Russ Feingold = Successful Democrat

Yet, he believes in smaller government, against torture, against FISA, for individual rights (including 2nd amendment), and against the Iraq War.

On another note, I've got to add a new story that was breaking late yesterday through to today: Obama has named Leon Panetta to head the CIA.

Already we've heard from Jay Rockefeller (outgoing head of the Intelligence Committee) and Diane Feinstein (incoming head of the Intelligence Committee) say that they weren't consulted on the pick, and are concerned with Panetta's appointment.

Oh, and those are both Democrats.

Thing is, they're both the ringleaders of the pro-PATRIOT, pro-FISA, torture-neutral, telecomm immunity advocates in the Democratic caucus in the Senate.

Holder's nomination is important to me because of its implications for having justice brought to bear on the Bushies for torture & spying, but Panetta's appointment may be an even larger signal that this will be a subject Obama really wants to tackle, as Panetta has been riotously opposed to both the torture and domestic surveillance programs in the past.

The fact that Obama's otherwise meticulous transition team neglected to contact either ranking Senator on the Intelligence committee makes me wonder if they're sending a message to those two.

I guess time will tell. In any case, if the speculations are right, this will be one hell of a confirmation battle too.

MG, you're super-late on this. This happened in July, and we pretty much plastered the sift with videos about it. Do a search for FISA.

At the time, I took solace in the fact that his stated position was the right one, that the 4th amendment requires a court to issue warrants for this level of surveillance, and that we should bring it to an end. I was sore over the fact that he had a choice between making a big stand and having a knock-down drag-out political fight over it, or quietly acquiescing, and he backed down.

I'd chalk that up to political calculation, really, but I'd rather he back down on that one, and help his chances of becoming President (who controls those wiretaps in the first place), than stage the fight, maybe win, maybe lose, and have it cost him the Presidency, and put Grampy McSame, puppet for Republican thugs, at the listening end of those wiretaps.

With some distance, and now the certainty that Obama will be President, I'm starting to wonder if the issue of telecomm immunity was being overblown by the netroots. Now that we're going to have a Democratically controlled DOJ, investigations into the possible law-breaking done from the government side can be done, and since the telecomms are immune, they should be free to provide evidence/testimony for the criminal charges leveled at Dick & George.

All that said, I am a little puzzled at your use of "messiah", as many have pointed out, only his detractors call him that. Those of us who like the guy are excited because he's right on so many things we like, and he conveys the message in such a compelling way that we're excited to see what he can do.

We don't like the triangulation he does on gay marriage (says he's against calling it marriage, but wants legally equivalent civil unions). We don't like how he keeps being nice to Republicans, and treating them like they're human. We aren't too excited about some of the things he's said about foreign policy, or pumping up the military budget. But those are trifles compared to the large mass of things he agrees with us on.

So, in closing, let me lay out my response to the BS about "lesser of two evils" one last time (or at least until 2012): the 2008 election isn't a choice between the lesser of two evils, it was the choice between McCain who was 95% evil, 5% good, and Obama who's 98% good, and 2% evil. Sure, that's technically the "lesser of two evils" but it's not like it was a close call.

After all, had we lost, Vice President Palin's daughter's mother-in-law would be the top news story for her arrest on possible drug dealing, and no one would know how to pronounce or spell Blagojevich, and I'd be talking with an emigration lawyer, and shopping for a new country to live in.

I think this is a pretty *quality discussion here, and I'm sorry that you're lumping in everyone who dislikes McCain in a neat group called "the left".

I've never voted for a winning president before, having only voted third party my entire life. This year is different.

I think you may be confusing the idea of "party-loyalty" with a whole shitload of citizens who are sick to death of what the neo-conservative movement has done to our country, our constitution, and our treasury.

Never before have I seen this happen; from authorizing torture of our citizens, to FISA, PATRIOT ACT, Iraq War, Katrina, My Pet Goat, the impending recession, "bomb bomb Iran", "you're with us or against us", giving up on the middle-east peace process, gutting regulations, making a laughing stock out of the EPA and the FDA....the list goes on and on and on.

So please, forgive us for getting a little fuckin' cranky about this. But this country, and this constitution is all we got. And the idea that a person like Barack (screw Kerry and the Gore of 2000) who not only possesses great oratory skills and a 360degree worldview, but who could also be the first black POTUS, brings a big goddamn smile to a lot of faces in this country.


cheers

(ps: i now have a gold star!)

You're wasting your meal if you don't go to McD or BK!!!

You're wasting your drink if you don't drink Coke or Pepsi!!!



Anyone that says third party voting is a waste is just another prop holding up the artificial bullsh-t duopoly that has taken over American politics. Look, both parties are insanely corrupt and wasteful and could give less a crap. I guarantee if the US had five parties then we would not have bullsh-t and half-retards like Bush or Palin. We wouldn't have FISA, telecom immunity, rich people bailout.

>> ^BillOreilly:
and it's well known that Obama wants to do away with our guns, just look at his history


I just did:
http://www.gunlawnews.org/Senators/Barack-Obama.html

There are all of his votes.

One for providing a trigger lock with all gun purchases (except private sales).
One for allowing the AG to define what an "armor piercing bullet" is.
One for letting children under 17 right to trial.
One that says the DHS can't use its funds to confiscate weapons.
One (S.397) that even pro-gun activists called a "non issue".

And a couple of others that contain a lot of confusing language, and many many bills, but nothing that says "let's do away with our guns".


I really REALLY dislike Obama's stances on: FISA, Iran, same-sex marriage, and the unconstitutional scam that is "faith based initiatives".

The list is too f-ing long. FISA, now supporting the "surge", plans to keep troops in Iraq (yes two more years is 2000 too many dead Americans).

How about keeping with the Democratic tradition of doing everything he can to lose. Explain to me how with this economy he is so close in the polls and losing in electoral votes. How with the disaster that Bush has caused and all the GOP scandals and convictions and unpopular war, unemployment, current stock market crash... How can he be losing? It's truly insane.

>> ^WolfDemon:
We are a country of whiners. People are ALWAYS complaining about something. Nobody is ever happy and everyone is waiting for our leaders to screw up. I'm sure if Obama is elected it won't be long before people start griping about how Obama runs things.


I think I'm ahead of the curve on this -- I've already started complaining about how Obama is running things (*cough* FISA Amendment Act). That doesn't change the fact that the "Nation of whiners" comment was despicable... The implication was not that Americans like to complain, but that the economic woes of the country are all in our head (mental recession, anyone?). It really burns when the guy who practically architected the collapse tries to blame his own failed policies on some imagined fault of the American people.

For the record, the "just a public speaker" comment comes up short too. Ignoring for a moment all of the work he has done for his degree in law, his time in the Illinois State Senate, and as a community organizer (for Chicago's South Side!), he still has an impressive U.S. Senate record. Sponsoring 136 bills is not exactly the sign of someone who does nothing but public speaking.

Who here has any right to any knowledge enough to decide if Biden is healthy or not?

Not a single one of us, that's for his personal medical doctor to decide.

Now, who here has sufficient proof that Obama is going to replace him with hillary?

No one. Except some random sites and rag tag rumors.

>> ^Fjnbk:
Sounds silly. The media would be talking about how Obama flunked his first executive decision and his candidacy would be over. Biden seems fine.


He is not an executive, therefore it is not an executive decision. Now, they would say its a bad tactical decision on par with bumbling McCain choice in palin, and would use that to pull the heat off of that subject.

But it would be a choice on health, so he has to choose the right person to replace.

I think that is bad for us constitutionalists, because they sell our liberty for a little bit of security. In which we deserve neither.

Small laws on 2nd amendment(bans on certian guns, and laws against defending ones house), free speech zones, patriot act, FISA amendments, and the expatriate act (That's the one that says you have to pay taxes if you want to move to Canada and be a Canadian). All of these serve eat our liberty alive, and make it so that they Judicial system doesn't have any teeth against the executive and legislative branch of the government.

EDIT: I don't need to list the republican parties transgressions on the constitution because we already know about that.

>> ^imstellar28:
does it really matter? anyone who is voting for either party has already lost sight of what's really at stake.
can anyone explain to me the differences between Obama/McCain's stance on:
1. preemptive warfare
"McCain supports the Bush Doctrine and Obama opposes it"

2. increasing the size of government
McCain talks the conservative game of smaller government but has supported all of Bush's expansion of the national government
Obama wants to expand healthcare and other social programs, but says that will come at the expense of other programs (subscribves to PAYGO philosophy)
Not so clear on this one

3. FISA
Obama pissed off liberals with support of FISA
McCain seems to be obfuscating his opinion

4. federal bailouts of businesses (such as feddie mae/frannie mac)
Obama - help homeowners shore up mortgages rather than bail out companies
McCain- too big to fail, bail out companies not speculative homeowners who are whining now

5. the federal reserve
neither cnadidate represents change on this issue (although it is a bit fringe for most americans to care about)

6. personal liberties
is this the FISA question again, or are we talking abortion? too vague to disinguish differences

7. bringing all troops home from all 741 military bases
Ridiculously leading topic that assumes that isolationism is the correct strategy

8. foreign policy in afghanistan
Obama - get Bin Laden, secure AFghan/Pakistani borderlands
McCain - get Bin Laden, but not in Pakistan. Iraq matters more

9. stance on the georgia/russia conflict
Obama - 'there needs to be active international engagement to peacefully address the disputes over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including a high-level and neutral international mediator, and a genuine international peacekeeping force – not simply Russian troops.'
McCain - Georgia conflict is the ‘first serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War.’ [RIGGGHHHT?!?] Russia's evil!

10. the ICC
Obama - consult with military commanders and examine the track record of the Court before reaching a decision on whether the U.S. should become a State Party to the ICC
McCain - 'the ICC was not set up for countries such as the U.S.'

11. inflation
gonna guess that they're both against it

12. income taxes
McCain- continue Bush cuts for wealthiest Americans, give a few pennies to those at the bottom
Obama - let Bush tax cuts expire, give tax breaks to 95% of Americans
graphical representation

13. the war on drugs
Obama - reduce sentences for dealers, needle exchange, nothing about foreign policy
McCain - stronger borders, tougher penalties and sentences, funded wars against drug producing countries (i.e., Colombia)

14. offshore drilling
Obama - can be part of energy plan if it helps gain approval
McCain - we're gonna drill our way outta this in just 2 years, wait 5 years, no 10 years (ok... never)

15. the patriot act
Obama - YES to re-authorization, NO to expanded wiretapping
McCain - YES to re-authorization, YES to expanded wiretapping

16. the graham-levin amendment
Obama - no guantanamo, yes to habeas corpus, no torture, no forced testimony
McCain - no guantanamo, no habeas corpus, no torture (but not really)

17. supported school of economics
Obama - Chicago school of economics
McCain - admitted he doesn't know much about economics

18. creationism
Obama - "religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking" from Audacity of Hope
McCain - doesn't believe in it but VP Palin sure does

19. agricultural subsidies
Obama - limit subsidies, try to get them to small farmers and not corporations
McCain - opposes subsidies, gets in the way of free trade agreements

20. social security entitlements
Obama - remove $97K cap, no privatization, no new commission
McCain - personal savings accounts, maybe raise the cap above $97K

21. the bureaucratic class
Got bored just thinking about researching this

22. national debt
Obama - repeal Bush cuts, end Iraq War, pay-as-you-go system, balanced budget
McCain - debt bad, balanced budget, stop pork and earmarks

I am more informed now, hope you are. Although that took way too long and I am a bit tired of it. If you want more, you can always start here: On the Issues.

does it really matter? anyone who is voting for either party has already lost sight of what's really at stake.

can anyone explain to me the differences between Obama/McCain's stance on:

1. preemptive warfare
2. increasing the size of government
3. FISA
4. federal bailouts of businesses (such as feddie mae/frannie mac)
5. the federal reserve
6. personal liberties
7. bringing all troops home from all 741 military bases
8. foreign policy in afghanistan
9. stance on the georgia/russia conflict
10. the ICC
11. inflation
12. income taxes
13. the war on drugs
14. offshore drilling
15. the patriot act
16. the graham-levin amendment
17. supported school of economics
18. creationism
19. agricultural subsidies
20. social security entitlements
21. the bureaucratic class
22. national debt

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Reality has a liberal bias.

Please post some videos about Obama the other Republican in the race. Obama said the Surge (tm) was a spectacular success. Obama is scary also with his mindless army of yes-men. You are welcome to post any video, the problem is that McCain's rovian campaign folks just keep posting ridiculous fear videos full of lies. They are targeted at the dumbest, easily scared American base that watches Wheel of Fortune and feel smart that they could "solve the puzzle, Pat".

People here are smarter than that, so yes, good luck posting any GOP talking points because "reality has a liberal bias".

For the record I hate these f-ing spineless moron Democrats who are too weak to fight for anything, ANYTHING!!! FISA, Iraq, stemcells, judicial appointments, US Atty scandal, perversion of DoJ... ANYTHING!! These Dems are so pathetic they turn an easy win during the worst economics since 1929 into LOSING IN THE POLLS TO TWO OF THE WORST CANDIDATES EVER. (Oldest and stupidest). How can they be losing? How can they not even boot Lieberman? What pathetic fucking loser. Both parties are about to implode from their inbreeding programs, or in the case of the GOP too much men's room sex.

Authentic, off the cuff, sincere, funny. It's too bad what you have to become in order to reach this level. Man, I like this guy.....but his top ten corporate donors are the same as hildogs and grampy mcsames....what's an American to do....really....wtf is a true American supposed to do? This is a constitutional lawyer who voted for the fisa bill...."Patriot" Act.....welcome to Amerika. Tim Russert might have been the last true journalist....I wonder what he was working on when he had his "heart attack"?

^Yeah. Obama's scorecard is only from a pool of 20 votes though. And of those he voted:

FOR the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (Senate)
On July 9, 2008, the Senate passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Amendments Act of 2008 (H.R. 6304) by a vote of 69-28. The ACLU opposed this legislation due to its failure to protect Fourth Amendment privacy rights for individual Americans. Specifically, it authorizes an unlawful warrantless surveillance program, while providing effective immunity to those telecommunications companies that assisted government surveillance even before the facts surrounding the full extent of this program are known.
FOR Patriot Act Reauthorization (Senate)
On March 2, 2006, the Senate passed the USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act
of 2005 by a vote of 89 to 10. The ACLU opposed this bill because it failed to add to the Patriot Act reasonable, necessary safeguards to protect civil liberties. It made many expiring provisions permanent, including provisions that allow the government to obtain a wide variety of private confidential records using National Security Letters, seek secret court orders under section 215, gag recipients of these record requests with only an illusory right to challenge, and secretly search homes and offices. The bill also expands the death penalty, limits protest rights at major events and coerces businesses to check their employees against flawed government watch lists.
FOR Judicial Review of Torture
On November 15, 2005, the Senate agreed to the Graham-Levin Amendment that would strip
detainees imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay of most of their due process protections. The ACLU
opposed the Graham-Levin Amendment because, by stripping detainees at Guantanamo Bay of
the ability to file habeas petitions and other claims in federal court, it unconstitutionally removed the
system of checks and balances for persons seeking protection against the government's use of
torture and abuse and other denials of due process. The amendment passed by a vote of 84 to 14
and was attached to the Defense Department Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006.


christ that was a pretty important 18%....

>> ^SpeveO:
Somehow I don't think Joe Biden, the man who bragged to Tim Russert about how the Patriot Act mirrored a lot of his proposed legislation in the Omnibus Counter-terrorism Act of 1995, is going to be part of the team that restores the American constitution.


Thanks for pointing that one out, I wasn't aware of it. Count that as a definite strike against him, but his scorecard from the ACLU is 91% in the 110th Congress (only because he missed a single crucial vote, after being named VP), and an 86% rating lifetime.

Obama's position on the Patriot act has been scrutinized, and while his ACLU scorecard shows 82% for FISA and Patriot votes, he's certainly talked a lot about wanting to replace them with better legislation that better protects people's rights (specifics are behind that link).

Contrast that to McCain's rating of 22% lifetime, with a 17% in the 110th Congress, and absolutely no mitigating commentary about it. He's even ducked voting against measures that would've precluded the CIA from using torture, even with his supposed opposition to torture (a minority view in the Republican party, mind you).

Goodness knows what Palin's scorecard would look like.

I'm standing by Obama and Biden being the team to restore the Constitution.