Free markets work best with healthy competition, which is not what they have right now in this particular sector. Force them to really compete, and maybe eventually we can even pull back on the public option completely after we have spurred diversity and true competition in this market.

I agree with you that Republicans are not offering constructive solutions, they're too busy battling this surreptitious end-run to communize the American health care system. When the Elephants were in charge, it is true they did little differently...partially for good reasons. If the Rs were for an actual free market health care approach (which would consist of deregulation and allowing health insurance to be sold across state lines) instead of Republican Brand Communism Lite, the taxocrats would attack as viciously as they did when the Rs suggested privatizing parts of Social Security.

If the "public option" makes it in, it will join the ranks of (Sc)Amtrak and the post office: insolvent, subsidized government welfare projects that will NEVER end, and will cost 10 times what the deceivers "projected".

When the hell was government made a lawful "competitor" with actual wealth-producing businesses? Why would you think anything the government does will LOWER costs?

If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free

10 percent of your fellow citizens are fucked when it comes to healthcare. Now, what do you propose to do about that? Nothing, right? Let the market handle it, let 'em pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

"Free" emergency rooms for all (including illegals), Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, SCHIP. Yeah, we just can't do ENOUGH for the statists. Why can't we be more like Sweden or the soviet union?

I propose not letting the geniuses behind Amtrak run medicine, preventing 100%* of citizens from being fucked.


*minus Congress, who refuse to be on this wonderful plan themselves

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
Currently HR3200 contains provisions for taxes (called 'fees') to the tune of $4K+ on any person who does not enroll in a government approved insurance program.

HR 3200 includes both employer and individual mandates to purchase insurance. If you don't qualify for Medicaid, Medicare, or employer plans, and choose not to purchase insurance, you have to pay a penalty. That penalty is 2.5% of your adjusted income if you're single, which means for that penalty to be $4K+, you need to have a taxable income (i.e. after deductions) of $160,000/yr.

It also includes progressive taxes on any household earning over 210K whether they participate or not.

False, HR 3200's progressive taxes start where I said they do; at $350K/yr. Who exactly do you imagine makes that much money and chooses not to buy insurance, or get it through their employer?

And premiums aren't taxes? Taxes are payments that go to the government. Premiums will be payments that go to the goverment.

No. This is like saying buying stamps or a ride on Amtrak is the same as paying income tax.

Even if I agree to your definition, it then becomes a voluntary "tax", because you are free to choose to buy private insurance instead of signing up for the public plan (or choose to pay the 2.5% penalty, if being uninsured is more appealing to you).

WPP, QM - It's pretty simple. America spends more per capita on healthcare than pretty much any other industrialized nation.

So what? When do liberals care what anything COSTS? If our health care costs were less, the difference would be wasted elsewhere in other ways, probably on gold-plated schools.

Almost 90% of Americans are happy with their health care even with the problems it has now.

Do you have a conceptual counter-argument for Weiner's point, that a private insurance company's first priority is profitability, not the health and well being of its customers? If you do, I'd love to hear it.

Yeah. Karl Marx was wrong. No matter the business, you cannot remove the profit motive from the equation and expect excellent or even adequate results. The soviets tried it...end result: with massive natural resources they lived in poverty. The profit motive is what makes a company value its customers' satisfaction. Even a heavily-regulated company is NOTHING like the nightmare of inefficiency in a government organization. FEMA, Amtrak, Post Office...

The Constitution is a "negative document", mostly dedicated to telling the federal government what it CANNOT do. If the feds were supposed to have a blank check and give the people whatever they demanded, the Founders would not have 'wasted time' being very specific about the limited powers granted.

That shyster, Lord Obama, is on record as saying the Constitution didn't go far enough in spreading the wealth around. He cannot be trusted.

This liberal sophistry about what the Constitution means, why not just go all the way and claim you have a "right" to a free home, car, high-paying job and a life free from struggle and pain? There's always another Ted Kennedy ready to spend someone else's money to make your dreams come true.

Again: WE'RE GOING BANKRUPT on all the entitlements (aka fake "rights") we've got now. We can't afford any more Christmases on the backs of yet-to-be-born generations. The tit's run dry.

This is a half-truth. The majority of Americans DO support a REFORM of the health care system, just not THIS ONE. Plainly there is a problem with health care in this country, but America does not think that giving the government the keys to it is the best fix. Look at Amtrak FFS. That was a disaster. And NO, and I say it literally, NO government-controlled previously-private-industry-controlled industry has EVER succeeded to expectations. EVER, to date.

Frequent and undeniable polls by every reputable source of polling say that people don't want socialized health care. We absolutely NEED to fund health care for those who have no access to it under our current system, but that does not mean that the government should run those programs.

Take it from a person paid by the government and paid for his work by government grants... me.
It takes a HUGE amount of work and PROOF to get a grant for work in my field. Meanwhile it takes a tiny bit or sheer conjecture and idealism to get 100,000 times that funding to get this bill passed. WTF! You should be upset that the government is willing to spend many hundreds of billions of borrowed dollars to fund an idea that might be bullocks to begin with. It's political bullshit based not in science, but in a simple idea. Look at the stats people!!!

Well, I think you did a good job of laying out a case against a strawman socialist. Shame you didn't really have much to say to me.

I suppose there is this:

The difference is that liberals want everybody to have stuff for free, conveniently disregarding the impractical aspect of "free" meaning "not producing anything in exchange" and "at the expense of productive people". I also want people to have their stuff while being guided by their selfish interest in profit, because that's what really leads to the most wealth being allowed to the most people.

Why does doing a little of what's in the first sentence prevent what you describe in the second sentence from happening?

If we raise the tax rate for people making more than $500,000/yr by 1%, are they all going to quit trying to make more money?

With regard to food, I don't want anyone living off the state on a permanent basis either. Seems that we can solve that by putting a time limit on the benefit for people of working age (18-65), who aren't disabled. I don't really have a problem feeding orphaned kids, seniors, and the disabled indefinitely, though.

Your bias seems to be that you can't see that I'm way right of center on the spectrum between socialist and anarcho-capitalist. You seem to think calling me a socialist frees you from having to make arguments about having against what I'm actually proposing, and instead give me canned arguments against socialism, as if they apply.

I don't see why we can't have your capitalist utopia, and also have a social safety net that provides some basic security to its citizens' lives.

We've got that mix now, I just want to patch some of the holes in the net. I'd be happy to privatize Amtrak and eliminate farm subsidies in return.

Hahah, what a douche-bag. In the clip from his show it's obvious he was trying to paint them as liberal effete too privileged to ride pedestrian joe-everyday Amtrak without having special reserved seats. Lying to drag someone's character through the mud, now I call that class.

Conservatives equate anything that doesn't agree with their fascist worldview with communism (or socialism), like if you support expanding a government program that has been proven a success, you must secretly be for genocide or something.

I'm for limited government (the non-magical kind that can't be everything to everyone) but even among Constitutionally-authorized government programs, let me know when you find one that works as it was supposed to and is efficient and fiscally accountable...

Your second response is pretty much the embodiment of why your favorite party is on the outs; you are so viciously hostile towards people who don't share every last facet of your worldview, you drive away people who might've been otherwise inclined to agree with some aspect of your philosophy.

The reason why Republicans are 'on the outs' (for now) is because this sorry-assed gang in DC are not conservatives. It's that simple. Drunk on their own power, they're trying to be like taxocrats, a deadly mistake because no Republican can outspend a taxocrat and shouldn't try.

Taxocrats are victims of what is called "bad becoming normal". The debate is no longer about how much money should be pissed away on Amtrak or Head Start each year, but stopping Obamarx and Friends from literally mutating the national DNA to suit their warped vision. Seriously, buying car companies, floating sht banks? The dickheads at the Fed, which should be abolished along with Fannie and Fartie? Get real. You may love everything Obama is doing, but rest assured, he doesn't care a whit whether you approve or not. Obama works for Obama.

Bush and his goddamned No Child, Medicare expansion, amnesty, etc. If Obama did all those things (and he is, only on steroids) he'd be praised by his media sycophants. Bush supposedly fcked up a lot of things he also gave the 'Crats most of what they wanted each fiscal year. And THAT'S why he's a failure.

Conservatism doesn't fail, it only gets overrun by parasites (both in DC and government housing) living off the working class the left pretends to love. If the left really gave a poop about the bourgeoisie, they'd let them keep more of the money they earn instead of trying to give all of fking Mexico "free" health care to buy votes.

I'm not waiting for socialists to agree with any or all of my philosophy: it's not worth sacrificing core principles for acceptance along the narrow, flimsy band between communism and capitalism.

I say again, Lefty, enjoy your hollow victory. For now, you've won. Libertarianism? Statistically speaking, no one's even heard of it.

The evidence that Big Guvmint socialism will fail and is failing is now all around you. Me. Us. They'll be no Bush to hide in this time.

>> ^jake:
20 years? Can you be more specific?


http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4312850.html

Amtrak has personally been debunking this for at least that amount of time. The conspiracy really had legs about 15 years ago (during Clinton), then gained traction again about 6-7 years ago (during the height of the Bush paranoia).

Depending on who you talk to, there are also: inverted barbed wire fences, windowless, two level train cars with interior shackles and UN logos painted on them, as well as the turnstyle entrances, and the blacked-out warehouses for the eventual gassing of all conservatives(under Obama) or liberals (under Bush).

If Ron Paul actually gave a shit about reality, then he wouldn't allow these lies to go uncontested, but then again this is the same guy who thinks Obama was installed, and that there's a NAFTA superhighway being built.

Funny this happened to me at the 30th st station in Philly, I was taking video though. The Amtrak security guy made me show him all the videos I took that day around Philadelphia, then he laughed and let me go.

When the MC's came, to live our their name
And to perform (forrrrm)
Some had, to snort cocaine (caiiinnne) to act insane (sannne)
with before Pete Rock-ed it on, now gone
that the mental plane (plaaanne) to spark the brain (brainnn)
with the building to be born
Yo RZA flip the track with the what to guy
Check em check chicka icka etta UHH

Fake niggaz get blitzed
and mic bites I swing swords and cut clowns
Shit is too swift to bite you record and write it down
I flow like the blood on a murder scene, like a syringe
on some loud howl shit, to insert a fiend
But it was yo ock, the shop stolen heart
Catch a swollen heart from not rollin smart
I put mad pressure, on phony wack rhymes that get hurt
Shit's played, like zodiac signs on sweatshirt
That's minimum, and feminine like sandals
My minimum table stacks a verse on a gamble
Energy is felt once the cards are dealt
With the impact of roundhouse kicks from black belts
that attack, the mic-fones like cyclones or typhoon
I represent from midnight to high noon
I don't waste ink, nigga I think
I drop megaton BOMBS more faster than you blink
Cause rhyme thoughts travel at a tremendous speed
Clouds of smoke, of natural blends of weed
Only under one circumstance is if I'm blunted
Turn that shit up, my clan in da front want it

I'm on a Mission, that niggaz say is Impossible
But when I swing my swords they all choppable
I be the body dropper, the heartbeat stopper
Child educator, plus head amputator
Cause niggaz styles are old like Mark 5 sneakers
Lyrics are weak, like clock radio speakers
Don't even stop in my station and attack
while your plan failed, hit the rail, like Amtrak
What the fuck for? Down by law, I make law
I be justice, I sentence that ass two to four
round the clock, that state pen time check it
With the pens I be stickin but you can't stick to crime
Came through with the Wu, slid off on the DL
I'm low-key like seashells, I rock these bells
Now come aboard, it's Medina bound
Into the chamber, and it's a whole different sound
It's a wide entrance, small exit like a funnel
So deep it's picked up on radios in tunnels
Niggaz are fascinated how the shit begin
Get vaccinated, my logo is branded in your skin

>> ^quantumushroom:
The truth doesn't need junk science, political correctness and price controls, plus an in-cahoots media to cover up the resulting failures. Liberals need all four.

You really don't realize that all four of those are hallmarks of the right-wing, do you?

Hallmarks? No. Your examples are marginal at best.

"Gay marriage ban, abortion ban" This isn't political correctness, it's a legitimate position of a majority of conservatives; not necessarily mine.

Price Controls become Big Business Subsidies. Not exactly. Price controls attempt to regulate markets to the detriment of a few over most (Nixon was guilty of them too) and while I don't care for the subsidies, it's a side effect of allowing government to give away money to anyone (farmers, Amtrak, airlines, 9-11 victims' families) without any precedent.

Difference is, we don't actually legislate Political Correctness

Except for hate crimes legislation and turning government schools into liberal indoctrination camps.

The jig is up. I didn't say "O'Doyle Rules!" I'm sayin' the new media is here to stay.

This is the text from Fox News on that "background story" link firefly posted (in case the news link dies in the future):

From Associated Press via Fox News at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302604,00.html

"I do think that he was a godsend," Betsy DeVall said in a story published Wednesday in The Greenville News. "I would be in a body bag in a million pieces."

No major injuries were reported.

Greer Police Sgt. Marcus O'Shields said he was parked nearby when saw DeVall turn onto the tracks early Tuesday. DeVall appeared to be lost, and she was on her cell phone trying to get directions to a friend's house, he said.

Another officer told O'Shields by radio that a train was coming, but DeVall could not move the car.

"About the same time is when I heard the train coming and I started to coaxing the driver and telling her we need to get out of the vehicle, we need to get off these tracks," O'Shields told CNN Wednesday. "At first, I don't think she realized what type of danger she was actually in until the train actually struck her vehicle."

Amtrak engineer Scott Lynch was going about 72 mph when he saw tail lights and O'Shields waving a flashlight, according to a police report. Lynch applied the emergency brakes, but could not stop the train in time.

A video from a dashboard camera in O'Shields' cruiser showed DeVall's car bursting into flames as the train pushed it down the tracks.

Two people on the train were treated with oxygen and one person suffered an injured knee, according to Amtrak spokeswoman Tracy Connell.

The train was delayed for 5 1/2 hours, then continued its journey from New Orleans to New York City.

Government is a necessary evil, not a panacea. If you think the same bureaucrats who can't/won't control the border, can't deliver the mail and run Amtrak at an annual loss of one billion dollars should be given control over your health care decisions, you get what you deserve.

what's with all these tornadoes lately? next time I travel I'm calling amtrak!