speaking.

If alcohol is legal..then so should weed. It doesn't get any simpler than that. The guy's argument about how it gives a legal platform for the mexican cartels is standard fearmongering..they make all their money BECAUSE it's illegal. Legalize it..grow it in the US by US citizens and those mexican drug cartels lose a LOT of their income. Smaller prison population...more tax revenue. more freedom. win win win win.

Who do you think helps fund the opposition to legalization?

I'm sorry. Tongue in cheek. I never imagined anyone would not see through that, even more if they listened to the song. That is, those that do not know it already know it.

Good points all however. ;

Do you always go around on half cock?

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

..wtf does this song have to do with legalization?
Also, who the fuck sincerely agrees that veterans losing a possible job opportunity outweighs the benefits of decriminalization?
"Suuure we could have:
Collected 9 billion in tax revenue,
Saved millions in prison housing & court processing fees,
Eliminated 60% of the income from most drug cartels and
Restored the public's faith in & cooperation with law enforcement..
but at least Bob's still a Narco Pilot!"