>> ^gwiz665:
"I don't even want or need an explanation." -- this is the whole problem, then.

it's not a problem.


It reminds of a Simpsons episode, then one where they find an "angel":
Flanders: "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"


hehe that's a nice way of putting it... but... i disagree that science can tell us how the movie ends.

As for House, well, good luck with your miserable and unprovable "truth".

>> ^bluecliff:
the problem is, some people love evidence too much



I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I've been looking for someone to elaborate on the whole "loving evidence too much", and I know you're probably not referring to my stance, but the statement piques my curiosity.

I'm a strong proponent of "everything in moderation", though, when it comes to things like evidence, shouldn't that be all which matters when you need to explain something?

>> ^MINK:
even as these guys are preaching their interpretation of "rationality"... real scientists are discovering alternate dimensions and completely different concepts of reality.


I had an interesting conversation on Thursday with a post-grad student studying Theoretical Physics, and he pointed out to me that no physicist has "discovered" an alternate dimension yet. Even String Theory (or the blanket M Theory) is a misnomer. They aren't really "theories", they are hypotheses. The Large Hadron Collider will hopefully prove the hypothesis of alternate dimensions, but at this point they are only on paper.

And while they might be discovering "different concepts of reality" our reality remains the same, have you noticed? Reality is reality, and discovering that there might be a dimensional Brane right next to me, right this moment, with an alternate version of me, possibly typing this in German instead of English does not change our reality. We merely understand another level of its complex nature. The physics in every day life won't get turned on its head, we'll just be a little more enlightened to the nature of the cosmos.


>> ^MINK:
Real scientists don't know shit, they research in wonder. Only the egomaniac publicity whores preach their "final answer" with such glee. These guys were so obviously bullied in school.


I take a slight cringing response to this broad and sweeping generalization of scientists. Referring to the first sentence, of course. "Real" scientists know an untold amount of things. Be it confirmed theories or merely suspected hypothesis. You are correct, however, by stating they research in wonder, that much is obvious. Without that child-like sense of wonder, amazement, and questioning of our reality, scientists wouldn't discover anything.

Just don't assume in an absolute that every scientist's ideas are resting on the edge of a blade. We're pretty confident in a good majority of our discoveries about our Universe, and our reality. Evolution, Gravity, DNA, the "Big Bang" come to mind.

The nice part about real scientists, though, is that when shown evidence that truly falsifies one of their theories, they will abandon it and take on the new facts, evidence, and theory.

>> ^SDGundamX:
>> ^ridesallyridenc:
Live and let live, people. Sheesh.

But that's the problem: the religious (who vastly outnumber us) are not willing to live and let live. They want to tell us who we can and can't marry depending on our gender. They want our kids to believe that evolution is "just a theory" by trying to force their religious beliefs to be taught in public education. They want to stifle medical and scientific research that could potentially save millions of lives. They want to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.
I don't think these guys are "pushing values" on this show. They're giving religious folk an opportunity to state their side of the case--something pretty much every caller has failed to do convincingly or even coherently (Loch Ness Monster, wtf?).


All true. And, at the same time, I can't help but feeling like two wrongs don't make a right. Being preachy is being preachy, and these guys have a particularly smug nature that just rubs me the wrong way.

>> ^ridesallyridenc:
Live and let live, people. Sheesh.


But that's the problem: the religious (who vastly outnumber us) are not willing to live and let live. They want to tell us who we can and can't marry depending on our gender. They want our kids to believe that evolution is "just a theory" by trying to force their religious beliefs to be taught in public education. They want to stifle medical and scientific research that could potentially save millions of lives. They want to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

I don't think these guys are "pushing values" on this show. They're giving religious folk an opportunity to state their side of the case--something pretty much every caller has failed to do convincingly or even coherently (Loch Ness Monster, wtf?).

What annoys me schmawy is not the fact that people dispute the official story. 4 or 5 years ago I was willing to listen to their alternate explanations. But when I started investigating the claims, I realized they were all completely bogus. Take the "WTC falling into its own footprint" claim. I thought, "Hey that's interesting, let's check that out."

Except when I did investigate I found tons of videos up on YouTube clearly showing the building did NOT fall into its footprint and in fact damaged nearby buildings as it crumbled. The more I investigated the conspiracy theory claims, the more I realized they had no evidence at all, just suspicion and conjecture. In fact in most cases they were blatantly ignoring the volumes of counter-evidence and testimony to their claims that already existed.

So now here we are in 2008. The conspiracy theorists have had ample time to come up with something--anything--to support their claims other than conjecture and coincidence. And this is what they come up. The guy in this vid. This is their smoking gun.

That's what annoys me. If they can't back up their claims with some real evidence they just need to shut up. If they want to continue investigating and believing that's fine with me. But until the day comes where they find some credible evidence, they're no better than the callers into this show that keep trying to prove the existence of God:

http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Best-Caller-Ever-on-The-Atheist-Experience

And Swampgirl, Your posts are always thoughtful and contributing, but I want to answer this one part:

So much seeking of validation..needing it.... is NOT believing in anything enough?

Thats exactly right, atheism is NON-belief.

But it is, the way most atheist sees it, a result of critical and skeptical views on ANY claims, not just that of the religious. If you are an "atheist", it is likely that you have taken a look at the claims of the Chrsitians and the claims of the muslims, and/or any belief and said to yourself: "sorry, the evidence is just not good enough"

Anyway, they point that some of us wants to make, is that religious views should have no special free passes, no gaps, no privileged place in our discourse, simply because they are religious claims They should rather be subject to the same kind of criticism that a politician that seeks to lower the taxes, or an engineer that seek building permission, or a scientist that seeks stem cell research funds will meet. We see no reason why people who simply declare their beliefs as "faith" should get special treatment, in fact they should be held accountable, like any view that has impact on the way we live our lives. And since no one else seems to take that view, the people who run "The Atheist Experience", and others try to fill that gap,is way overdue.

>> ^swampgirl:
The "Atheists' Experience"? oh please.
Atheism shouldn't be an "experience" at all, but the absence of "Experiences" I thought. You live, you observe, you learn, you appreciate, you age, you die... the end.
A show?? ... for atheists? Guys like these are as annoying as right wing fundies. Why do they feel the need to evangelize? Cause that's what this looks like to me.
Here are some guys that feel the need to make atheism into some form of lifestyle that needs promotion.... a belief system. The way they are promoting this absence of belief that brings purpose and meaning in their lives....how is this different from what religion is doing for others? ... practically speaking here...
That they care so much to go to these lengths to debunk Christianity says there's some baggage in their pasts... bitter about something? Why the chip on the shoulder? Why showcase some poor fella that may not be bright, but is sincere? You aren't providing a service other than showcasing your over educated, over privileged and yes at times... arrogance.
Enjoy your lack of belief fellas. Celebrate that intellect of yours. BUT Let the other people have their beliefs while you use those big smart brains of yours on something more productive.
Guys, let it go. Go cure cancer, write music, invent the flux capacitor... just enjoy your life before its over.
I'm so gonna get flamed now aren't I?


The problem is that religious people prevent us from curing cancer because religious bullshit blocks legislation that would allow scientific advancement. Activists constantly call for law changes that are incompatible with the Constitution. I could go on and on, but the basic premise is that I would leave them alone if they weren't always trying to force everyone to adhere to their beliefs.

I was a bit defensive for the underdog here because I am a former Christian. I suppose I would call myself agnostic now. Thanks for the polite and sincere replies.

In reply to this comment by shuac:
>> ^swampgirl:
The "Atheists' Experience"? oh please.
Atheism shouldn't be an "experience" at all, but the absence of "Experiences" I thought. You live, you observe, you learn, you appreciate, you age, you die... the end.

We have all the same experiences as reverent people. We live, we observe, we feel awe, we love, we have children. We just don't attribute any of it to an entity in which we do not believe.

A show?? ... for atheists? Guys like these are as annoying as right wing fundies. Why do they feel the need to evangelize? Cause that's what this looks like to me.
Here are some guys that feel the need to make atheism into some form of lifestyle that needs promotion.... a belief system. The way they are promoting this absence of belief that brings purpose and meaning in their lives....how is this different from what religion is doing for others? ... practically speaking here...

You can call it a belief system if you like, but that's not what it is. Atheists do not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. Period. Is this show different than religion prosthelatizing (sp)? Probably not.

That they care so much to go to these lengths to debunk Christianity says there's some baggage in their pasts

Atheists only feel the need to debunk Christianity when a Christian quotes the bible at us. And then it's pretty easy debunking because the bible is not well thought out (IMO). However, by-and-large, we don't go around shoving our views in your face. If you do not wish to hear such things, don't watch the show. For example, I've never seen the 700 Club. Not once.

bitter about something? Why the chip on the shoulder? Why showcase some poor fella that may not be bright, but is sincere?

They cannot control who calls in. And yes, the delight the hosts take in showing this guy up is a little over the top. That wouldn't necessarily be my style. But then, not all reverent people are exactly the same as each other.

You aren't providing a service other than showcasing your over educated, over privileged and yes at times... arrogance.

Well, I think they're providing a great service and will likely continue to do so. They're currently on their 550th show, or there-abouts? Not a bad run.

Enjoy your lack of belief fellas. Celebrate that intellect of yours. BUT Let the other people have their beliefs while you use those big smart brains of yours on something more productive.

I'd be glad to close my mouth forever so long as my country (USA) does not go too far: sanctioning prayer in school, creationism in science, and...oh yeah...war in the name of god. Stopping such activity is fairly important to us.

Guys, let it go. Go cure cancer, write music, invent the flux capacitor... just enjoy your life before its over.

We will.

I'm so gonna get flamed now aren't I?

I don't flame. I'm too old for that shit. But overall, I feel I'm being pretty civil.

Atheists get angry when atheism is categorized as a religion. Understandable. You do see why don't you?

Yes, which is why we don't see it as a religion.

IMO the reason is because so many atheists feel the need to organize and promote it as a belief system.

No, we don't.

So much seeking of validation..needing it.... is NOT believing in anything enough?

Don't confuse atheism with nihilism. The reverent's favorite claim is that "atheists believe in nothing." Uhh, no. We believe in all the things you believe in: just not god. We do not feel we need religion to be moral people.

What a sad world it would be if the ONLY reason people didn't go around killing each other and stealing is out of a fear of god. We're already good. We don't need a book for that.

Why all this attention seeking behavior and needing to be 'right' about it?

That's a good question. Probably because we feel threatened. See above for the thing about prayer, creationism in science, and holy wars.

Their behavior follows a similar pattern of those in organized religions.

I'll agree with you there. It is similar. We're OK with that.

>> ^swampgirl:
The "Atheists' Experience"? oh please.
Atheism shouldn't be an "experience" at all, but the absence of "Experiences" I thought. You live, you observe, you learn, you appreciate, you age, you die... the end.

We have all the same experiences as reverent people. We live, we observe, we feel awe, we love, we have children. We just don't attribute any of it to an entity in which we do not believe.

A show?? ... for atheists? Guys like these are as annoying as right wing fundies. Why do they feel the need to evangelize? Cause that's what this looks like to me.
Here are some guys that feel the need to make atheism into some form of lifestyle that needs promotion.... a belief system. The way they are promoting this absence of belief that brings purpose and meaning in their lives....how is this different from what religion is doing for others? ... practically speaking here...

You can call it a belief system if you like, but that's not what it is. Atheists do not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. Period. Is this show different than religion prosthelatizing (sp)? Probably not.

That they care so much to go to these lengths to debunk Christianity says there's some baggage in their pasts

Atheists only feel the need to debunk Christianity when a Christian quotes the bible at us. And then it's pretty easy debunking because the bible is not well thought out (IMO). However, by-and-large, we don't go around shoving our views in your face. If you do not wish to hear such things, don't watch the show. For example, I've never seen the 700 Club. Not once.

bitter about something? Why the chip on the shoulder? Why showcase some poor fella that may not be bright, but is sincere?

They cannot control who calls in. And yes, the delight the hosts take in showing this guy up is a little over the top. That wouldn't necessarily be my style. But then, not all reverent people are exactly the same as each other.

You aren't providing a service other than showcasing your over educated, over privileged and yes at times... arrogance.

Well, I think they're providing a great service and will likely continue to do so. They're currently on their 550th show, or there-abouts? Not a bad run.

Enjoy your lack of belief fellas. Celebrate that intellect of yours. BUT Let the other people have their beliefs while you use those big smart brains of yours on something more productive.

I'd be glad to close my mouth forever so long as my country (USA) does not go too far: sanctioning prayer in school, creationism in science, and...oh yeah...war in the name of god. Stopping such activity is fairly important to us.

Guys, let it go. Go cure cancer, write music, invent the flux capacitor... just enjoy your life before its over.

We will.

I'm so gonna get flamed now aren't I?

I don't flame. I'm too old for that shit. But overall, I feel I'm being pretty civil.

Atheists get angry when atheism is categorized as a religion. Understandable. You do see why don't you?

Yes, which is why we don't see it as a religion.

IMO the reason is because so many atheists feel the need to organize and promote it as a belief system.

No, we don't.

So much seeking of validation..needing it.... is NOT believing in anything enough?

Don't confuse atheism with nihilism. The reverent's favorite claim is that "atheists believe in nothing." Uhh, no. We believe in all the things you believe in: just not god. We do not feel we need religion to be moral people.

What a sad world it would be if the ONLY reason people didn't go around killing each other and stealing is out of a fear of god. We're already good. We don't need a book for that.

Why all this attention seeking behavior and needing to be 'right' about it?

That's a good question. Probably because we feel threatened. See above for the thing about prayer, creationism in science, and holy wars.

Their behavior follows a similar pattern of those in organized religions.

I'll agree with you there. It is similar. We're OK with that.

The "Atheists' Experience"? oh please.

Atheism shouldn't be an "experience" at all, but the absence of "Experiences" I thought. You live, you observe, you learn, you appreciate, you age, you die... the end.

A show?? ... for atheists? Guys like these are as annoying as right wing fundies. Why do they feel the need to evangelize? Cause that's what this looks like to me.

Here are some guys that feel the need to make atheism into some form of lifestyle that needs promotion.... a belief system. The way they are promoting this absence of belief that brings purpose and meaning in their lives....how is this different from what religion is doing for others? ... practically speaking here...

That they care so much to go to these lengths to debunk Christianity says there's some baggage in their pasts... bitter about something? Why the chip on the shoulder? Why showcase some poor fella that may not be bright, but is sincere? You aren't providing a service other than showcasing your over educated, over privileged and yes at times... arrogance.

Enjoy your lack of belief fellas. Celebrate that intellect of yours. BUT Let the other people have their beliefs while you use those big smart brains of yours on something more productive.

Guys, let it go. Go cure cancer, write music, invent the flux capacitor... just enjoy your life before its over.

I'm so gonna get flamed now aren't I?

>> ^White:
say whatever you want, i'm a perfectly happy and proud catholic.


I think that's great. Really, I do.

And if religion was willing to merely serve as a spiritual refuge, I and most of the atheists I know would be willing to close our mouths.

But that's not what's happening, is it?

The strong religious movement wants state-sanctioned prayer in public schools, they want to inject creationism (an unmeasurable, unprovable thing) in the school science curriculum (which is filled to the brim with measurable, provable things), and wage war in the name of jesus. Religion, by it's nature, wants more believers.

So we'll continue to say what we want so long as religion continues it's push.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'atheist experience, god, proof' to 'atheist experience, god, proof, unicorns, fairy tale, atheism, funny, religion' - edited by lucky760

>> ^White:
well the hosts don't realize the huge hole in their argument:
you can't really compare the two situations. his mother was not "on the brink of death, and then got better." she DIED. they took her off life support and she stopped breathing. then suddenly, BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY,

Is the "not immediately" part the huge hole you speak of? If so -> ????

she came back to life and no one knows why. i defy anyone to find a "perfectly healthy person" who dropped dead.

Jim Fixx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

John Ritter

people don't just die, they die because something was wrong with them or something happened to them. there is always a reason.

I do believe I found the real hole.^^

the point of this man's story is that there is no medical reason that his mother came back. the doctors said she was going to die, and she did. then, out of the blue, she came back.

And that's only different because it's a GOOD turn of events. Good things that happen are because of god but someone like Jim Fixx dropping dead of a massive heart attack or John Ritter dropping dead is a BAD turn of events and therefore, "it just happens."

Yes, Jim Fixx and John Ritter, just like the mother, were obviously not "perfectly healthy." But the fact that you are not willing to see how all these situations are fundamentally the same is the real hole, White.

Don't you find it disturbing that there is the same amount of proof that god exists as fairies? Or unicorns? Or elves? Or zeus? Or shiva? Or thor? Or osiris? Or isis? Or the flying spaghetti monster? Or the celestial teapot? I can keep going...I've got a whole list here.

People should believe in as many true things and disbelieve in as many false things as possible.

Wait, how did he even do that?

>> ^Rugil:
^ I think you commented on the wrong sift, dude.
Here ya go: http://www.videosift.com/video/Volvo-crash-amazing-in-car-camera-mount