The cop doing the talking was so courteous and blithe throughout the whole thing, it was almost weird. Good professionalism.

Without knowing what triggered the first taze, view was blocked, I can't say if it was justified or not. Might have been. I don't think the follow up ones were needed, once he was down he was saying ok and trying to cooperate. They didn't give him time to stop twitching from the first one and get control of his limbs before hitting him again.

To defend against or control a violent suspect I've got no problem with a taze, but you don't use a potentially lethal technology to send messages or just because you're pissed and tasers have been connected with too many deaths for casual use. To a healthy person they might be lower risk but you don't know the medical conditions or background of your victim in street use.

There's plenty of literature from manufacturers claiming it's safe and they might even be right for some models and when used properly and functioning properly, but we've also got indications such as these to consider.

In a separate finding, the Army also concluded last year that Tasers could cause ventricular fibrillation, the irregular heart rhythm characteristic of a heart attack. A memorandum from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland, where the Army develops, tests and evaluates weapons, said, "Seizures and ventricular fibrillation can be induced by the electric current."
At issue was whether soldiers should be shocked with the stun guns during training exercises, as Taser recommends.

http://charlydmiller.com/LIB07/2006Feb13TaserMorePowerfulThanClaimed.pdf

It has since been found at Aberdeen to be ok for use in Iraq and in *combat conditions*. Article also mentions a study published in the Journal of the National Academy of Forensic Engineers which found wide variation from the stated power of the tasers. Any one of the questions on its own might be discounted but there are too many questions and too many sources for them to take the concern lightly. It's a tool to stop a dangerous suspect, if a potentially lethal technology is used to simply force compliance I'd see that as assault and the officer should be the one going to jail.

Potentially lethal? Maybe if you're 75 and have a pacemaker.

The first tase was warranted because he was refusing to comply with a law enforcement official's instructions and resisting arrest. Granted, that second one was probably unnecessary, but they probably did it to drive the point home: Do what you're fucking told. Also, with a guy that weighs 340 lbs, and looks to be all muscle, they didn't want to take any chances with that guy coming up and swinging at them as soon as the taser's cycle ended.
Like the guy said, as soon as the 3/5 second burst is done, you have complete control of your muscles again.

I've been hit with that exact same model, so I know.

No, potentially lethal if you're anyone of any age with a heart condition diagnosed or not, young people have them too. Just not as often. If they are on drugs that increase blood pressure and heart rate, or others. Conclusions such as "Army also concluded last year that Tasers could cause ventricular fibrillation, the irregular heart rhythm characteristic of a heart attack" don't come out of Aberdeen proving ground because they think their troops are 75 year olds with pacemakers. They were worried about an avoidable accident with a troop.

I hadn't planned to post here again for a while and I won't after I deal with this, but I grew up in the DC area in the 70's. Spent four and a half years locked up before I was 15 and had a few years on the streets after that then years later worked with the cops a bit on system reform, am still in occasional contact with them and was within recent weeks. I'm fairly familiar with the subjects involved and from both sides of the issues, including dealing with big guys

Had a 6 foot 6 and a half monster pissed at me once. Someone that big simply can't bend too far back as easily as a smaller person, musclebound, that's why with the big guys you sometimes see two handcuffs hooked together to make the span behind them. The cops should have known that as well as I do and I'd expect they did. You nailed their only reason for the second hit with the comment "they probably did it to drive the point home: Do what you're fucking told".

That's a misuse of a potentially lethal technology, not just to old and small people but to anyone who might suffer a heart problem. And people wonder why it's a growing concern that too many cops have an attitude? Their authority was to enforce the law, not to send messages. If we use more force than needed we can be charged even when it's in self defense, they shouldn't be above the law to abuse just to send messages either.

"Their authority was to enforce the law, not to send messages. "
You make a good pint there, drattus.
Well, besides that, what do you think of the other probable reason? About not taking the chance Mr. Clean striking them?

I don't agree with sending messages either.
I'm off to police academy soon, and I don't want to be viewed as an asshole just because other cops are. I just think that sometimes, a cop's actions are justified.

Thank you, I expected an argument and it's good to have a conversation instead. Given that I couldn't see the hands and what was going on for the initial taze I won't try to second guess that one. If they did it out of frustration we're back to sending messages but maybe he gripped one of the cops hands or something. I didn't see a big movement but he might have resisted in some way other than passive. Might have been needed.

If needed taser is a better option than a gun but a swarm also works if the squad is trained and is used on max security prison inmates who won't cooperate so should work here. Don't give them anything to attack and bury them under body weight and one or two people a limb, with armor and shields if you've got them but there were a lot of cars in the background so that would have been another option even without it. Not my first choice though, he was a big guy

I'm not against cops, used to be but the guys at LEAP do a lot of good work so I try to find more like them these days. It's hard to feel like I used to about them in a generic sense but most of the same issues still bother me. Just more focused these days, it's the excess rather than the use of force itself. I wish you luck and hope you don't get jaded at the job. Good ones are needed.

Thanks much, drattus.

Oh, and, sometimes a conversational argument is fun!

And I see that you finally gave your vote

Good thread, props to both of you.

just by watching the video you can't really say with any clarity whether or not the 2nd one was justified. for instance, I would have little doubt that its been taught as procedure for them to try all other attempts at cooperation (which he most certainly did) then if they continue, tazer once for 3/5 wait briefly and hit them again to prevent any retaliation.

granted, when your messing with electricity it *could* be potentially fatal, but then anything can be in the improper amounts. the average healthy normal person can and will take a taz like that just fine and no harm done other than the initial pain of it. to say that its "potentially fatal" is like saying to playfully push someone in a pool is potentially fatal. its certainly possible they might be allergic to the chlorine, or cant swim and everyone else is perhaps drunk so doesn't notice, or they go in the shallow end and knock out on the pool floor again with nobody noticing, or any number of other possibilities. the point being, over 90% of the time it won't be fatal unless abnormal circumstances are involved.

personally id prefer the tazer to be used in this fasion, than for law enforcment to have to revert to either holding a gun on them (far more potential for leathality) or a billy club, (again far more dangerous), or pepper spray which some folks could again point at as being "dangerous" but more likely with someone that size would anger them more than subdue them. against someone that size and that uncooperative, i doubt any captain would find them at fault.

also a small note about the fact big guys like that need 2 cuffs, the did in fact use 2 sets of cuffs on the guy you can see the linkage between the 2 at 9 seconds before it ends.

The average normal person probably can take it with little risk. You've no idea what condition the person you're dealing with is in or what drugs or medications they might be on, they may not be average. It's not that it shouldn't be used at all but that it shouldn't be used lightly or to send messages. A person might be fine under one form of stress but multiples together can kill them in some cases, that rather than a taze alone I'd think, combinations of stresses, is responsible for most real cases. Some are just excuses too I'd guess.

Potentially fatal was qualified just fine. Aberdeen decided they didn't need to be zapping troops just to train them, wasn't worth the risk, but I also noted that in a later report they found it fine for use in Iraq. That fits with what I said just fine. It's not a toy, it's a tool. Use it appropriately and I'm not complaining.

If they are being taught to double zap as procedure they shouldn't be. From the video he was down with palms wide open and saying ok on the first, rolling over as ordered and with his arms just getting behind him when hit with the second one. Not resisting and a guy that size could have. A third was ordered though I didn't hear it delivered when his arms were already twisted up behind his back because he didn't straighten which he probably couldn't have done given the angles and the restrictions of someone that musclebound. The comment wasn't intended to mean that they didn't use two cuffs in the end but that he couldn't bend as well as some might there and they were getting trigger happy. Use it when needed and I've no problem with it but not out of habit, practice, or to send messages.

my heart is actually a little messed up (one of the valves is just sloppy), enough that I would be pretty nervous to take a taser to the chest or back.


he was resisting the officers calls to put his hands behind his back, and then physically resisting their pulling of his arms behind his back... so he got tasered.

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