Fun to watch, but when the dude in the white shirt (Kaj Larsen) says that the proliferation small arms creates instability in countries it really boils my blood. That is totally false, it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer (with the exception of violent militia ruled countries such as Somalia). He's making a senseless comparison between countries in totally different situations.

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They're in an area where no government exists. And the areas of Somalia where the government is the main controlling faction, it's still just a faction. I'm all for people to own their own guns. But you've got an uncontrolled area selling rpgs and automatic weapons to anyone with money. That kind of activity destabalizes their government and the region.>> ^QuadraPixel:

Fun to watch, but when the dude in the white shirt (Kaj Larsen) says that the proliferation small arms creates instability in countries it really boils my blood. That is totally false, it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer (with the exception of violent militia ruled countries such as Somalia). He's making a senseless comparison between countries in totally different situations.

I find it as hilarious as the Somalis did when the Americans are freaking out, ducking, hiding and making a scene when a man points an RPG launcher at them. It's one thing to not want a gun pointed at you, it's another when you are afraid of an empty tube.

>> ^QuadraPixel:

it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer (with the exception of violent militia ruled countries such as Somalia).


You mean like the not-so-safe United States...?

But seriously though, I have no idea what the effects are of a lot of small arms in a society. Of course it makes it easier to kill if it is easy to get a gun, but to what extent? I don't know.

Anyone who knows of some decent scientific studies that look at the correlation between number of small arms and safety/violence in an area (after controlling for important confounding variables of course)?

Wonder where they got those guns?

Hmmmm.....

Some Libertarian, no doubt.

"Just making a buck, yessir, can't blame me for that."

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>> ^QuadraPixel:
[...] it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer [...]


Now please let me have a valid source for that hilarious US right wing, NRA propagandist statement. And be warned, i'll slap you with figures of gun realted homicides in different countries in return. And you do know which country is #1 don't you? Yeah you guessed it, U! S! A! U! S! A!

;-)

If not guns, they would use knives, if not knives they would use sticks. History tells us we've been killing each other since beginning of recorded history.

Lets not pretend that getting rid of guns will somehow create a utopian society where killing stops. It's wrong and mis-leading argument. You're just scapegoating the gun as ills of human society.

In a society such as Somalia, Afghanistan and many other 3rd world countries, guns aren't the problems. It's the people.

So the argument "It's not the gun that kill people, its people who kill people." is correct.

>> ^conan:

Now please let me have a valid source for that hilarious US right wing, NRA propagandist statement. And be warned, i'll slap you with figures of gun realted homicides in different countries in return. And you do know which country is #1 don't you? Yeah you guessed it, U! S! A! U! S! A!
;-)
<div><div style="margin: 10px; overflow: auto; width: 80%; float: left; position: relative;" class="convoPiece"> QuadraPixel said:<img style="margin: 4px 10px 10px; float: left; width: 40px;" src="http://static1.videosift.com/avatars/q/QuadraPixel-s.jpg" onerror="ph(this)"><div style="position: absolute; margin-left: 52px; padding-top: 1px; font-size: 10px;" class="commentarrow">◄</div><div style="padding: 8px; margin-left: 60px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 30px;" class="nestedComment box">[...] it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer [...]
</div></div></div>
allow me to join you in that NRA slapping.

>> ^conan:

>> ^QuadraPixel:
[...] it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer [...]

Now please let me have a valid source for that hilarious US right wing, NRA propagandist statement. And be warned, i'll slap you with figures of gun realted homicides in different countries in return. And you do know which country is #1 don't you? Yeah you guessed it, U! S! A! U! S! A!
;-)


"U.S. crime trends have been better than those in countries with restrictive firearms laws. Since 1991, with what HCI calls "weak gun laws" (Sarah Brady, "Our Country`s Claim to Shame," 5/5/97), the number of privately owned firearms has risen by perhaps 50 million. Americans bought 37 million new firearms in the 1993-1999 time frame alone. (BATF, Crime Gun Trace Reports, 1999, National Report, 11/00.) Meanwhile, America`s violent crime rate has decreased every year and is now at a 23- year low (FBI). In addition to Japan, other restrictive countries have experienced increases in crime."

Trends are not all the same for every country, but it's basically leading to "less guns = more murders" because in countries/states that restrict firearms ownership only the criminals have guns. BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS!
Keep in mind, I'm talking about 1st world countries Conan. What country do you live in? I would love to see your facts. I live in a state in the USA that allows for concealed AND open carry of unloaded firearms, and I fell very safe because of it. There are 4 guns in my house.

I think you maybe taking a group of stats that correlate and are presenting them as cause and effect. The best statistical predictor over time of crime reduction is reducing child poverty. Anyway that argument of dissencetive that if everybody is armed there be less crime is bullshit.>> ^QuadraPixel:

>> ^conan:
>> ^QuadraPixel:
[...] it is a fact that countries that allow their citizens to own firearms are safer [...]

Now please let me have a valid source for that hilarious US right wing, NRA propagandist statement. And be warned, i'll slap you with figures of gun realted homicides in different countries in return. And you do know which country is #1 don't you? Yeah you guessed it, U! S! A! U! S! A!
;-)

"U.S. crime trends have been better than those in countries with restrictive firearms laws. Since 1991, with what HCI calls "weak gun laws" (Sarah Brady, "Our Country`s Claim to Shame," 5/5/97), the number of privately owned firearms has risen by perhaps 50 million. Americans bought 37 million new firearms in the 1993-1999 time frame alone. (BATF, Crime Gun Trace Reports, 1999, National Report, 11/00.) Meanwhile, America`s violent crime rate has decreased every year and is now at a 23- year low (FBI). In addition to Japan, other restrictive countries have experienced increases in crime."
Trends are not all the same for every country, but it's basically leading to "less guns = more murders" because in countries/states that restrict firearms ownership only the criminals have guns. BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS!
Keep in mind, I'm talking about 1st world countries Conan. What country do you live in? I live in a state in the USA that allows for concealed AND open carry of unloaded firearms, and I fell very safe because of it. There are 4 guns in my house.

gun related homicides in total / per 100.000
(small arms report 2004, most reliable source i know of)

USA 10,310 / 3.45
Canada 170 / 0.54
Germany 155 / 0.19

As you might have guessed i'm living in Germany. Possession and even more so carrying is highly restricted. Although there still are around 20-30 mio "civilian" guns over here (Canada: 7 mio, US: 250 mio). Mostly in possession of traditional shooting associations (gun clubs or however you might call them). No carrying in assembled state, must be kept in a safe at home, ammunition must be kept away from gun in a seperate safe etc.

Because of those restrictions chances that you'll ever encounter a gun-armed criminal on german streets trying to mug you or whatever are EXTREMLY low. Don't get me wrong, this isn't heaven. You still might get mugged ;-) But you most probably won't get shot. As long as you're not a high caliber criminal chances are that you never even see a gun "on the street" in Germany (except cops etc.). That's because of those restrictions. And they do influence the black market because of sentences [correct word? fines?] being draconic, especially for certain types of guns (everything fully automatic, assault rifles, machine guns etc) which are called "Kriegswaffen", i.e. 'war guns'. There is no legal way to possess them anyway and if found with you you'll never see the sunlight again ;-), even more so if you're trying to sell.

I don't feel the need to have a gun.


>> ^QuadraPixel:

[...] because in countries/states that restrict firearms ownership only the criminals have guns. BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS!
Keep in mind, I'm talking about 1st world countries Conan. What country do you live in? [...]

I think they're wrong to say that the proliferation of small arms alone destabilizes a country. I think knowing that you don't have to fear that some sort of police or military with vastly better guns will come looking for you if you shoot people with your own guns is what destabilizes a region.

Proliferation of small arms doesn't help a weak government get stronger, that's for sure.

If proliferation of weapons makes it easy enough for non-government entities to be able to stand toe to toe with or defeat the government's military, the government isn't really the government anymore.

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Good thing they got out of there with their lives! Did you see all those people swarming them and there were all those guns around! You know guns turn honest people into killing zombies when you put them together in the same space. Phew! Close call.

I'd guess that it's more: A weak government, proliferation of arms comparable to the government's, and the willingness and desperation of the people to use them to take what they want destabilize a country.

So: The US doesn't have violent crime because there are guns. The US has violent crime because the population of poor, disenfranchised people that think they have no other option is large. More shootings happen because these people (criminals) have access to guns. More homicides occur because a gunshot's more damaging than a stab wound (and gives more of a sense of invincibility, probably, meaning they're more willing to take the risks that lead to the situations in which they have to use them).

Of course there are also crimes of passion and psychos--and these will also likely be more fatal with firearms than without (but not necessarily--see recent string of Chinese knife-wielding maniacs). But what is the ratio of burglaries/other crimes-gone-wrong to man-kills-man-in-bed-with-his-wife or man-goes-on-sniping-spree or man-hacks-apart-school-children? Dunno, but I'd guess the first is probably the larger portion by a huge amount.

Any discussion of "Guns do X" is definitely oversimplifying the situation. You can't compare the US to Germany to Canada to Somalia purely on gun ownership, because the cultures and social security nets (and any number of other things) are different as well--ranging from "pretty cushy" to "non-existent."

You know, a fresh coat of paint, better looking wood stalls, and some germanic ancestory sellers there, and I'd thought it was a Texas gun show. Not much of a difference between the seller's and those I've seen at some gun shows. And the prices aren't to off either...

Seriously, if your going to make an arguement for or against, showing stastics that heavily favor your arguement will never win over the other side.

If firearms did deter crime, why is crime still taking place in those areas? Last I checked, a firearm can't protect you from identity theft, nor a chemical spill. They do not protect you from guys on Wall Street, selling you a derviatives future contract that will ulimately fail, cus they engineered it to fail (i.e. Goldman Sachs). Or your business of shrimp, cus some group of idiots short-cutted design plans that spills 18K of oil barrels/day.

Yes, a firearm would protect me, when some mugger attacks to. So would my man-eating dog, platoon of USMC's, or Ashbringer (WoW sword). So to, to being observant of the enviroment and hence, not walking in to an ambush in the first place!

*backup please :<

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