So much for Obama's promised transparency in government.

^Wait, what?

Transparency is openness and accountability. First of all, how is disclosing to the public that such pictures exist and what they show, etc. etc. not 'open' on its own? Secondly, since we're told the cases of detainee abuse have already been investigated and closed, then personally, I can only see how and why media outlets worldwide would like to get their hands on them (who doesn't like a good outrage?), but I fail to see the benefit for the US' public in this.

So I don't see at all why you're implying this means there is no transparency in Obama's administration. Also, the comparison of statements was completely unwarranted and unnecessary - the difference is that Bush & Co. wanted to hide that such abuse had even happened, while Obama probably just doesn't want a backlash at him for what Cheney sanctioned. Irony here of course, is that now there's backlash from the other side, of course

who the hell wants to see these photos anyway? fucking right they shouldn't be released. how are you meant to move forward if this kind of crap's being waved in front of everyone's faces for no good reason.

I want to see the photos released, because pictures persuade much, much better than words. And if they were released, there would be a good chance that the responsible people would be properly punished.

"Man tortured" does very little

Showing a guy being water boarded, does a lot.

I want the goddamn responsible people to squirm and the people that don't believe it to see the extent of what they supported.

Inciting rage and retaliation is not a good strategy. Our troops have enough shit to deal with.

>> ^burdturgler:
Inciting rage and retaliation is not a good strategy. Our troops have enough shit to deal with.


Exactly. We don't want to add accountability and responsibility to what they are already having to deal with.

I'm all for selective accountability and responsibility. I get to choose only the things that I want to be accountable/responsible for. I get to ignore the mistakes I've made in the past if the consequences would be too harsh or I just don't want people to know that I stooped to that level.

Amen for selective accountability and responsibility!


(Yes, I know that this would affect more than the the people who did the actual torture. But how many people indirectly support this while knowing it was going on, knowing it was wrong, and kept silent? Sometimes you win or lose as a team.)

>> ^curiousity:
Exactly. We don't want to add accountability and responsibility to what they are already having to deal with.


I think you're missing the point entirely.

These atrocities are already well known in Iraq.

The fact that we've committed them and conspire to hide them, therein lies the rage.

Because this is what it amounts to: we're treating the Iraqi's as if they aren't human.

Release the photos, because then they will serve as evidence, and we can (should) begin the process of seeking justice and restoring America's standing in the eyes of the world.

I'm on the fence about this one. I see the value in not releasing them, especially since we're about to send tens of thousands of military, as well as relief workers and civilians into Afghanistan. For these images to damage whatever good will we could create with that country, could potentially blow up in our faces.

On the other side, is the investigation and/or prosecution of those who ordered and carried out these war crimes, and perhaps shining a spotlight on them could put that scenario into high gear.

But, we've also got the battle between Cheney, CIA, and the Dem leadership that is brewing right now, and if I know Pelosi, she's going ape shit right now and will probably be the driving force behind a real (read: non dog&pony show) criminal investigation.

If we can get to an investigation without releasing these specific photos to the public, I think that's a good thing. Even during an investigation or trial, they can still be kept from the media, but shown to those who need to see them.

I highly doubt anyone who is currently pro-torture, will see these photos and reverse their opinions.


But going so far as to equate Obama with Bush is nonsense. Bush hid them because he's guilty. Obama wants to keep them from being published so it doesn't blow up in the faces of the military and civilian forces about to enter Afghanistan.

Am amazed by the comments here.

What if there was government suppressed the original Abu Ghraib photos?

What if what Bush doing this and not Obama?

Do you condone then the CIA destrcution of the torture videotapes as well? I mean that could inflame anti-Amereican sentiment.

What kind of precedent does this set? Any time Americans do something wrong and its damaging to a certain set of people they should be allowed to suppress it?

I wanted these photos to be released so the evidence on prosecuting the people responsible for these policies would increase. It sounds like you are all buying the Fox spin about this being leveled at those carrying out the orders and not those who put these orders in place.

You should all read this as Greenwald outlines it very well http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/13/photos/index.html

Ultimately, in the eyes of the world, this will be viewed as a suppression of evidence.

I wasn't eloquent/elaborate enough before.

I think ultimately it's the higher-ups like Cheney and his clique that ought to be prosecuted for war crimes they commited (this included). However, these cases aren't aimed at them unfortunately and the skeptic in me says that would probably never happen anyway. So that leaves little to no point in pursuing this topic.

Also, I don't buy the "releasing the photos will hurt our troops"-argument one bit. Like I said, I think that's not the real reason behind this decision. Furthermore, I gather they are already being used as evidence in these trials, it's just that they're not released to the public, isn't it?

>> ^Farhad2000:
Am amazed by the comments here.
What if there was government suppressed the original Abu Ghraib photos?


They tried to, and failed.
---


What if what Bush doing this and not Obama?

Bush is a war-mongering torture fetishest. Obama is not. There's definitely an infinite difference. Bush tried to keep everything secret, and failed. Obama is acknowledging what's in these photos, and taking a different approach than you or I or Glenn Greenwald would take.

But the fact of the matter is, this is FOIA stuff, and at a certain point, Obama doesn't control their release. It's entirely possible that Obama is specifically taking this stance now, all the while knowing they will be released, but he comes out in the end as not the America-hater that would so easily be slapped on him.
---


Do you condone then the CIA destrcution of the torture videotapes as well?

Of course not and I have no idea why you'd equate the two. Obama isn't destroying these photographs, Bush destroyed the tapes.
---


What kind of precedent does this set? Any time Americans do something wrong and its damaging to a certain set of people they should be allowed to suppress it?


I think you're blowing out of proportion what I and others here have stated. I'm not personally seeking the concealment of them. I'm trying to take Obama at face value, and figure out the issue, on both sides.
---


I wanted these photos to be released so the evidence on prosecuting the people responsible for these policies would increase.

You don't need to release photographic evidence to the public and media at large in order to prosecute. Even Glen Greenwald understands that.
---

It sounds like you are all buying the Fox spin about this being leveled at those carrying out the orders and not those who put these orders in place.


OK so, saying "I'm on the fence about this issue" and then trying to have a conversation about it is equal to "buying the Fox spin"??? WTF?

That's pretty out there dude.

>> ^rougy:
>> ^curiousity:
Exactly. We don't want to add accountability and responsibility to what they are already having to deal with.

I think you're missing the point entirely.
These atrocities are already well known in Iraq.
The fact that we've committed them and conspire to hide them, therein lies the rage.
Because this is what it amounts to: we're treating the Iraqi's as if they aren't human.
Release the photos, because then they will serve as evidence, and we can (should) begin the process of seeking justice and restoring America's standing in the eyes of the world.


You really didn't catch the sarcasm, did you?

Of course these photos should be released. How else can these acts be owned up to, people held accountable, make sure this doesn't happen again to *hold the high moral ground*, and show the world that the US believes in justice that includes its own people?

>> ^curiousity:
You really didn't catch the sarcasm, did you?

No, sorry, I didn't.

Thanks for clarifying.

*dead

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