Don't forget the part where the Ayatollah is so unpopular among the majority of the population that you can't get a cab if you wear a beard. You also didn't mention how strongly pro-American that younger generation is. Condemn America's past covert ops, but be fair and condemn the Ayatollah's problems too. And try to keep the scope of the problems with the two in perspective as well. The youth of Iran probably understand which has hurt them the most better than we do over here.

Actually no.
The CIA overthrew the democratically elected president in favor for the shah (because we all know totalitarian regimes are better pawns then a democracy).

The now monarchy wasted money that could have helped the people by buying tons of luxury stuff (like art pieces).

After the people were finally fed up enough of them, they were overthrown, and the Ayatollah became the leading figure, locking away the decadence of the former despotes.

So... let's get this straight here... the shah (which embraced the beautiful aspects of art and wanted to share this with his people) was deposed (with the help of the CIA) then installing the Ayatollah Khomeinei - which hid these great works of art, suppressed freedom and even held Americans as hostages for lengthy periods of time. That's pretty messed up.

One of the country’s most prominent neoconservative pundits has been accused of using a fabricated quote from Iran’s supreme religious leader in pushing his argument that a US invasion is the only recourse to deter that country’s nuclear ambitions.

Norman Podhoretz is among the most vocal in urging President Bush to bomb Iran, and he has predicted the president will launch an attack before his term is up. Podhoretz’s argument is based on his belief that a nuclear-armed Iran would not be deterred from launching its missiles because its leaders do not fear their country’s destruction.

The Economist has called into question an oft-cited statement Podhoretz attributes to Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, saying it is likely “bogus.”

more here
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Neocon_accused_of_misquoting_Irans_leader_1119.html

As president of Iran, Ahmadinejad does not have control over military forces and can't declare war. Unfortunately these powers are given to the current Supreme Nutjob of Iran: Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

The president of Iran hates the government of Israel and views it as a corrupt regime that will collapse in on itself on its own. This is according to the actual translation of what he said. When Americans wanted Saddam's regime gone they didn't want to exterminate all Iraqis. The Ayatollah, however, wants the people of Israel wiped off the map. And plenty of Iranians running the newspapers side with the Ayatollah so they print their fanatic views instead of the president's views that match the U.N.'s resolutions against Israel.

I have a feeling that a war with Iran would be a disaster. It'd be best if everyone thoroughly investigates the reasons for war with Iran.

I find it unbelievable that the US can criticize Iran for things like this when the American government is responsible for bringing the Ayatollah into power the first place.

ok, bamdrew, though i won't say fair enough...

the daily show really shouldn't have it both ways - it's either a comedy show or it's a news program -- jon stewart on crossfire intimated that the show shouldn't be taken seriously because they followed a program where puppets make crank phone calls

if this is the source of other people's beliefs or 'what they've absorbed' then i can only shake my head - too many people are not sufficiently circumspect of what they accept as a source for their understandings

so, with no idea of why, what, or from where they draw their beliefs...

yes, i'll try to help in providing what they apparently can't or don't want to find

osama / taliban:

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/24-318760.html

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html

as to saddam, well, your contention and mine aren't specifically at cross purposes...

the tds clip appears to claim that our military sales to saddam made him too powerful to easily remove in any subsequent regime change

to this you bring up rumsfeld and intel - both of which, i'll wager, did very little to strengthen saddam vis a vis the tds claim -- the military sales / aid i already clarified in my first post here

only the most obtuse of revisionists will fail to remember the context of realpolitik of the early '80s -- the ayatollah's islamic revolution having just seized control of iran--as well as their taking and holding us hostages for 444 days (and finally releasing them just two years before the rumsfeld photo), and providing hezbollah support with which they kidnapped more americans in lebanon--meant that the us was pleased to have a secular foil on the arab street

you may find it interesting that, in speaking of the infamous photo op of saddam and rumsfeld shaking hands, for every such photo, i can provide you with at least five of jacques chirac and saddam

A similar situation occurred in Iran, also during the 19th century. The difference was, the religious leader didn't appeal as much to Americans for support, and instead of holding the titles "Dalai Lama," he's known as the "Ayatollah," effectively equivalent positions.

It is very hard for a non-Muslim to understand why this book is considered so offensive by Muslims. I shall try my best to explain.

The vast majority of Muslims have no problem with interrogating and criticising many of the negative elements apparent in the modern manifestation of Islam. In fact, that is something that a lot of us do anyway. Rushdie's work follows the narrative of the sacred texts of Islam almost exactly. What Muslims took offense to was Rushdie's deliberate attempt to rewrite the entirety of Muhammad's life in an abusive and obscene manner. For example, in his novel Rushdie refers to Muhammad as Mahound - a term coined in the Middle Ages in Christendom to describe the Prophet as a devil. Furthermore, he describes Muhammad's wives as prostitutes and whores, and implies that the mosque in Medina was little more than a brothel. For Muslims, the life of the Prophet Muhammad, and his wives, is a paradigm for Muslim behaviour and identity. That is why so many Muslims took personal offense at Rushdie's words.

All that being said, the reaction by some Muslims to the publication of the Satanic Verses was completely over the top and wrong - both from an objective and an Islamic perspective. If they had ignored the book it would have never received the attention it did. One of the sad things about the response to the book was that voices of moderation were completely drowned out. Many Muslims were caught between the intolerant and hateful rhetoric of the Ayatollah, and a response from the secular press and media which not only tarred all Muslims with the same brush - as intolerant, hateful, bigots - but which also seemed to contain strong elements of cultural racism. However, in 1989, at the height of the Rushdie affair, the great British Muslim - Zaki Badawi - called on Muslims to spurn the book but spare the man, and declared that he would not hesitate to offer the novelist sanctuary in his own home. In this spirit I will not upvote this - but I will not downvote it either.

yeah it really puts a sinister cast on this video http://www.videosift.com/video/Iranian-Ayatollahs-support-transexual-rights-and-sex-changes which previously seemed surprisingly progressive.

"I dunno guys, I must admit, while I was watching I did have the unsettling feeling that they kept hammering home the clash of cultures almost to the point of ridiculousness, that one should die for freedom, one should not be a slave to a potentate of the East, etc etc etc."

Raven's point is interesting - but I haven't seen the movie yet so I can't comment. All I will say is that the release of a movie about a small number of Westerners bravely holding off the advances of the oppressive East is interesting, and anti-Iranian and anti-Islamic elements in this country are singing the film's praises.

However, what is ironic about this is that some elements in the Iranian regime tried very hard to destroy Iran's non-Islamic heritage a few years ago. Ayatollah Sadeq Khalkhali - a particularly nasty individual with a penchant for strangling cats (no I'm not lying) - tried to destroy Persepolis - the old capital of Persia, just outside modern day Shiraz - a few years ago. He turned up in Shiraz with a whole load of bulldozers with the express intention of destroying the ruins of Persepolis. However, on hearing of his intentions, the people of Shiraz surrounded the site and eventually chased him out of town - literally. He only just escaped a lynching.

However, the vast majority of Iranians are enormously proud of their non-Islamic heritage, which has taken on a particular symbolic importance for those who oppose the regime.

"These people are not some monolithic religious force of evil. They're people, many and varied, with faults and curiousness and love just the same as everyone else and you owe it to yourself to admit such."

Well said gluonium!

This clip may interest you:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Iranian-Ayatollahs-support-transexual-rights-and-sex-changes

azamatbagatov - no one is saying that Iran is perfect or that discrimination doesn't exist there. We are simply arguing that the Iranian people are not the homogenous, hate-driven religious fanatics they are often portrayed as!

1949

* Harry Truman is inaugurated as US president after being elected in 1948 to his own term; previously he was sworn in following the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt.
* Doris Day enters the public spotlight with the films My Dream Is Yours and It's a Great Feeling as well as popular songs like "It's Magic"; divorces her second husband.
* Red China as the Communist Party of China wins the Chinese Civil War, establishing the People's Republic of China.
* Johnnie Ray signs his first recording contract with Okeh Records, although he won't become popular for another two years.
* South Pacific, the prize winning musical, opens on Broadway on April 7.
* Walter Winchell is an aggressive radio and newspaper journalist credited with inventing the gossip column.
* Joe DiMaggio is injured early in the season but makes a comeback in June and leads the New York Yankees to win the World Series.

1950

* Joe McCarthy, the US Senator, gains national attention and begins his anti-communist crusade with his Lincoln Day speech.
* Richard Nixon is first elected to the United States Senate.
* Studebaker a popular car company, is beginning its financial downfall.
* Television is becoming widespread (in black and white format) and becomes the most popular means of advertising.
* North Korea, South Korea engage in warfare as North Korea attacks on June 25, beginning the Korean War.
* Marilyn Monroe soars in popularity with five new movies including The Asphalt Jungle and All About Eve, and attempts suicide after death of lover Johnny Hyde. Monroe would later (1954) briefly marry Joe DiMaggio (the rhyme in the previous verse).

1951

* Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29 for espionage.
* H-Bomb is in the middle of its development as a nuclear weapon, announced in early 1950 and first tested in late 1952.
* Sugar Ray (Robinson) the boxer obtains the world's Middleweight title.
* Panmunjeom, the border village in Korea, is the location of truce talks between the parties of the Korean War.
* Brando (Marlon) is nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actor for the first time for his famous role in A Streetcar Named Desire
* The King and I opens on Broadway on March 29.
* and The Catcher in the Rye is a controversial novel by J. D. Salinger.

1952

* Eisenhower (Dwight D.) is first elected as U.S. president by a landslide.
* Vaccine for polio is privately tested by Jonas Salk.
* England's got a new Queen as George VI passes away and Elizabeth II succeeds to the throne of United Kingdom and the Commonwealth Realms.
* Marciano (Rocky) defeats Jersey Joe Walcott, becoming the world Heavyweight champion.
* Liberace has a popular 1950s television show for his musical entertainment.
* Santayana, good-bye as philosopher, essayist, poet, and novelist George Santayana dies on September 26.

1953

* Joseph Stalin dies on March 5, yielding his position as leader of the Soviet Union.
* Malenkov (Georgy Maksimilianovich) succeeds Stalin for six months following his death.
* Nasser (Gamal Abdel) acts as the true power behind the new Egyptian nation as Muhammad Naguib's minister of the interior.
* and Prokofiev (Sergei) the composer, dies on March 5, the same day as Stalin.
* Rockefeller (Winthrop) moves to Arkansas, the state where he will be elected governor.
* Campanella (Roy), a baseball catcher for the Brooklyn Dodgers, receives the National League's Most Valuable Player award for the second time.
* Communist bloc is a group of communist nations dominated by the Soviet Union at this time.

1954

* Roy Cohn resigns as Joseph McCarthy's chief counsel and enters private practice with the fall of McCarthy.
* Juan Perón spends his last full year as President of Argentina before a September 1955 coup.
* Toscanini (Arturo) is at the height of his fame as a conductor, performing regularly with the NBC Symphony Orchestra on national radio.
* Dacron is an early artificial fiber made from the same plastic as polyester.
* Dien Bien Phu falls as Viet Minh forces under Vo Nguyen Giap take over the Vietnamese village, leading to the creation of North Vietnam and South Vietnam.
* "Rock Around the Clock" is a hit single released by Bill Haley & His Comets in May, spurring worldwide interest in rock and roll.

1955

* Einstein (Albert) dies on April 18 at the age of 76.
* James Dean achieves success with East of Eden and Rebel Without a Cause, gets nominated for an Academy Award for Best Actor, and dies in a car accident on September 30.
* Brooklyn's got a winning team as the Brooklyn Dodgers win the World Series for the only time. (There is cheering in the background of the song during this line.)
* Davy Crockett is a Disney television series about the legendary frontiersman of the same name.
* Peter Pan is broadcast on TV live and in color from the 1954 version of the stage musical starring Mary Martin on March 7.
* Elvis Presley signs with RCA Records on November 21, beginning his pop career.
* Disneyland opens on July 17 as Walt Disney's first theme park.

1956

* Bardot (Brigitte) appears in her first mainstream film And God Created Woman and establishes an international reputation as a French "sex kitten".
* Budapest is the site of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution.
* Alabama is the site of the Montgomery Bus Boycott.
* Khrushchev (Nikita) makes his famous Secret Speech denouncing Stalin's "cult of personality" on February 23.
* Princess Grace (Grace Kelly) releases her last film High Society and marries Prince Rainier III of Monaco.
* Peyton Place, the best-selling novel by Grace Metalious, is published.
* Trouble in the Suez boils as Egypt nationalizes the Suez Canal on October 29, beginning the Suez Crisis.

1957

* Little Rock is the site of an anti-integration standoff as Governor Orval Faubus stops the Little Rock Nine from attending Little Rock Central High School, and President Eisenhower deploys the 101st Airborne Division to counteract him.
* Pasternak (Boris), the Russian author, publishes his famous novel Doctor Zhivago.
* Mickey Mantle is in the middle of his career as a famous New York Yankees' outfielder and American League All-Star for the sixth year in a row.
* Kerouac (Jack) publishes his first novel in seven years, On the Road.
* Sputnik is the first artificial satellite, launched by the Soviet Union on October 4.
* Chou Enlai is in the middle of his reign as Premier of the People's Republic of China.
* Bridge on the River Kwai is released as a film adaptation of the 1954 novel and receives seven Academy Awards.

1958

* Lebanon is engulfed in a political and religious crisis.
* Charles de Gaulle is elected first president of the French Fifth Republic following the Algerian Crisis.
* California baseball begins as the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants move to California and become the Los Angeles Dodgers and San Francisco Giants. They are the first major league teams west of Kansas City.
* Starkweather homicide captures the attention of Americans as serial killer Charles Starkweather kills eleven people before he is caught in a massive manhunt in Douglas, Wyoming.
* Children of thalidomide are born with birth defects caused by the sleeping aid and antiemetic, used to treat morning sickness as well (although not in the USA).

1959

* Buddy Holly dies in a plane crash on February 3 with Ritchie Valens and J. P. Richardson, "The Big Bopper". (As an intro to this stanza, Billy Joel mimics Buddy Holly's trademark "hiccup" style, singing a-UH-uh-oh...).
* Ben-Hur wins eleven Academy Awards as a film based around the New Testament starring Charlton Heston.
* Space monkeys Able and Miss Baker are the first living beings to successfully return to Earth from space aboard the flight Jupiter AM-18.
* Mafia are the centre of attention for the FBI and public attention builds to this organized crime society with an historically Sicilian/American origin.
* Hula hoops reach 100 million in sales as the latest toy fad.
* Castro (Fidel) comes to power after a revolution in Cuba and visits the United States later that year on an unofficial twelve-day tour.
* Edsel is a no-go as production of this car marketing disaster (Ford spent $400 million developing it) ends after only two years.

1960

* U-2: an American U-2 spy plane was shot down over the Soviet Union, causing the U-2 Crisis of 1960.
* Syngman Rhee: was rescued by the CIA after being forced to resign as leader of South Korea for allegedly fixing an election and embezzling more than twenty million U.S. dollars.
* Payola: was publicized due to Dick Clark's testimony before Congress and Alan Freed's public disgrace.
* and Kennedy (John F.): beats Richard Nixon in the November 8 general election amongst allegations of vote fraud.
* Chubby Checker: popularizes the dance The Twist with his song of the same name.
* Psycho: an Alfred Hitchcock thriller, based on a pulp novel by Robert Bloch and adapted by Joseph Stefano, which becomes a landmark in graphic violence and cinema sensationalism. The screeching violins heard briefly in the background are a trademark of the film's soundtrack.
* Belgians in the Congo: The Democratic Republic of the Congo was declared independent of Belgium on June 30, with Joseph Kasavubu as President and Patrice Lumumba as Prime Minister.

1961

* Hemingway (Ernest): commits suicide on July 2 after a long battle with depression.
* Eichmann (Adolf): is captured by Mossad agents in Argentina and tried for crimes against humanity.
* Stranger in a Strange Land: written by Robert A. Heinlein, is a breakthrough best-seller with themes of sexual freedom and liberation.
* Dylan (Bob): after a New York Times review by critic Robert Shelton, Dylan is signed to Columbia Records.
* Berlin: The Berlin Wall, which separates West Berlin from East Berlin and the rest of East Germany, is constructed.
* Bay of Pigs Invasion: failed attempt by United States-trained Cuban exiles to invade Cuba and overthrow Fidel Castro.

1962

* Lawrence of Arabia: the Academy Award-winning film based on the life of T. E. Lawrence starring Peter O'Toole premiers in America on December 16.
* British Beatlemania: The Beatles gain Ringo Starr as drummer and Brian Epstein as manager, and join the EMI's Parlophone label.
* Ole Miss: James Meredith integrates the University of Mississippi.
* John Glenn: flew the first American manned orbital mission termed "Friendship 7" on February 20.
* Liston beats Patterson: Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson fight for the world heavyweight championship on September 25, ending in a round-one knockout.

1963

* Pope Paul (VI): is elected to the papacy.
* Malcolm X: makes infamous statements about agreeing with the Kennedy assassination, thus causing the Nation of Islam to censure him.
* British Politician Sex: the Profumo Affair.
* JFK blown away, what else do I have to say?: President Kennedy is assassinated on November 22.

1965

* Birth control: in the early 1960s, oral contraceptives, popularly known as "the pill", first go on the market and are extremely popular. Griswold v. Connecticut in 1965 challenged a Connecticut law prohibiting contraceptives. In 1968, Pope Paul VI released a papal encyclical entitled Humanae Vitae which declared most birth control a sin.
* Ho Chi Minh: a Vietnamese Communist, who served as President of Vietnam from 1954–1969.

1968

* Richard Nixon back again: Nixon is elected in the 1968 presidential election of the United States.

1969

* Moon shot: refers to the Apollo 11, the first manned lunar landing.
* Woodstock: famous rock and roll festival of 1969 that came to represent the epitome of the counterculture movement.

1974

* Watergate: political scandal involving a hotel break-in, eventually leading to President Nixon's resignation in 1974.
* Punk rock: the Sex Pistols and their new sound become popular.

1977 (Note that these two items, while later chronologically than the two 1976 items, come immediately before them in the song)

* Begin (Menachem): becomes Prime Minister of Israel in 1977 and negotiates the Camp David Accords with Egypt's president in 1978.
* Reagan (Ronald): President of the United States from 1981 to 1989; attempted to run for president in 1976

1976 (Note that these two items, while earlier chronologically than the two 1977 items, come immediately after them in the song)

* Palestine: the Palestine Liberation Organization is admitted as a member of Arab League; see history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
* Terror on the airline: Numerous aircraft hijackings took place, specifically, the Palestinian hijack of Air France Flight 139 and the subsequent rescue at Entebbe Airport in Uganda, 1976.

1979

* Ayatollahs in Iran: during the Iranian Revolution of 1979, the West-backed and U.S.-installed Shah is overthrown as the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini gains power after years in exile.
* Russians in Afghanistan: Soviet forces fight a ten-year war in Afghanistan, from 1979 to 1989.

1983

* Wheel of Fortune: a hit television game show which has been TV's highest-rated syndicated program since 1983.
* Sally Ride: in 1983 she becomes the first American woman in space.
* Heavy metal, suicide: Billy Joel himself had previously stated on his website that even though the two terms are separated by a comma they are collectively one item (like "North Korea, South Korea" above). In the 1980s Ozzy Osbourne and the bands Metallica and Judas Priest were brought to court by parents who accused the musicians of hiding subliminal pro-suicide messages in their music.
* Foreign debts: Persistent US trade deficits lead to substantial foreign debt in the eyes of the 1980s period, particularly to Japan.
* Homeless vets: Veterans of the Vietnam war are homeless and impoverished.
* AIDS: A collection of symptoms and infections in humans resulting from the specific damage to the immune system caused by infection with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). It is first detected and recognized in the 1980s, on its way to becoming a pandemic.
* Crack: Refers to crack cocaine, a popular drug in the mid-to-late 1980s.

1984

* Bernie Goetz: On December 22, Goetz becomes a vigilante after being mugged four times; he shoots four young men who he believed to be threatening him on a New York City subway. Goetz was charged with attempted murder, but was acquitted of the charges.

1988

* Hypodermics on the shore: medical waste was found washed up on beaches in New Jersey after being illegally dumped at sea.

1989

* China's under martial law: On May 20, China declares martial law, enabling them to use force of arms to end the Tiananmen Square protests.
* Rock and roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore!: soft drink giants Coke and Pepsi each run marketing campaigns using popular music stars to reach the young adult demographic.

Choggie - I agree with you that the Iranian president Ahmadinejad is an ill-informed bigot. But you are wrong about the Iranian imams. Sure some of them are very orthodox, some are extremists and some are lunatics. But there are also some gems in the rough. For example, it may suprise you to know that amongst the Ayatollah Khomeini's closest advisers - the supreme religious council - there were imams like Abdel Karim Soroush (عبدالکريم سروش) who advocated the separation of church and state. There are still many imams in Iran who support true democracy and freedom of expression and who oppose the tyranical rule of an intolerant few.

Also don't use terms like 'ragheads' - this term is just as offensive to Arabs and Muslims as the term 'nigger' is to blacks. Please refrain from using derogatory racial abuse when making your points.