As an atheist, I can see why they'd want to fight this - you can be sure if they had "randomly" found a crescent with a star beside it, they wouldn't be including that in the memorial. This strikes me as exactly the same sort of deception as "Intelligent design" - sure, they mean God did it, they just won't say it out loud, so no one can object. The only reason they want to include this is because of the religious significance of the cross.

That being said, it seems like such a trivially thing to fight over. There are important areas to spend your time and resources on (Intelligent design being a good example), but stuff like this, and the "Seven in Heaven" street sign, just make them look petty and vindictive. I don't think it's doing anyone any favors.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'Neil deGrasse Tyson, newton, essay, intelligent design' to 'Neil deGrasse Tyson, newton, essay, intelligent design, god of the gaps' - edited by xxovercastxx

I was taught the basics of evolution (survival of the fittest) in high school, and I went to a private Christian school in Mississippi. I never heard of creationism or intelligent design until it was all over the news.

BWA?

Isn't the question "should intelligent design/creationism be taught in schools?" Would the answers be the same?

All faith in humanity lost. Serves me right for having faith.

But Bill O'Reilly said no one could understand natural events! This explanation with all of its "facts" and "logic" is a liberal plot to keep Intelligent Design out of schools!

(see how I shoehorned this into a political jab? pretty terrible, I admit)

I do literally believe the bible is true and the word of God..I think there may be a couple of things in the modern bibles that weren't there originally, but in general that it is literally true

1. I derive my faith formost from personal and special revelation, and generally from the word of God

2. I believe in the creation week of genesis

3. Yes; seeking the truth honestly is how I ended up being a Christian

4. Yes, I think science is of value..but I don't consider evolutionary theory science

5. I understand the scientific method. I consider that I am a layman however I know more than your average bear, enough to be dangerous to complacent atheists

>> ^messenger:
@<A rel="nofollow" class=profilelink title="member since January 21st, 2011" href="http://videosift.com/member/shinyblurry">shinyblurry
A few sincere questions so I can understand you better:

I don't think you're a bible literalist. If so, that answers all these questions.


1. Where do you derive your faith if not the literal words?
   
   
2. Assuming you believe in Intelligent Design,
   
   
   
   
   • do you believe it because it seems the most reasonable explanation to you, or because the Holy Bible says it's the truth?
     
     
   • if there were another theory that better explained creation, would you accept it?
   
   
   
3. Do you consider yourself a seeker of the truth, whatever that truth may be?
   
   
4. Do you consider that science has any value at all?
   
   
5. Do you consider that you understand the scientific process to such a degree that if you explained it to a scientist, the scientist would agree with you?

@shinyblurry
A few sincere questions so I can understand you better:

I don't think you're a bible literalist. If so, that answers all these questions.


1. Where do you derive your faith if not the literal words?
   
   
2. Assuming you believe in Intelligent Design,
   
   • do you believe it because it seems the most reasonable explanation to you, or because the Holy Bible says it's the truth?
     
   • if there were another theory that better explained creation, would you accept it?
   
   
3. Do you consider yourself a seeker of the truth, whatever that truth may be?
   
   
4. Do you consider that science has any value at all?
   
   
5. Do you consider that you understand the scientific process to such a degree that if you explained it to a scientist, the scientist would agree with you?

@Sagemind

Being a slave to another person is a wretched life.
Being a slave to a concept is unfathomable.
Religion is a concept of man.
Religion is a concept designed to subjugate and control a population.

Religion is a man made system that has been used for good and evil. We know God through faith alone.

There was a time when education was unheard of and only a relative few were exposed to it. Rulers kept everyone else dumb so they could be controlled. Religion was and always will be designed as a tool to control. In the beginning there were many sects and religions. As the religions caught hold, they slowly choked out as many other religions as they could to exercise their brand of control. Christianity happened to be one of the few that was more ruthless at destroying the others. (Many are documented in the bible - Genocide in the name of religion included.) The smaller religions only needed to be discredited and be called cults - as they continue to do today.

The early church was heavily persecuted by many different dictators. Believers were frequently martyred because they reufsed to worship other Gods. The expansion of the early church under these circumstances is one of the positive evidences for Gods existence as it is unlikely it could have happened in that climate of persecution. There was nothing to gain from being a Christian in those days except being an outcast.

Genocide is committed in the name of many things, and today the masses are no less controlled by secular Governments than they have been under religious ones. Bad behavior is not an exclusive to religion, it is the nature of man himself, who could corrupt anything beneficial. That people have acted badly in the name of Christianity isn't proof of anything except mans inherent corruption.

Now, many, many lifetimes later, man has become educated and has thrown the shackles of religion (a form of slavery) and science has emerged as we seek for fact instead of fiction. There are many who are still bound to religion and can't function without the masters hand to lead them. They have lost, it seems, the ability to reason, with cognitive thinking, on their own.

Many need the presence of a deity to explain the un-explainable. It's a neat fully-packaged explanation that never needs unwrapping. It is easy. It's man's nature to pick the easy route. To many it just makes more sense. To others, those more cerebral, they want to see what is underneath. They refuse to accept what is fed to them and dig a little deeper. What they find is a world of control and dominance but also a world of wonder where education can lead one on many journeys.

The question of whether the Universe is random or deliberately created is not only credible, but utterly necessary and fundemental to understanding who man is and how he relates to the Universe. Perhaps you should try Contrary to popular belief, intelligent design is a scientific theory which seeks to explain the Universe just as evolution does. The question of God is central to philosophy and our most noted philosophers have debated this question of Gods existence throughout recorded history. The complexity of life is inadequately explained by materialistic processes, and many of these theories, such as evolution, are metaphysical to begin with.

There is a percentage of the population that operates on the right side of the brain where zeros and one are absolutes and in-fact they are. They work on a puzzle where the pieces are scattered everywhere in a dark room. The pieces don't always fit perfectly so someone else pulls them apart and the big picture is corrected. Every once in a while a strobe light goes on and larger mistake is noticed and we go back to restructuring out truths.

Religion want's to turn out the lights forever, kick everyone out of the room and continue to control those free thinkers. Individuals with original thoughts scares religion. The control will crumble and individuality will rein. Their fear is that without the control, chaos will ensue. What they don't see is that to stifle education is to bring about that which they fear most.

The most basic and fundemental questions of life have not been advanced one iota. There is a higher truth operating here: Man advances theories of life which convenience his own personal hypocripsy and enable him to do evil without consequence. This is a basic truth:

John 3:20

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1 Corinthians 2:14

“The natural (unredeemed) man receiveth not the things of the (holy) Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

1 Corinthians 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I still am not sure which they fear most. Is it the chaos itself, because look around, it exists with or without religion and often because of religion. Or is it the fear of loosing out on the promise of a Utopian forever. A mythical heaven where every single person has a different definition of. A place of fantasy.

Religion works on some of you. You remain a cow in this life so that you can experience a better life later. Well, heads up people, This is the life and you've been duped. Religion has brain washed you to do it's bidding. You fight the good fight for what you've been told is true by a hierarchy of rulers who seek the top roles in dominance. This isn't just true in Christianity, it goes for all religions. You are the pawns, the people on the front lines, leading the way, taking the brunt of accusation while the leaders at the top live the good live. You send your money (tithes) to them while you scrape to live a decent life.

I neither came to Christianity out of fear, or because I desired another life over this one. Nor was I indoctrinated or persuaded. Rather I was instructed in the spirit, and received personal revelation of the truth. I came to it independently and my convinctions rest solely on that. Your belief about an interdepedence due to a weakness of mind or character is wholly invalid.

I for one will not erase myself to the "Greater Good" of a hierarchy that cares more about it's well being/proliferation than it cares for the individual thought of a free thinking individual. It is my nature to put my thoughts and opinions before those of a mindless juggernaut that is religion. I will not allow my free thought to be controlled, twisted or stifled by anyone or anything.

Anyone with self respect should feel the same. Giving up on reality and calling it faith is really just saying, "Wow, that's just to much to take in and comprehend, I'm just going to shut down now. I will never have to concern myself with trying to keep all the balls in the air anymore. I will let a God sit in the driver's seat and ride out the rest of my life as a passenger." On top of that you spend all your days yelling out the window that you've got it so easy, you don't have to drive, you'll get to enjoy things when you get to your destination. What you fail to see is the person in the driver's seat doesn't have a license to drive, or a body or anything, they are plain fiction and the end of the road is a brick wall. When will you look up and see that you should have taken the wheel and honored the privilege of the ride before it was too late.

This imagined heirarchy of yours is a convenient strawman for your arguments about personal freedom, but it doesn't bear out. There is no conspiracy here. The body of Christ is so fractured at this time that a belief there is a heirarchy of control is simply ludicrous. Belief in God is about personal conviction and personal responsibility. Convinction because we are all sinners who have transgressed Gods laws. Responsibility because God is the moral authority who judicates our lives. You seem to think you're free, but anyone who sins is a slave to sin. You seem to think you're without a god, but you have something you worship. Whether its something in the world, or in the case of many secular humanists, yourself, there is something out there that you bow down and kiss every day of your life. Your freedom is just another box that you feel comfortable in. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

1 Corinthians 13:11-13

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I have better things to do than to refute this. The evidence is freely available on the Internet from more reputable sources than Creation Science, but I don't want to waste my time sifting through your quote jungle to show that they are either quote mined or stated be a "creation scientist" aka a fraud.

Irreducible Complexity and Intelligent Design is a hoax, it's creation by another name and it is false. the video I linked above shows that, and there are many many more. If nothing else, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

And notice when you google Intelligent Design you ONLY get creation science sources. Why is that, I wonder?

Now refuting ID doesn't automatically make Evolution true, and vice versa. They are not linked except in that they want to explain the same thing.

Here's some basics on evolution which you might benefit from:

Actually, humanity has always understood the Universe was created. It's only since the theory of evolution that science butted in and claimed it wasn't true, yet of course has offered no actual evidence to prove it. Then they turned the argument around and claimed that since science hasn't explained everything, we have a God of the gaps. Yet the truth is, evolution *never* explained *anything*..it hasn't even been observed once! The only exception is the micro-evolution we see in kinds..as in one dog produces many kinds of different dogs..but it always produces according to its kind. A dog never produces a non-dog, which actually disputes the central tenant of the theory.. Now because evolution has been taught in the classrooms as fact people have faith in evolution instead of in God. The theory of evolution is a metaphysical belief. It is a religious claim that has no evidence.

I'll give a quick example. Take stellar evolution, for example. Did you know that no one has actually ever seen a star or planet being formed? According to stellar evolution, it should be common, and we can see literally trillions of stars from here. Does that make any sense to you? According to the bible, however, they were all created at the same time, and the evidence agrees with that. Did you know that according to scientific evidence of the age of the Universe we should see hundreds of millions of dead stars? Yet, funnily enough we only see a few hundred. If you do any actual investigation into the theory, you will see that's all it is..


>> ^acidSpine:
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/smilecute.gif">
But it's not a theory in a scientific sense, it's really a hypothesis. One that goes like...
A creator (Jesus) made the universe and everything in it by magic.
The evidence for this is that science hasn't explained absolutely everything possible to me in ways I can comprehend.
There are no ways to test this idea, in scientific terms it's unfalsifiable, like me saying my pet cat created the universe last Thursday.
Identical to the pet cat "theory" the god hypothesis helps us to understand the nature of the universe in a scientific sense exactly not at all.
So there's an idea with no evidence that can't make predictions and can't be tested and you say it's a valid Theory?
I ask again are you at all surprised science doesn't want anything to do with intelligent design?

But it's not a theory in a scientific sense, it's really a hypothesis. One that goes like...

A creator (Jesus) made the universe and everything in it by magic.

The evidence for this is that science hasn't explained absolutely everything possible to me in ways I can comprehend.

There are no ways to test this idea, in scientific terms it's unfalsifiable, like me saying my pet cat created the universe last Thursday.

Identical to the pet cat "theory" the god hypothesis helps us to understand the nature of the universe in a scientific sense exactly not at all.

So there's an idea with no evidence that can't make predictions and can't be tested and you say it's a valid Theory?

I ask again are you at all surprised science doesn't want anything to do with intelligent design?

That's what I believe..and intelligent design is a valid theory. I think you would have to pretty arrogant to think that there was no possibility of the Universe being created..and if it was, we will see evidence of design. Why is that a non-idea? If the Universe was created, science should be able to verify it..take for example, the DNA molecule, which is a digital information storage device with redundant error correction overlapping information, specified and complex information, and has syntax grammar and punctuation.. any programmer could tell you the likelyhood of that arising out of random mutation is laughable. its been compared to a print shop exploding into the encyclopedia brittanica. But science seems to think a trillion monkeys at a trillion type writers *will* eventually write shakesphere. but according to them our ancestors are rocks..i think i might buy that if it was a much closer relation.
>> ^acidSpine:
So... Your god did it?
Can I ask if you're at all surprised science doesn't want anything to do with these non-ideas?In reply to this comment by shinyblurry:
The cambrian explosion is a mystery and cannot be explained away by darwinian theory no matter how loudly people shout and stomp their feet.

By the way, i downvoted this video, because Behe doesnt deserve the platform. He's lying about biology, and he KNOWS he is lying. All his arguments (basically just one) was pulverized by real scientists in the Dover trial RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS EYES, he was shown flagellums with missing parts, people explained how things evolve new functions etc. and he was forced to accept that "intelligent design theory" is no more scientific than astrology.

From Wikipedia:

Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fiftyeight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough"

The guy is a deluded fraud and a liar who is completely unwilling to understand or accept evolution in the face of the overwhelming evidence that has been, on occasion, personally presented to him.

Instead of doing what any scientist and reasonable person would do, and discard his long-since disproven nonsense, he keeps trotting out the same baloney, in an attempt to fool people who know nothing about biology.

He is also, according to his own son, religiously retarded on other levels, when his son became an atheist, he basically forbade him to talk to his younger siblings. (http://breakingspells.net/son-of-michael-behe-discusses-his-atheism/)

Religious, deluded, dishonest nutcase

>> ^shinyblurry:

What's less intelligent, having a discussion about what you believe or jumping into that discussion and filling it with baseless accusations and ad homs? I'll let rationality decide that one. Don't put words in my mouth and don't attempt explain what you think I know.
I'll give you an example of the ridiculousness of evolutionary theory. Many evolutionists claim that the wings of an ostrich are a vestigal part. Despite the fact that anyone with a brain could observe that ostriches use their wings for quite a number of things, evolutionists claim that its on its way out. Well, the oldest ostrich fossil we have is around 50 or 60 million years old. Guess what? Its exactly the same. So even though the ostrich wing is supposed to be a vestigal part, it hasn't changed in 60 million years. Yet, scientists claim that humans evolved in the last 4 to 5 million years. See anything wrong here? With the enlightening commentary you've already produced, im guessing no.
>> ^westy:
shinyblurry position is based on the fact that he believes the bible is the word of god , so everything he is saying is based on him "knowing" that god exists so the science has to be wrong until it matches up with his belief that the bible is the word of god.
If u have sum one that thinks the bible is the word of god how can you exspect them to have a resnable conversation on things that requre a deeper understanding of the scientific method or cognagtive skills to interpret information thats available .
you would not expect sum one that can only draw stick men to suddenly be able to draw a relastic portrate. Given that its always worth encouraging them and helping point them in the right direction and in the long run they might evan be able to teach you a thing or two.



"What's less intelligent, having a discussion about what you believe or jumping into that discussion and filling it with baseless accusations and ad homs?"

The exact point of what i said is specifically that until sum-one understands or can demonstrait a basic grasp of the foundations of what they are talking about , its incredibly likely that all conversation with them will be waisted until you address the key issue thats holding them back.

The problem is Evolution is very well explained and demonstrated but creationists will ether ignore the scentific evidence presented to them or they will keep pointing to places science is yet to explain and then use that as a justification for intelligent design.

The only reason creationists are so keen to hold onto intelligent design and have a bias for it ( despite all the evidence that points to evolution) is because they believe the bible (whatever book they believe in) is the word of god.

The other issue with talking to Creationists online is its near imposable to tell if they are trolling. Why don't you phone up the atheist exsperance they will get to the route of what you believe and explain why a belief in a specific god is unfounded far faster than I could and and I'm sure most people on this website could.

Contact them hear tv@atheist-community.org

So it's like intelligent design..?