I liked the original Guild Wars. It had a short, tight, enjoyable narrative that served pretty much as a tutorial - and then you played an interesting multiplayer game that revolved around skill choices and interactions between different characters across team archetypes. The team arena in Guild Wars was somewhere between Magic: The Gathering (you kind of built a deck almost) and Defense of the Ancients, with just a hint of Diablo gear collection and what not. I thought the skill acquisition system was great, and there was a great variety of skills (though the skills often felt underpowered). I only quit playing because it was stagnant, and I was quite looking forward to the sequel (especially when reviews were generally good).

I should have paid more attention to what they changed.

The new one is just a slightly different flavor of WoW, and I assume the glowing reviews are from people who generally like WoW but wanted a different flavor (or no monthly charge). It has nothing to do with the original game. It's the fastest I've ever completely given up on a game I spent $60 on.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles..."

As I said, if you want to msg me, we can discuss this further. I've posted many reasons why I said what I did, if you don't want to accept them at face value that's your choice.

>> ^VoodooV:

unless you can read minds or they specifically state "I downvote because I hate religion" you can't judge intent that way.
But you're missing the point. It matters not what topic you discuss, if you commit a logical fallacy, people won't respect you and guess what, they're more likely to downvote you here.
understanding and avoiding logical fallacies is like...debate and discourse 101.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Funny thing is, the article on fallacies is one of the few things that both Wikipedia and Conservapedia agree on, both articles appear accurate. Of course, Conservapedia's examples are radically different
What I see you (and bobknight) do a lot is commit the "appeal to belief" fallacy.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html
you can believe whatever you want to believe, but when you pass your belief off as fact in the public arena without anything to back it up, you lose any credibility you may have earned.
>> ^shinyblurry:
I gave proof in the thread, most notably the 18 discarded posts I have. I'm not going to debate religion with you here. If you want to debate me, then msg me and pick a topic.
>> ^VoodooV:
see here we go with more fallacies.
"People downvote for ideological reasons (they hate religion)"
This is an untrue statement. Unless you've developed some mind reading abilities that I'm not aware of, you simply cannot know why people downvote.
You forget the most simple reason of all: Religion has zero basis in fact and/or reason, therefore it has zero grounds to be treated with any authority. especially in matters of public government."
If you're going to claim they just do it because of hate, you better: 1) back that up with actual evidence and arguments. and 2) ask yourself the very simple question: "If they do hate religion, do they have a good reason why?"
I'd be willing to bet the kids molested by priests can think of a view VERY GOOD reasons's why.

unless you can read minds or they specifically state "I downvote because I hate religion" you can't judge intent that way.

But you're missing the point. It matters not what topic you discuss, if you commit a logical fallacy, people won't respect you and guess what, they're more likely to downvote you here.

understanding and avoiding logical fallacies is like...debate and discourse 101.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

Funny thing is, the article on fallacies is one of the few things that both Wikipedia and Conservapedia agree on, both articles appear accurate. Of course, Conservapedia's examples are radically different

What I see you (and bobknight) do a lot is commit the "appeal to belief" fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html

you can believe whatever you want to believe, but when you pass your belief off as fact in the public arena without anything to back it up, you lose any credibility you may have earned.

>> ^shinyblurry:

I gave proof in the thread, most notably the 18 discarded posts I have. I'm not going to debate religion with you here. If you want to debate me, then msg me and pick a topic.
>> ^VoodooV:
see here we go with more fallacies.
"People downvote for ideological reasons (they hate religion)"
This is an untrue statement. Unless you've developed some mind reading abilities that I'm not aware of, you simply cannot know why people downvote.
You forget the most simple reason of all: Religion has zero basis in fact and/or reason, therefore it has zero grounds to be treated with any authority. especially in matters of public government."
If you're going to claim they just do it because of hate, you better: 1) back that up with actual evidence and arguments. and 2) ask yourself the very simple question: "If they do hate religion, do they have a good reason why?"
I'd be willing to bet the kids molested by priests can think of a view VERY GOOD reasons's why.

Semantics be damned, this is politics, the evolution of which (in the "parlance of our times") has produced an arena where anything may be said regardless of meaning in order to dupe, subvert, manipulate, lie, and destroy.

Romney and Obama are the same tools in the hands of their keepers. It would be exciting to watch both of their heads explode simultaneously on television as the result of their own gasses expanding too rapidly to be released

The arena was disbarred for her performance.

Launch date just announced: 28.8.12

...with a final beta weekend planed for 20.7.12

Great news!

Launch date just announced: 28.8.12

...with a final beta weekend planed for 20.7.12

Great news!

In reply to this comment by dannym3141:
That blurry guy is a complete cunt. Don't care what religion you are, you discuss things with an open mind and try to see the other's point of view rather than seeing them as an opponent. I'd be said if you stopped providing your input. Ignoring him is a solution - a LOT of people do.


Thanks for your response I'll think on it.

The other thing that usually drives me insane is that he'll ask questions about something I've JUST answered! BUT, his literal lack of knowledge (in this case general relativity and special relativity) is making him spout buffoon and sadly very uninformed statements or opinions, often aimed at me and my previous post (well-informed and standard--backed up with testing and experimentation); which as I said is hilarious as I already answered it in that post "right above" and he can't read between the lines to see that the answer is sitting the for all to see, he just doesn't understand the answer, nor do I think he ever will see it very soon to be VERY fair and blunt. His main issue is with telling himself the truth in the first place and he can't yet do that with simple children's stories--not to be a snob or complete snide remark, but it is merely a fact that he will not accept the truth--faith and platitudes are far more important to him in his life right now than are being able to build:

An arena that can fit 100,000 people at night and day with the top open and closed; elevators, cashiers, electricity, Wi-Fi, air-conditioning, heating, sound, seating, walk-paths and stairs, vendors--food and accessories, security, camera & video, HDTV and a HD-JUMBOTRON, housing for teams and workers/staff, office space, etc, etc, etc... Places that are amazing to behold in their construction and if you're part of the management of the construction at any level or you have to be THE manager that keeps the building going once it's done you will find out very soon that a lot of what he says is utter rubbish; especially if you are the engineer that designed this Behemoth with every life in mind so that they would NOT be die to some kind of mental lapse; this is a job (like no other really) that has a HUGE amount of pressure on it and ALL THAT you have to rely on is: Physics (and that little brain of yours + a good calculator and drafting tools ). Does he have even any idea of how incredibly smart these people are, then he comes in and mocks Einstein like he's just this buffoon that of course NEVER thought of the COMPLETELY OBVIOUS stuff. He would NEVER do that; Einstein made people that build the greatest structures on Earth look like idiot children! I'm guessing that was skipped in seminary!? That little thing he thinks is so utterly useless to talk about in the grand scheme of things is so vitally important to everything he does EVERY day (and I really wonder if he knows HOW MUCH we depend on Science and it's discoveries--I mean your whole house would basically disappear without the inventions, it's a complete joke and I really do think he takes it for granted.

It's hard to EVER have a conversation with someone that loves their God SO MUCH they have their OWN God complex! I refuse to talk to a brick wall I'm not a damn mad man!

Anyway, thanks again.

BLAARGH!!! It just gets frustrating, especially when they don't seem to be trolls--so ignore it is.

" We really need to slap these minimum wage servants back to reality. I don't wanna see the monkey do tricks - I can hold down a job, family and house at once, nice work on juggling a bottle." - zaust

no 10 year old in a hoodie will ever redeem you from the epic levels of douchebaggery you have displayed.

>> ^zaust:

Oh whatever kiddie - the bands I listed all played the sonisphere and reading festivals in the uk last year. We ain't going to any festivals this year because we can't afford the extra tickets now our eldest has hit 13. Point was the combined 5 of us got bored about 1 min into this vid and clicked onto something else. Like I said Nice Trick but it's not like he's going to sell out an arena tour doing it.
PS Just in case you still think I'm a rich idiot/douche - check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnt4FAwhklY at exactly 2:26 there's a small blonde girl in a very big green hoodie in the bottom right hand corner. That's my 10 year old daughter wearing my wife's hoodie cause it was starting to rain sitting on my shoulders in the middle of a 50,000+ crowd watching slipknot.

Hahaha, you're a douche. There's not really much else we can say that you haven't already done for us. Thanks for proving our point. Enjoy your life out-of-touch.

>> ^zaust:

Oh whatever kiddie - the bands I listed all played the sonisphere and reading festivals in the uk last year. We ain't going to any festivals this year because we can't afford the extra tickets now our eldest has hit 13. Point was the combined 5 of us got bored about 1 min into this vid and clicked onto something else. Like I said Nice Trick but it's not like he's going to sell out an arena tour doing it.
PS Just in case you still think I'm a rich idiot/douche - check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnt4FAwhklY at exactly 2:26 there's a small blonde girl in a very big green hoodie in the bottom right hand corner. That's my 10 year old daughter wearing my wife's hoodie cause it was starting to rain sitting on my shoulders in the middle of a 50,000+ crowd watching slipknot.

Oh whatever kiddie - the bands I listed all played the sonisphere and reading festivals in the uk last year. We ain't going to any festivals this year because we can't afford the extra tickets now our eldest has hit 13. Point was the combined 5 of us got bored about 1 min into this vid and clicked onto something else. Like I said Nice Trick but it's not like he's going to sell out an arena tour doing it.

PS Just in case you still think I'm a rich idiot/douche - check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnt4FAwhklY at exactly 2:26 there's a small blonde girl in a very big green hoodie in the bottom right hand corner. That's my 10 year old daughter wearing my wife's hoodie cause it was starting to rain sitting on my shoulders in the middle of a 50,000+ crowd watching slipknot.

If this happened anywhere outside of a "professional" sports arena...the dude would be arrested. Artest is a punk and the NBA should suspend him for the rest of this season (playoffs included) and all of next season. But the odds of that happening??? HAHA!

>> ^UsesProzac:

Huh, I was a single girl on WoW and then I was a taken girl on WoW. Never experienced any of that except for perhaps a little unwanted attention both when single and not. Most of the time gender didn't even come up. There were sometimes jokes about making sandwiches and the like over vent during raids, but that wasn't the drama that usually happened. "Don't stand in fire you fucking idiot." <- That was.
It all depends on the person. It hurts me to see you make sweeping generalities like that.
I met my partner on WoW and now we have a child. I was a troll rogue and then I was a troll priest, just in case anyone was wondering. I didn't do much in the way of alts, spent way too much time on my main, which was the priest. Good luck finding a constant spot in a raid as a melee dps.
I used to raid five days a week and arena the other two. Oh, WoW. I'm glad I have a life outside of it, now!
>> ^Porksandwich:
My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.
OR
They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.
Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.
I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.



Not meant to be generalities, they are the experiences I had with the game. I think there were 4 women in the guild that I knew of. Could have been more, but I only knew the raiders or longer term members.

One was married to the guild leader, she used to ask for help to complete things and keep us waiting a good hour or two before she showed up. I didn't like her simply because she tried to treat the guild as her errand runners asking for help and having us wait so she could keep constantly busy. She got involved with a guy in the guild (not her husband) and that kicked off some events.

Next was young, and took a lot of the "sandwich" stuff you are talking about. She got involved with the married guild leader, that kicked off another bunch of stuff....probably 10-15 years difference. This is the husband of the one above....they had kids together and it basically split the guild right down the middle. The young girl involved with him had other admirers and tried to play a guy for the longest time only talking during certain raids. She was called all sorts of names once it came to light that she was dating the husband....no one really mentioned the wife doing the same thing. There was one guy she led on for a long time, they were friends and he thought it was more until he found out she was after the married guy. That started another ripple of problems...she left the guild for awhile to try to get him back as a friend, etc. As much stuff happened involving her, I think she did a lot of intentionally or was younger than she claimed. I generally liked her, but I had to wonder with as much stuff that cropped up around her as to what was going on there.

Another "involved" woman, who was either newly married or soon to be married to another guy in the guild was involved with the guy who was involved with the wife of the guild leader...the first woman I mentioned. That guy told me she was sending him pictures, and then she lost it when she found out he was involved with the other woman. Her husband/soon-to-be never suspected afaik. She was nice enough, but I was friends with her husband and I couldn't stand to hang around him anymore knowing all of this and him being in the dark.

Fourth woman was friends with a couple younger guys in the guild. Who used their vault access to steal a bunch of stuff from the vault and switch servers during a free move. She switched with them once it came to light they had stolen. Then renamed herself and came back, trying to hide her identity. She also tried to hide that she was female to the majority of the guild for a long time as well....she'd type most of her replies. Rarely spoke unless it was a tougher raid. I don't know if she had unwanted attention, or just made like she had unwanted attention from a few...because she moved with the guys she complained about on that free server move. The switch and hiding her identity was probably the worst of it involving her, and really she hadn't done anything wrong that anyone could see but she looked guilty as hell doing what she did. Then she defended those guy's actions who stole tabs and tabs of stuff from the vault before they left.

And yeah they all probably stick out because it was a lot of hub-bub involving them, and all the guys and gals involved were all culpable for their actions. But it was one guild that had more than 1 married woman in it and it failed spectacularly... Other guys in the guild would come hang out with me or solo play instead of doing guild stuff because it was toxic to be around most people in the guild with how everyone was supporting one or the other in just overall poor choices and questionable actions.

I am not saying all women in games are like this, but with this one experience with it made me want to stick to non-voice stuff so I couldn't identify the sex of anyone involved. And yeah I'd like to find a female who games.......but I'd actually like to continue enjoying games heh.

>> ^UsesProzac:

Huh, I was a single girl on WoW and then I was a taken girl on WoW. Never experienced any of that except for perhaps a little unwanted attention both when single and not. Most of the time gender didn't even come up. There were sometimes jokes about making sandwiches and the like over vent during raids, but that wasn't the drama that usually happened. "Don't stand in fire you fucking idiot." <- That was.
It all depends on the person. It hurts me to see you make sweeping generalities like that.
I met my partner on WoW and now we have a child. I was a troll rogue and then I was a troll priest, just in case anyone was wondering. I didn't do much in the way of alts, spent way too much time on my main, which was the priest. Good luck finding a constant spot in a raid as a melee dps.
I used to raid five days a week and arena the other two. Oh, WoW. I'm glad I have a life outside of it, now!
>> ^Porksandwich:
My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.
OR
They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.
Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.
I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.



Can you explain the appeal of the game? I've seen clips and it looks a bit ropey. Is it all the rpg elements combining to create an addictive experience as you'd expect or something more?