how every debate i have had with a libertarian looks like

Hundreds of protesters crammed the streets of Lower Manhattan Monday, clashing with the NYPD as they attempted to march down Wall Street. Kmele Foster, co-host of Fox Business' The Independents, met up with Pulitzer-Prize winning author Chris Hedges for a heated debate on the merits of capitalism.
notarobotsays...

It's true that free markets have enabled innovation over the past two centuries since the adoption of capitalistish models by most of the world.

The issue I see the interviewer struggling with, and Hedges not really getting across to him, is that the free market run amok has led a perversion of capitalism. This perversion, however you wish to describe it (corpratism?/neo-feutilism?) has created ultra-wealthy elite who are able to impose vast influence over society, like princes and kings before the Storming of the Bastille.

Hedges is warning that revolution will may be the only option left if the present shift in power continues on it's present path unchecked. (I do not see such upheaval as possible at the present time---though I don't dispute that the seeds are there. Revolutions are often preceded by disaster or famine.)

The interviewer seemed more interested in making his own points and arguing with Hedges rather than trying to help Hedges to draw out and refine his main point into a digestible thesis.

VoodooVsays...

funny that he invoked Adam Smith. Adam Smith wanted strong regulation of Capitalism. Nothing wrong with Capitalism with regulation.

I'd also say that there is nothing wrong with capitalism when it comes to non-essential commodities. you want the latest iPhone or that other luxury item with the latest bling? yeah, get a higher paying job so you can afford it. Basic internet service, on the other hand, should be a public utility.

people like that always seem to love Ayn Rand too...but Ayn Rand sucked on the gov't teet quite a bit.

VoodooVsays...

I can't remember who said it, but I've always liked this quote:

Capitalism is a great engine for innovation, but it's a shitty way to have a just and fair society. (after googling, it seems lots of people have said something to that effect)

Capitalism is great, but it needs to be controlled.

I will disagree though. Voters have the power to make some huge changes The corporate world may have a huge influence over Gov't, but it's dependent on the populace not giving a damn and looking the other way.

There will come a point where people are pushed to a tipping point, then things will happen. Hopefully in a peaceful fashion. One way or another it will happen, because as Hedges already pointed out. Truly unrestricted capitalism will destroy itself.

The oligarchy is trying to create a modernized system of serfdom and perpetual debt. Give people the illusion of freedom, but they're really not. Every major life decision in the modern world usually involves going into significant debt and spending decades digging yourself out.

Want a good education? Gonna have to go into massive debt. Even if you're successful, it will take a long time to get out.

Want to get married? society says you have to have an expensive ring and go into debt for probably 30 years to get a house for your family. And you wonder why more and more people are flipping the bird to the "traditional family unit"

Want a decent car just so you can get around? Even more debt

Hope you never get divorced, because that's still more debt.

Hope you're lucky enough to not have a major accident or illness either. Yep, more debt.

I know a lot of people are able to successfully navigate these things and still come out ahead, but they're quickly becoming the exception, and not the rule. And it's often a question of luck, not of skill or smarts or being chosen of your preferred deity. blind stupid luck. So those that make it have no cause to look down their nose at those who didn't make it.

There is a reason feudalism system got thrown out. It's just been repackaged to fool people. When enough people realize it, it will be thrown off again.

notarobotsaid:

It's true that free markets have enabled innovation over the past two centuries since the adoption of capitalistish models by most of the world.

The issue I see the interviewer struggling with, and Hedges not really getting across to him, is that the free market run amok has led a perversion of capitalism. This perversion, however you wish to describe it (corpratism?/neo-feutilism?) has created ultra-wealthy elite who are able to impose vast influence over society, like princes and kings before the Storming of the Bastille.

Hedges is warning that revolution will may be the only option left if the present shift in power continues on it's present path unchecked. (I do not see such upheaval as possible at the present time---though I don't dispute that the seeds are there. Revolutions are often preceded by disaster or famine.)

The interviewer seemed more interested in making his own points and arguing with Hedges rather than trying to help Hedges to draw out and refine his main point into a digestible thesis.

bcabssays...

I disliked how Hedges said that capitalism fails to self-regulate.

I think the big intellectual mistake that is made nowadays is to assume that the invisible-hand is a purely market phenomenon. Capitalism's self-regulation operates on a society-wide basis and requires feedback from people, governments, social-institutions (i.e. religious, cultural and academic) in addition to the market. I don't think it is too hard to argue that financial institutions currently hold a disproportionate amount of power relative to other institutions. One could even say that Wall Street has taken capitalism hostage.

However, this point is usually lost on people and forces them into "for" and "against" camps.

ChaosEnginesays...

Completely irrelevant to the topic, but I had to laugh when I heard "if I didn't have to be in prison tonight, I'd be arrested".

On topic... unchecked capitalism is a terrible system, so is unchecked socialism.

There's nothing wrong with private enterprise and innovation, but they should be used for what they're good at, i.e. anything where the primary motivator is profit.

Capitalism by definition is terrible at anything where the primary motive is something other than profit (or at the very least, where profit shouldn't be the primary motivator) such as healthcare, prisons, etc.

Ultimately the question is what do we want out of life as a society? I'd argue that's quality of life. We should the levers of capitialism and socialism to achieve that. Right now, we're way too capitalist.

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