If by spirit, I can infer electrical state, then I'm cool with that.

In general, faith is a mechanism to stop asking questions, this is what I mean when it detracts curiosity. I'm glad yours is not like that.

>> ^enoch:

@qwiz665
right on brother.
i am glad you posted that last comment.people needed to see that you were not some rabid atheist raging against a theosophic world.
you rage against bigotry,incuriosity,hypocrisy and the dumbing down of your fellow man by way of religious decree.
and on that point my brother i would stand side by side with you.
on your points that my faith somehow detracts from my curiosity or wonder is patently wrong.it is quite the opposite and i am sure it is for most people of faith.the fundamentalist is the one who struggles with new discoveries,because those discoveries may contradict holy writ.
i am not shackled by such limitations.
in fact,every discovery man has made has only illuminated the wonder and brilliance of this creative universe.
if we were to trim down the myriad redundancies between my faith and an atheist it would simply be this:(this of for you too @ghark)
we are creatures of spirit made manifest by flesh.
thats it.we are spiritual beings.
that spirit is the spark of the divine and reflects the nature of the divine.
bill hicks said it right:

@qwiz665
right on brother.
i am glad you posted that last comment.people needed to see that you were not some rabid atheist raging against a theosophic world.
you rage against bigotry,incuriosity,hypocrisy and the dumbing down of your fellow man by way of religious decree.
and on that point my brother i would stand side by side with you.

on your points that my faith somehow detracts from my curiosity or wonder is patently wrong.it is quite the opposite and i am sure it is for most people of faith.the fundamentalist is the one who struggles with new discoveries,because those discoveries may contradict holy writ.
i am not shackled by such limitations.
in fact,every discovery man has made has only illuminated the wonder and brilliance of this creative universe.

if we were to trim down the myriad redundancies between my faith and an atheist it would simply be this:(this of for you too @ghark)
we are creatures of spirit made manifest by flesh.
thats it.we are spiritual beings.
that spirit is the spark of the divine and reflects the nature of the divine.
bill hicks said it right:

No, stating that someones opinion on a matter that is based on reading or some other form of research is inferior to an opinion that is based upon visiting the locale is indeed an appeal to authority . Argumemnts hold up based on logic and fact, not on who is making the argument.



As far as the AD hominem, I am indeed serious, and I have not made any personal attacks, I would appreciate a modicum of respect in that regard.

If you are not aware of where you are guilty of employing these fallacies, don't attempt to deflect by attempting to point out some misuse on my part.

Your Opinion of Hitchens differs from mine. Hitchens vs carlin or hicks is debatable, but I would opine that his career pales in comparison to Sagan and yes even Suzuki. You see, neither of them had to go back and apologize repeatedly for being wrong, insultingly wrong, or drunk and wrong.

>> ^obscenesimian:

Just Because I disagree with you does not mean that I need to read up on Christopher Hitchens. I thought he was remarkably wrong very often. But at least he did have the decency to admit when he hadn't thought a position through well enough.
>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^
>>


I think you slightly diminish Hitch's name including Carlin, Hicks and Suzuki. Even Chomsky only bares inclusion for his great heights in the past.
I get your point, but you may want to read up on Hitchen's some more. He stood apart from almost everyone on your list by willingly putting himself in harms way to put his beliefs and understanding to the test, and in many cases surviving the ordeal to come back and declare that what he learned had changed his mind.



Oh be serious.

Carlin and Hicks were good and everything, but how much time did they spend in Cbua, Iraq, North Korea and Iran? How much of their lives did they dedicate to studying global conflicts and loudly debating their merits and demerits? Did they ever accomplish anything akin to "The trials of Henry Kissinger"?

You seriously devalue everything Hitchens was by likening him to a pair of very intelligent and insightful comedians. Their material was after all based on at best reading about the things Hitchens was off witnessing first hand. More over there can be no doubt that Hitchens own reading on any subject of import also badly dwarfed that of Carlin and Hicks put together.

Just Because I disagree with you does not mean that I need to read up on Christopher Hitchens. I thought he was remarkably wrong very often. But at least he did have the decency to admit when he hadn't thought a position through well enough.

>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^
>>


I think you slightly diminish Hitch's name including Carlin, Hicks and Suzuki. Even Chomsky only bares inclusion for his great heights in the past.
I get your point, but you may want to read up on Hitchen's some more. He stood apart from almost everyone on your list by willingly putting himself in harms way to put his beliefs and understanding to the test, and in many cases surviving the ordeal to come back and declare that what he learned had changed his mind.

>> ^obscenesimian:

Another man in our times that matches his caliber?
Let me list a few that pop into my head:
Noam Chomsky
Carl Sagan
George Carlin
Stephen Jay Gould
Richard Dawkins
David Suzuki
Douglas Adams
Bill Hicks.
Granted, they all differ, but they certainly hold up in my eyes.
The same thing could have been said when Sagan passed, but others moved in to fill his shoes.
It's all good, we just have to keep an eye out for the new person who is waiting to have a go.
>> ^bcglorf:
He will be so very sorely missed. I truly can not think of or name another man in our times that nearly matches his caliber.
....................
It is a very sad day and our world is considerably diminished by his loss.



I think you slightly diminish Hitch's name including Carlin, Hicks and Suzuki. Even Chomsky only bares inclusion for his great heights in the past.

I get your point, but you may want to read up on Hitchen's some more. He stood apart from almost everyone on your list by willingly putting himself in harms way to put his beliefs and understanding to the test, and in many cases surviving the ordeal to come back and declare that what he learned had changed his mind.

Another man in our times that matches his caliber?

Let me list a few that pop into my head:

Noam Chomsky
Carl Sagan
George Carlin
Stephen Jay Gould
Richard Dawkins
David Suzuki
Douglas Adams
Bill Hicks.

Granted, they all differ, but they certainly hold up in my eyes.

The same thing could have been said when Sagan passed, but others moved in to fill his shoes.

It's all good, we just have to keep an eye out for the new person who is waiting to have a go.

>> ^bcglorf:

He will be so very sorely missed. I truly can not think of or name another man in our times that nearly matches his caliber.
....................
It is a very sad day and our world is considerably diminished by his loss.

>> ^Yogi:

What in the living fuck are you babbling about tough guy? I'm sick of this "Salt of the earth hard working" Bullshit to describe Assholes who don't now how else to deal with their problems other than HIT THEM. I come from a family of Hicks with simple minds and hard working backgrounds...they don't go around beating the shit outa people they don't like just cause "That'll learn them."
Honest, good people...they're all a bunch of cunts.


I think you had a reasonable point in there somewhere - people who resort to violence aren't necessarily good, salt of the earth people. However, the "big man" doesn't hit this entitled little shit. He is physical, but he's not violent.

The little shit was holding everyone up and knew exactly what he was doing. The big man hauls him off the train and keeps him off and that's not really cool, however, there's a hundred people who probably just wanted to go home. He didn't use excessive force in throwing the little shit off the train or hurt the little shit. The big man shouldn't have been throwing the little shit off the train at all but under the circumstances, I don't have any sympathy for said little shit and if the cops are called and the little shit does suffer consequences, that won't give a hundred people back their wasted time.

I am assuming the kid knew what he was doing. I am assuming no excessive force was used - at one point they fall over but that's inevitable in a struggle.

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^dannym3141:
>> ^TheSofaKing:
Here they would arrest and sue the passenger for assaulting the guy with no ticket, and fire the employee for harassing a passenger who has found himself in a tough spot in life, unable to afford the fare.

Tbh, they would here as well, but the thing is that in the northern areas (and other select areas) of great britain (and you need to go further north each year sadly) people are a lot more what i guess you'd call "hard working, salt of the earth type people". People on the train would have just said "nah, he deserved it officer, no problem here" and the police would just go fair enough, lad's been a nobhead and justice has been served.
I mean even the people saying "there's no need for that" to the big guy when he slammed the guy down would still side with the big guy if it came to it, because they know the lad needs teaching a lesson. Hands-off softly softly parenting has given us a (my generation included) whole bunch of thoughtless twats who KNOW their actions have no consequences!
Love this kind of stuff. Honest, good people. Love em.

What in the living fuck are you babbling about tough guy? I'm sick of this "Salt of the earth hard working" Bullshit to describe Assholes who don't now how else to deal with their problems other than HIT THEM. I come from a family of Hicks with simple minds and hard working backgrounds...they don't go around beating the shit outa people they don't like just cause "That'll learn them."
Honest, good people...they're all a bunch of cunts.

The softly softly bullshit is the entire reason we have arrogant sub-30 year olds who are in no doubt of the fact that, at school, at home, in court, they do not need to fear consequences. Teachers hands are tied behind their fucking backs more every year that goes by. The system has been changed so much by people like you that kids have been given the CONFIDENCE to say to a teacher "what the fuck are you gonna do, you can't do anything to me, i'll sue you." Add to that absentee/non confrontational parenting at home and suddenly they think they're untouchable AND THEY'RE FUCKING RIGHT.
This kid needed teaching from a young age that doing something bad has consequences, and unfortunately little kids can't learn that through talking it out. A few short and non-painful lesson at age 4 would have saved this kid from the slam he took on the train. I hate these shitty parenting values, and we'll surely end up mired in shit if people like you have your way. Kid misbehaving - "please stop doing that, it's not faiiiiiiirrrrr" - that'll surely work right?
I'm honest, fair and certainly not a violent person. I do not advocate violence. Unfortunately, this kid was let down by his parents who failed to teach him the right lesson at the right time. And more unfortunately, the only way he's gonna learn is to get his arsed kicked when he's ~20. But hopefully getting his arsed kicked due to being a dick on a train will save an old lady from getting her handbag snatched because a little twat thinks he's untouchable.
"Tough guy?" "Cunt?" Get a fucking grip, there was absolutely no need to talk to me like that. You're worse than that little twat on the train!
BTW: do you find it in ANY way ironic that you came in advocating softly-softly yet swear and call me names, but i who advocate teaching the little turd a lesson have to rise above your insults and name calling? Is that a good way to advocate your method? I hope you learn something from that at least. You bloody well need to.


Bravo, DannyM, Bravo.

>> ^Yogi:

>> ^dannym3141:
>> ^TheSofaKing:
Here they would arrest and sue the passenger for assaulting the guy with no ticket, and fire the employee for harassing a passenger who has found himself in a tough spot in life, unable to afford the fare.

Tbh, they would here as well, but the thing is that in the northern areas (and other select areas) of great britain (and you need to go further north each year sadly) people are a lot more what i guess you'd call "hard working, salt of the earth type people". People on the train would have just said "nah, he deserved it officer, no problem here" and the police would just go fair enough, lad's been a nobhead and justice has been served.
I mean even the people saying "there's no need for that" to the big guy when he slammed the guy down would still side with the big guy if it came to it, because they know the lad needs teaching a lesson. Hands-off softly softly parenting has given us a (my generation included) whole bunch of thoughtless twats who KNOW their actions have no consequences!
Love this kind of stuff. Honest, good people. Love em.

What in the living fuck are you babbling about tough guy? I'm sick of this "Salt of the earth hard working" Bullshit to describe Assholes who don't now how else to deal with their problems other than HIT THEM. I come from a family of Hicks with simple minds and hard working backgrounds...they don't go around beating the shit outa people they don't like just cause "That'll learn them."
Honest, good people...they're all a bunch of cunts.


The softly softly bullshit is the entire reason we have arrogant sub-30 year olds who are in no doubt of the fact that, at school, at home, in court, they do not need to fear consequences. Teachers hands are tied behind their fucking backs more every year that goes by. The system has been changed so much by people like you that kids have been given the CONFIDENCE to say to a teacher "what the fuck are you gonna do, you can't do anything to me, i'll sue you." Add to that absentee/non confrontational parenting at home and suddenly they think they're untouchable AND THEY'RE FUCKING RIGHT.

This kid needed teaching from a young age that doing something bad has consequences, and unfortunately little kids can't learn that through talking it out. A few short and non-painful lesson at age 4 would have saved this kid from the slam he took on the train. I hate these shitty parenting values, and we'll surely end up mired in shit if people like you have your way. Kid misbehaving - "please stop doing that, it's not faiiiiiiirrrrr" - that'll surely work right?

I'm honest, fair and certainly not a violent person. I do not advocate violence. Unfortunately, this kid was let down by his parents who failed to teach him the right lesson at the right time. And more unfortunately, the only way he's gonna learn is to get his arsed kicked when he's ~20. But hopefully getting his arsed kicked due to being a dick on a train will save an old lady from getting her handbag snatched because a little twat thinks he's untouchable.

"Tough guy?" "Cunt?" Get a fucking grip, there was absolutely no need to talk to me like that. You're worse than that little twat on the train!

BTW: do you find it in ANY way ironic that you came in advocating softly-softly yet swear and call me names, but i who advocate teaching the little turd a lesson have to rise above your insults and name calling? Is that a good way to advocate your method? I hope you learn something from that at least. You bloody well need to.

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^TheSofaKing:
Here they would arrest and sue the passenger for assaulting the guy with no ticket, and fire the employee for harassing a passenger who has found himself in a tough spot in life, unable to afford the fare.

Tbh, they would here as well, but the thing is that in the northern areas (and other select areas) of great britain (and you need to go further north each year sadly) people are a lot more what i guess you'd call "hard working, salt of the earth type people". People on the train would have just said "nah, he deserved it officer, no problem here" and the police would just go fair enough, lad's been a nobhead and justice has been served.
I mean even the people saying "there's no need for that" to the big guy when he slammed the guy down would still side with the big guy if it came to it, because they know the lad needs teaching a lesson. Hands-off softly softly parenting has given us a (my generation included) whole bunch of thoughtless twats who KNOW their actions have no consequences!
Love this kind of stuff. Honest, good people. Love em.


What in the living fuck are you babbling about tough guy? I'm sick of this "Salt of the earth hard working" Bullshit to describe Assholes who don't now how else to deal with their problems other than HIT THEM. I come from a family of Hicks with simple minds and hard working backgrounds...they don't go around beating the shit outa people they don't like just cause "That'll learn them."

Honest, good people...they're all a bunch of cunts.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

We're debating why we were attacked by a handful of radical folks
Pht - I can answer that in one word. Isreal. Next?
...whether or not our military engagement, specifically since WWII, has been productive in any measurable way...
Productive to who and in what way?
You see - to a leftist - your question is unanswerable. Like Ron Paul, leftists view any military intervention by the United States as unproductive. By their very natures it is literally impossible to supply a leftist with any response that they will find satisfactory. Leftists come from a particular philosophy and perspective that disallows the word 'productive' to be used in the same sentence as 'American military engagement'. Heck to this day there are leftists who even question whether the US should have gotten involved in WW1 or WW2 or not.
Other people with other perspectives are not quite so closed-minded about whether or not a military action was 'productive' or not because they allow other definitions of 'productive' to be satisfied. But to a Proglibdyte, ANY US military action is viewed as unproductive.

Bollocks. I'm a socialist and I firmly believe that not only was America right to get involved in WW2, it was right to get involved in Libya recently.

Typical "rightist" attitude. You can't see any nuance or context. The left opposed Americas intervention in Vietnam, in Iraq and guess what? They turned out to be fucking right. Hell, I don't even remember that much left wing opposition to gulf war 1, other than the likes of Bill Hicks pointing out the ridiculous position you were in was largely of your own making.

As for "American exceptionalism", the USA had some grand ideals, and should be commended for that. But the reason it occupies the place it does in the world today is down to geology (it was rich in natural resources) and geography (America has never had a strong belligerent neighbour). So really, more down to good luck than good management.

>> ^SaNdMaN:

"Im not a big fan of Ricky Gervais, but he did say in an radio-interview many years ago that the only american stand-up-artist he really admired was Patrice."
That doesn't seem right. He's always said that he was mainly influenced by American comedians.



hi sandman, i gladly admit that you are right, ofc he he was influenced by americans, but this was as far as i remember a small independant radiostation where he said something like that, and didnt feel need to mention some mainstream comedians. i cant remember his exact words, admire is likely not the right word, but he was talking about stand-up comedians, and if he had to mention one that he felt was worth mentioning, it was patrice. think it was because of his bravery and honesty, he would just talk about things as as they are and fear nothing, thats why he never became mainstream, a big hit. patrice hit me straight in the heart when i saw him first time, because im am a european that used to live in the states, and i wasnt used to seeing an american being so brutally honest about what amaericans are, talk so straight about raceism or relations between the sexes. you cant say whatever you want in the states if you want to become successful, but patrice didnt hesitate to do so. things are not only fxxked in the states, over here is the same situation, except i think europeans in some cases, not all, are a little better at admitting their flaws. patrice was a thinker, always questioning things, and therefor he saw the crazy sillyness in our lives and could make fun of it. gervais could have mentioned hicks, carlin and so on....the only humble american comedian i know of alive today is lewis black, chris rock is good at pokin fun at racism, patrice just took it one step further.

>> ^A10anis:

He says; "It's a joke, i wasn't being serious or trying to make a point."
I don't think Bill Hicks or George Carlin (to name just two) would be in that catagory of comedian. Their whole comic agenda was to make points about everything, whilst wrapped up in the guise of comedy.


You know what, I thought exactly the same thing. But then Jimmy Carr definitely isn't the type of comedian to sell you his beliefs, he just-tells-jokes.

He says; "It's a joke, i wasn't being serious or trying to make a point."
I don't think Bill Hicks or George Carlin (to name just two) would be in that catagory of comedian. Their whole comic agenda was to make points about everything, whilst wrapped up in the guise of comedy.