Ahh, I knew much of it before, but yes that explains how the whole thing is derived from "owning your life", and several sub-questions.

However, it also confirms my suspicion that the libertarian philosophy is anti-democratic and anti-hierarchy w/regard to decision-making.

I don't see how a Libertarian justifies voting (even for Libertarians), because it's an attempt to exercise control over others, by forcing them to accept a leader not of their own choosing -- unless the vote is unanimous.

I would expect all Libertarians to go into fits over the topic of pollution and who's rights get protected; those who are affected by the pollution, or the rights of the polluter to use his property as he pleases?

Who owns the air?

I do.

But seriously, I tried sifting this a long time ago and am glad it's getting another chance, it deserves it - it's really important.

>> ^NetRunner:
Ahh, I knew much of it before, but yes that explains how the whole thing is derived from "owning your life", and several sub-questions.
However, it also confirms my suspicion that the libertarian philosophy is anti-democratic and anti-hierarchy w/regard to decision-making.
I don't see how a Libertarian justifies voting (even for Libertarians), because it's an attempt to exercise control over others, by forcing them to accept a leader not of their own choosing -- unless the vote is unanimous.
I would expect all Libertarians to go into fits over the topic of pollution and who's rights get protected; those who are affected by the pollution, or the rights of the polluter to use his property as he pleases?
Who owns the air?


1. By living in a representative republic, i feel that you are subject to the system. If one doesn't like it, they are free to move to a place where their political interests are better met.
2. I feel that in the case of pollution, the polluter should be limited. The best metaphor i can imagine is loud music. While the person who is playing the music is pursuing their own happiness, since it inhibits that of others, it would be wrong.
p.s. not trying to flame.
p.p.s. SOMEONE THROW ME A BONE!!! Don't let this die again! This needs to be brought up front, all for the low low price of one star point!(at least that's my understanding)

Moving this video to rgroom1's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

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Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued - promote requested by NetRunner.

The only problem I have with Libertarianism is that they generally discount the "we" factor of living in a civilized society.

I'm basically a Green at heart, and the Libertarians and Greens agree on many issues, but we always part ways when it comes to doing something that is for the greater good of the community, or the environment

Basically, the Libertarians believe the Government is the root of the problem, and it's not. Bad government is the root of the problem.

Clarification: Blankfistian Libertarianism = Anarchy

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
Libertarianism = Anarchy


BZZZT!!! wrong!

I hate how people classify an entire group of people with an extremist viewpoint. There are varying types of Libertarians just as there are varying types of Democrats. I for one am a Centrist Libertarian. But hey.. does it matter.. some ppl classify me as being anti-govt. when in reality I'm not.

I agree that good govt. is the issue. not that the existience of govt in general is the problem. Many libertarians share the viewpoint of our founding fathers which actually formed the foundation of our govt. If they were anti govt. then we wouldn't have the Constitution, the 3 main branches of our govt., etc. C'mon don't be so f'ing ignorant.

^What's the difference cp?

read above.. was editing it while you typed that.

I dispise anarchy.. nothing good comes from complete anarchy unless it's used as a temporary means to overthrow a corrupt government (and even this is not true anarchy because it would take organization)... It's really just a label that is misued often. Anarchy is NOT a form of government!!!!

Let me put it this way...War is anarchy.. perpetual war is insane... temporary war or anarchy can be used to fight off other anarchous invasions or corrupt governments but would be detrimental to the human race if it were not followed by an organized establishment of proper and just government. (i.e. : The revolutionary war).

To say that Libertarianism is anarchy is like saying Democrats are Socialists or all Republicans are NeoCons. While maybe true for a percentage of the group, it's not very accurate now is it? Actually it's quite ignorant.

>> ^rougy:

Basically, the Libertarians believe the Government is the root of the problem, and it's not. Bad government is the root of the problem.


NO.. not all libertarians believe this. Do all Democrats believe that complete socialism is good? Do you see the reasoning you're using?

One of my biggest problems with Libertarianism is that it is still in the hypothesis phase. It is a young, untried, untested, political philosophy that is based on faith, hype and self-righteous slogans.

Libertarianism has never run a government (unless I were to include the dark ages or failed states like Darfur - which suffered governmental collapse - but I'd assume you are not attracted to their brand of 'liberty') and the American Libertarian party is only one that has ever existed. There is no research or evidence to suggest that Libertarian government would be a good idea at all, let alone subjecting our entire country to it.

Understandable from this aspect I agree. This is why I like combining a centrist view. It shares the human rights and civil liberty philosophy of both the right and left. It requires regulation of corporations from the left and the fiscal conservativeness of the centrist right (btw NeoCons are not conservative).

A good balance of governmental policy is truly needed here. That's unity and progress at its finest.

DFT, Libertarian embodies exactly the tried principles of the framers. It is not a hypothesis. Self-actualized, self-reliant humans with natural rights to life and liberty no government can give them because they are natural. Thus, the government doesn't own you. These are the principles of the founding fathers. Public school systems, socialized health care and large government oversight are not.

Principles of the founding fathers while their slaves cooked and cleaned?

Ok, so is war a mass murder committed by empowered governments?

How are you or your support structure supposed to defend themselves from those who would take try to take life, liberty and property from you without taking their life, liberty or property in return to some degree. Surely their disregard for others rights does not mean we can disregard theirs?

I'm not really criticizing this, I just don't know much about any of this in any detail.

It seems like one of those philosophies that "could" work if only we got everybody on the same page. I suppose the question is really whether you can get everybody off the local summit to find higher mesas with greener grass.

You didn't really address my comment blankfist, you are just hiding behind the flag. Show me a successful example of libertarian government.

>> ^Constitutional_Patriot:
NO.. not all libertarians believe this. Do all Democrats believe that complete socialism is good? Do you see the reasoning you're using?


Didn't mean to touch a nerve, CP, but that's just based on my experience with Libertarians.

By in large, they tend not to believe in "we."

They believe in "me" and that's usually always been where I've parted ways with them.

Like I said, and maybe you've noticed this too, the Greens and the Libertarians are in agreement on a large number of issues until we start talking about the collective good, and then the commonality vanishes.

>> ^blankfist:
DFT, Libertarian embodies exactly the tried principles of the framers. It is not a hypothesis. Self-actualized, self-reliant humans with natural rights to life and liberty no government can give them because they are natural. Thus, the government doesn't own you. These are the principles of the founding fathers. Public school systems, socialized health care and large government oversight are not.


I read this not too long ago: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/16/1509/23149

What're your thoughts on that explanation of why things are, and should be, different today?

(Yes, I realize it's a link to the Great Orange Devil, you'll survive)

Sorry roughy.. that's not the libertarianism I know... nor does it sound like the libertarians I know... also I know of several libertarians that voted green party (myself included).

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Discarding this post - discard requested by original submitter rgroom1.

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Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Sunday, September 7th, 2008 10:36am PDT - promote requested by Constitutional_Patriot.