>> ^rottenseed:
>> ^CaptainPlanet420:
You must by default be pro-abortion to be pro-choise. Only you kids on here would argue otherwise.
Don't kill the environment, noooooo, and don't kill that poor kitty, nooooo, but let's suck little Johnny's brains out thru a tube, while still in the womb. I think in high skool they called ya'll "posers." hahahahaha, too easy

It's "choice" and "poseur" maybe you should put down the bong for a second and pick up a dictionary. Furthermore, there's plenty of people that should have been aborted for the sake of the environment, kitties and other people. It's just as ok to abort a baby as it is to eat meat products. If you don't believe in eating meat and that all living creatures are equal and you don't kill bugs then you're probably not getting laid because you're too busy cuddling your platonic female friend and watching "The Notebook" to ever get busy and be in the situation where you had to make a decision.


Chill out, son, correcting someone's spelling is pointless, especially when you proceed to make the world's trendiest uneducated grammar mistake. And I've never seen the Notebook, so you'll have to enlighten me.

Back on topic, I expect to see more downvotes on LittleRed's opening comment. But wait, she's a woman, and everything she said was right. Ah, the burn...Man up and downvote it, c'mon. bwahahahaha

>> ^HollywoodBob:
I have a solution, outlaw abortions, make vasectomies mandatory, for all males over 12.
No more unwanted pregnancies. Problem solved. Try to dispute it.


isn't outlawing abortions redundant at that point?

>> ^nadabu:dgandhi, sorry, but nothing you can say will convince me to put animals on the same level as humans.

ditto on 46 chromosome parasites my friend.

>> ^nadabu:
dgandhi, sorry, but nothing you can say will convince me to put animals on the same level as humans.

Why do you feel that way? Humans are animals, after all. It's just that we've evolved the ability to be completely full of ourselves and think we're really special.

>> ^nadabu:
I put the start of human rights at the start of brain waves, about 40 to 43 days after conception.

I think you are mis-informed, the medical data suggests that brain waves don't start until about week 20 of gestation, and are not even constant at that point, more like test-runs then a functioning brain. I'm fine with drawing a hard line there in cases which do not imperil the mother.

I'm a vegan with a vasectomy, so I could spend all day screaming "murderer" at people who breed/eat meat/have pets/wear leather, but it's a very pointless stance to take. I don't agree with what most people do, but practically speaking if some living thing can't stand up for itself, no amount of whining on my part is going to get most people to acknowledge their "moral" responsibility to do something which they do not feel is in their interest.

So if we are going to play "it's murder" poker, I see your 20 week fetuses, and I raise you running shoes and hamburgers.

>> ^nadabu:

First off, that was a wonderful comment, and that's why I always hate the whole abortion debate, because I empathize with the pro-life argument.

I think calling it murder is associating it with the wrong crime. I think it's more like partial suicide, since the baby can't survive without the mother, and I don't think anyone has premeditated the malicious killing of their own child when they're having an abortion.

Attempting suicide is illegal, but it doesn't seem to have stopped people from doing it.

The pro-choice argument isn't about diminishing the life of the baby, it's about trying to keep these partial suicides from turning into full-on suicide, because banning abortions won't stop them from happening, but it will stop them from being done in a fashion that puts the mother at risk.

The other half of the argument, and the half that's gone neglected much of the time is that we do want to reduce the number of abortions, primarily by reducing unwanted pregnancies through sex education, and access to contraceptives.

That said, I always find myself wavering about this topic when it really gets discussed, and I'd really like to find a compromise on it that a) ensures it's rare b) ensures the safety of the mother c) isn't based on religious dogma.

The sci-fi fan in me says the whole thing would become moot if we had a way to transfer the fetus to an artificial womb. That way the former-mother would have the baby gone right away, but it could still be carried to term, and adopted.

Maybe the answer is to pour money into that, I don't know.

Since I can't resist the political angles, I've got to point out that Bob Barr's ex-wife says he consented to her having an abortion while they were still married (and Larry Flynt of all people presented evidence that supported the claim). Also, Bob Barr voted for the Patriot act just a few short years ago when he was a hardline Republican.

If you want Obama to win...vote for him!

Uhh, I blazed through the thread to make my off-the-cuff remark, that I missed this:

>> ^LittleRed:
>> ^BillOreilly:
If it was such a "tough" decision to have an abortion, the woman wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place to force her to make said decision. It seems that keeping their pants on is the real decision women have to make, eh?

Yes and no. Of course girls have to be responsible for their actions, just like the rest of us, and not see abortion as a trivial matter. You should not, however, punish those, who might actually want and/or need an abortion. If there are changes in personal life, a spousal death or whatever, then, within a reasonable limit, people should be able to abort their pregnancy. Guys do have a role to play too, however little..

The crux of the debate comes in littlered's response below:

I agree. I am not speaking for anyone but myself when I say I am pro-life. I believe life starts at conception. Once the cells start dividing, life is being formed. I have a friend who got pregnant while using the NuvaRing and condoms. There is no guarantee that birth control will work.

"Life begins at conception". I think this is wrong and it is what plagues the abortion issue. Sam Harris sums it up better than I can here.

As for women that don't get abortions casually, I have another friend who was 19, no longer in school, and therefore unable to be covered by her mother's insurance. She was all out of b/c pills and refused to use condoms. She lived with her boyfriend and was a self-proclaimed sex addict. She made it clear to everyone that she was not doing anything to prevent a pregnancy, but that she would most certainly terminate it if she were to get pregnant. So to all of you who disagree with Bill O, it's definitely not as uncommon as you'd like to think.

Uhm, don't hate me for being blunt (and a dick, and all), but she's a whore... She is being willfully irresponsible, which is A Bad Thing (tm). This is not what pro-choice is about. People like her are destroying it for the rest of us, by playing into the hands of the anti-choice/pro-life bunch.


I do find it interesting that someone that professes to be a high-esteemed and very involved member of a Christian church is pro-choice in situations other than rape or health issues.

This is a tough spot to go to, because if you actually have to FOLLOW the bible, just because you are a "very involved member of a Christian church" there are many, many other bad things you have to agree with, such as slavery, stoning and rape. I wonder why esteemed members of the church don't go so much for that these days either.

I can also guarantee you that no one I know would go to a pastor for counseling before an abortion. How exactly would that go? "Hi Pastor. So I've been thinking about getting an abortion. What do you think?"

Heh, this would be an interesting counseling session. I'm not sure your guarantee holds up to reality, though, because if you are very religious a pastor is indeed someone to go for guidence, like a third parent, and young people do fuck up, even if they are religious. On this last issue, I only have observational data though*, in that no one near me has ever been in the situation or looked up to a pastor in any way.

*(fancy way of saying that I'm talking out of my ass )

>> ^LittleRed:
I agree. I am not speaking for anyone but myself when I say I am pro-life. I believe life starts at conception. Once the cells start dividing, life is being formed.

By the time the cells start dividing, life has been there for a while already. You realize sperm and egg are living cells, right? Or do you only care about life with 46 chromosomes?

>> ^thinker247:
I have known women who casually had an abortion, but they are the statistical anomaly, not the norm.

Any woman who would make that decision casually should have an abortion because under no circumstances do we want her DNA passed on.

>> ^CaptainPlanet:
Obama's point here is a good one, and i think the conservatives have to concede that hitting at the roots of why woman have abortions and solving some of these problems is something both sides should have long since started working towards together.


It's too late for a cooperative solution; both sides are enjoying the argument too much. It's no longer about solving the problem of abortion, it's about 'proving' that your side is right.

I'm so anti-life, I don't eat Life cereal or play the Game of Life. But I do abort babies with a coat hanger and a Hoover.

>> ^gwiz665:
I'm not pro-choice, I'm anti-life.

>> ^LittleRed:
I do find it interesting that someone that professes to be a high-esteemed and very involved member of a Christian church is pro-choice in situations other than rape or health issues.

Not all Christians share the view that the only/best way to reduce abortions is by outlawing the practice.

Some think that just removes doctors from the situation, and just compounds the tragedy of the abortion with a risk of harm to the mother.

Some Christians think we should be giving kids real sex education, including an encouragement to use contraceptives, and possibly even providing easy access to them.

Personally, I'm pro-Choice, mostly because every woman I've personally asked about it has said it shouldn't be illegal. Not that we should encourage the practice, but it should be on the table.

I also don't have any kind of organized religion in me, so I find myself perpetually confused on how religion comes to believe they know an absolute truth about this, but that's a whole other discussion.

>> ^BillOreilly:
If it was such a "tough" decision to have an abortion, the woman wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place to force her to make said decision. It seems that keeping their pants on is the real decision women have to make, eh?

I agree. I am not speaking for anyone but myself when I say I am pro-life. I believe life starts at conception. Once the cells start dividing, life is being formed. I have a friend who got pregnant while using the NuvaRing and condoms. There is no guarantee that birth control will work.

As for women that don't get abortions casually, I have another friend who was 19, no longer in school, and therefore unable to be covered by her mother's insurance. She was all out of b/c pills and refused to use condoms. She lived with her boyfriend and was a self-proclaimed sex addict. She made it clear to everyone that she was not doing anything to prevent a pregnancy, but that she would most certainly terminate it if she were to get pregnant. So to all of you who disagree with Bill O, it's definitely not as uncommon as you'd like to think.

Yes, I live with my boyfriend. I also keep my pants on. It's not as hard as you would think. And to Dag, it is absolutely not misogynistic to suggest abstinence as an alternative. It is a mutual decision, not just the responsibility of the woman. That's like saying a pregnancy is a woman's fault. It takes two people to make a baby. Self-control is in no way misogyny.

I do find it interesting that someone that professes to be a high-esteemed and very involved member of a Christian church is pro-choice in situations other than rape or health issues.

I can also guarantee you that no one I know would go to a pastor for counseling before an abortion. How exactly would that go? "Hi Pastor. So I've been thinking about getting an abortion. What do you think?"

>> ^CaptainPlanet420:
You must by default be pro-abortion to be pro-choise. Only you kids on here would argue otherwise.
Don't kill the environment, noooooo, and don't kill that poor kitty, nooooo, but let's suck little Johnny's brains out thru a tube, while still in the womb. I think in high skool they called ya'll "posers." hahahahaha, too easy

It's "choice" and "poseur" maybe you should put down the bong for a second and pick up a dictionary. Furthermore, there's plenty of people that should have been aborted for the sake of the environment, kitties and other people. It's just as ok to abort a baby as it is to eat meat products. If you don't believe in eating meat and that all living creatures are equal and you don't kill bugs then you're probably not getting laid because you're too busy cuddling your platonic female friend and watching "The Notebook" to ever get busy and be in the situation where you had to make a decision.

>> ^BillOreilly:
>> ^kronosposeidon:
"I should be home by 6:00, honey. I gotta pick up the dry cleaning, take the kids to soccer practice, go to the hairdresser's, and if I have a few extra minutes I'll get an abortion. I won $500 on the scratch-off lottery tickets, so why not?"

If it was such a "tough" decision to have an abortion, the woman wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place to force her to make said decision. It seems that keeping their pants on is the real decision women have to make, eh?
So yes, I call bull crap. Of course, that's pretty much what comes out of Obama's mouth all of the time anyway...


You'll have to excuse bill. He hasn't really had to make a choice. You'd have to get laid before you were ever included in that discussion