I think you're misconstruing the use of the word "sacrifice" to summon imagery of blood sacrifice (ie Indiana Jones).
Not all sacrifice is macabre or evil. Catholic Mass is a sacrifice.
I've not read a single source regarding Samhain/Halloween/All Saints Eve, even one from "your side" of the argument, that alludes to human sacrifice.

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Projects/Reln91/Blood/sacrificemainpage.htm

Besides, "pagan" is a blanket term. The ones you are trying to illustrate are Druids. They would make animal sacrifices, which were then immediately consumed as part of the festival.
Satan does not exist in the religion which you are misunderstanding. Satan is a Christian idea.
And I still assert that spirits are not all demons. Is the Holy Spirit a demon?

Before you try to correct me, I also have a lot of personal experience in these matters, and I know that there are some misguided individuals. By and large though, "pagan" religions (as paganism is not in-and-of-itself a religion) do not share these views and simply see the matter for what it is. Animals and crops are harvested for the coming winter, and tribute is paid to "the death of a god", not to "a god of death".

You're right, the association of Samhain with the Celtic God of the dead is dubious, I retract my comment there. However, you are still way off. The celtics were pagans, and they did more than just light candles. They would build huge bonfires and conduct vegetable, animal and human sacrifices to their gods. Read your own sources. This is macabre to say the least. Whatever the original purpose of the festival, which was terrible enough, it has been further corrupted by the occult over the centuries and more recently the neo-pagan movement. Ritual sacrifice as worship to spirits and spell casting is most certainly done on this day. This is a power day for the pagans. Some call it the devils birthday. Satan is indeed paid tribute, as any worship of spirits goes to demons. Before you try to correct me, let me just tell you that I have a lot of experience with the occult movement and I know exactly what they think about halloween, and how they celebrate it. They look forward to it all year. You think you're just looking at some harmless and quaint tradition, but has an evil origin, and there is much evil done on it; it is nothing any Christian should get near.

>> ^pho3n1x:
There is no "Celtic God of the Dead"...
It's not a celebration of evil at all, and no worship is paid to any "adversary"...
It is a time for passed loved ones to be remembered and honored.
It is a celebration of death, yes, but not in the morbid fashion. The spirits (your loved ones' ghosts) are said to roam more readily during this period, which is why Gaels and Pagans set out a candle (sometimes within a carved turnip) to represent a guiding lantern home.
Also, spirits != demons.
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_sa.htm
http://www.chalicecentre.net/samhain.htm
http://wicca.com/celtic/akasha/samhainlore.htm
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=holidays&sc=samhain&id=1984
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/samhain.shtml
>> ^shinyblurry:
Halloween has both Christian and pagan origins. Christian, because November 1st was All Saints Day, and October 31st was All Saints Eve. Pagan, because November 1st is called Samhain, which is the celtic new year. Samhain is the celtic god of death. On the eve of Samhain, pagans would make sacrifices to their gods and the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. Today, the pagan and occult community embraces Samhain as their new year. It is regarded as the day when witches are at the height of their power, and they cast many spells and worship spirits(demons) on this day. Whatever it once was, today, behind the facade of candy and costumes, it is a night when evil is celebrated and worship is paid to the adversary. It is certainly not anything Christians should participate in, nor anyone else with a single ounce of discernment.

There is no "Celtic God of the Dead"...
It's not a celebration of evil at all, and no worship is paid to any "adversary"...

It is a time for passed loved ones to be remembered and honored.
It is a celebration of death, yes, but not in the morbid fashion. The spirits (your loved ones' ghosts) are said to roam more readily during this period, which is why Gaels and Pagans set out a candle (sometimes within a carved turnip) to represent a guiding lantern home.

Also, spirits != demons.

Also, animal sacrifices which are then cooked and eaten? I don't see a problem. Sounds a lot like Thanksgiving.

--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_sa.htm
http://www.chalicecentre.net/samhain.htm
http://wicca.com/celtic/akasha/samhainlore.htm
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=holidays&sc=samhain&id=1984
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/samhain.shtml

>> ^shinyblurry:

Halloween has both Christian and pagan origins. Christian, because November 1st was All Saints Day, and October 31st was All Saints Eve. Pagan, because November 1st is called Samhain, which is the celtic new year. Samhain is the celtic god of death. On the eve of Samhain, pagans would make sacrifices to their gods and the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. Today, the pagan and occult community embraces Samhain as their new year. It is regarded as the day when witches are at the height of their power, and they cast many spells and worship spirits(demons) on this day. Whatever it once was, today, behind the facade of candy and costumes, it is a night when evil is celebrated and worship is paid to the adversary. It is certainly not anything Christians should participate in, nor anyone else with a single ounce of discernment.

Halloween has both Christian and pagan origins. Christian, because November 1st was All Saints Day, and October 31st was All Saints Eve. Pagan, because November 1st is called Samhain, which is the celtic new year. Samhain is the celtic god of death. On the eve of Samhain, pagans would make sacrifices to their gods and the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. Today, the pagan and occult community embraces Samhain as their new year. It is regarded as the day when witches are at the height of their power, and they cast many spells and worship spirits(demons) on this day. Whatever it once was, today, behind the facade of candy and costumes, it is a night when evil is celebrated and worship is paid to the adversary. It is certainly not anything Christians should participate in, nor anyone else with a single ounce of discernment.

yes you believe in ghosts. Just 1 though. And everything else you believe is at least as silly as anything Halloween drags up. Oh and as long as your tossing out pagan holidays toss out Yule will ya? The rest of us are tired of hearing about the so called war on christmas.

Okay I voted "Pagan".

Pandeism actually looks very close to my own, invented theology--except for anything having to do with the creation of the universe. Since none of us was there--there's no way of knowing.

Well, some ideas may have been floating around, but Christians are the ones who put them into practice. Read about Robert Grosseteste and the christians after him who refined his ideas.. The scientific revolution took place is medievil europe, and the people responsible were all devout Christians.

Also, please dont pigeonhole Christians with superstitious pagan religions who cried in horror every time lightning struck..this is the entire point that it is the presumption of Christianity that God created an orderly universe with natural laws that could be observed and verified.

>> ^Psychologic:
>> ^shinyblurry:
You probably have no idea but the scientific method was created by Christians who believed that matter behaved rationally because God created an orderly universe.
The scientific method was not "created", nor did its origins stem from any particular group. It was was a gradual refinement of repeating observation and experimentation, and it involved Christians, Muslims, and others that predate both religions (it's worth noting the development was during times when people would often be tortured and killed for daring to doubt the existence of a creator).
Most people like to be reasonably sure what is real versus what someone made up and others believed anyway. That's why we test ideas and observations... to know whether a particular belief or possibility holds any real basis in reality.
People used to claim all kinds of magical events that only happened to others. Heck, they still do. We have the scientific method because people got tired of it and wanted to know what was reproducable.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Well firstly, the pope is a type of antichrist. The catholic religion is not Christian, which may suprise you. It suprised me too because before I became a Christian I didn't know the difference. It is a pagan religion which derives from Christianity but is in every way is antithetical to biblical teaching.
Second, I am saying the magic bracelet isn't completely fake. I am saying it will appear to grant the properties and characteristics expected by the wearer. This is due to spiritual deception by Satan. It isn't that it is wrong for people to have strength and balance, it is the source they are trying to get it from..ie, not God.
If you take a piece of wood and worship it, a demon will assigned to it to receive that worship. Whenever you're calling upon something other than God, Satan can and does use it to mislead and corrupt. These things always have spiritual connotations. Even the flying spaghetti monster has become a false idol, and receives worship. http://www.venganza.org/
I did in fact say this isn't a new deception, just an old one in new packaging. Pagans have been using this kind of spiritual systems for thousands of years, impuing objects with special powers and using them to manipulate reality. This is sorcery for the masses.

>> ^albrite30:
>> ^shinyblurry:
It's a satanic deception. This is simply new age mysticism, and people enmasse are being trained to embrace and accept it. The principles of it stem from occult practices which have been practiced for a milennia. It is quite simply magic, or the attempt to gain power over reality by human willpower and directed intention. Since you are blind you don't see the spiritual consequences of these things, but they are plainly obvious . People are being taught to rely on mysticism and esoteric knowledge rather than God, to believe that they themselves can be gods, just as the serpent promised in the garden. There is nothing new under the sun; this is a very old deception. Satan doesn't have any new tricks, and he doesn't need any, because the old ones keep paying off.
>> ^KnivesOut:
Lol you're just as deluded as the idiots who buy this crap thinking it will change their life for the better.
Pro-tip: its an inert piece of plastic, not a fucking magic talisman.>> ^shinyblurry:
This is a spiritual issue. Anyone wearing this bracelet is engaging in sorcery, because this is basically magic. This leaves them open to deception from the enemy. The wearers of these bracelet may well be perceiving a tangible benefit because of this spiritual deception. It is just one of the tacts the enemy uses in spiritual warfare, getting people to rely on themselves or magic devices, or things like "the secret".



I don't see the difference between "new age mysticism" and old age mysticism. What the message seems to be in this video is that some object can bring about strength, endurance, and balance. Why is that so wrong to you shinny? What do you think the holy trinity is other than a mass propagated symbol of strength, endurance, and balance. The value of the message is a universal desire for that kind of thing in a person's life. People are NOT being trained these days to accept new deception, rather they have been trained for thousands of years to accept the same deception from various faiths in existence today. Seems to me that if you are losing members of your flock to gadgets such as these, it may be time to get a more charismatic preacher. Maybe if the pope signed off on the iRenew you would be singing a different tune.



Who should I speak to about getting my piece of wood assigned a demon? I pity your insanity.

Well firstly, the pope is a type of antichrist. The catholic religion is not Christian, which may suprise you. It suprised me too because before I became a Christian I didn't know the difference. It is a pagan religion which derives from Christianity but is in every way is antithetical to biblical teaching.

Second, I am saying the magic bracelet isn't completely fake. I am saying it will appear to grant the properties and characteristics expected by the wearer. This is due to spiritual deception by Satan. It isn't that it is wrong for people to have strength and balance, it is the source they are trying to get it from..ie, not God.

If you take a piece of wood and worship it, a demon will assigned to it to receive that worship. Whenever you're calling upon something other than God, Satan can and does use it to mislead and corrupt. These things always have spiritual connotations. Even the flying spaghetti monster has become a false idol, and receives worship. http://www.venganza.org/

I did in fact say this isn't a new deception, just an old one in new packaging. Pagans have been using this kind of spiritual systems for thousands of years, impuing objects with special powers and using them to manipulate reality. This is sorcery for the masses.



>> ^albrite30:
>> ^shinyblurry:
It's a satanic deception. This is simply new age mysticism, and people enmasse are being trained to embrace and accept it. The principles of it stem from occult practices which have been practiced for a milennia. It is quite simply magic, or the attempt to gain power over reality by human willpower and directed intention. Since you are blind you don't see the spiritual consequences of these things, but they are plainly obvious . People are being taught to rely on mysticism and esoteric knowledge rather than God, to believe that they themselves can be gods, just as the serpent promised in the garden. There is nothing new under the sun; this is a very old deception. Satan doesn't have any new tricks, and he doesn't need any, because the old ones keep paying off.
>> ^KnivesOut:
Lol you're just as deluded as the idiots who buy this crap thinking it will change their life for the better.
Pro-tip: its an inert piece of plastic, not a fucking magic talisman.>> ^shinyblurry:
This is a spiritual issue. Anyone wearing this bracelet is engaging in sorcery, because this is basically magic. This leaves them open to deception from the enemy. The wearers of these bracelet may well be perceiving a tangible benefit because of this spiritual deception. It is just one of the tacts the enemy uses in spiritual warfare, getting people to rely on themselves or magic devices, or things like "the secret".



I don't see the difference between "new age mysticism" and old age mysticism. What the message seems to be in this video is that some object can bring about strength, endurance, and balance. Why is that so wrong to you shinny? What do you think the holy trinity is other than a mass propagated symbol of strength, endurance, and balance. The value of the message is a universal desire for that kind of thing in a person's life. People are NOT being trained these days to accept new deception, rather they have been trained for thousands of years to accept the same deception from various faiths in existence today. Seems to me that if you are losing members of your flock to gadgets such as these, it may be time to get a more charismatic preacher. Maybe if the pope signed off on the iRenew you would be singing a different tune.

That's pretty much where I am coming from. Although, I wouldn't call my system dualistic if the sense is that they are equal forces. Now, this kind of evil may seem mundane, even banal, but really that is the worst kind. Slow change over time turns the good bad and the bad good. Satan uses and abuses whatever access he has, which is every person who sins, and he has a worldwide plan of deception built into every facet of modern life. Most of the corrupting ideas he insinuates into society have the same basic principles:

Get people to worship anything other than God..ie, other gods, money, power, themselves..etc

Get people to worship the creation rather than the Creator..ie, the pagans, deists and animists, environmentalists

Get people to believe that they can change reality through will power or do things under their own power..ie, the new age movement, secular humanists etc

Everything which is going on has a spiritual dimension, which is basically a war between the forces of good and evil. There is no space which isn't claimed, so everything which can be claimed is in dispute. While this might be a little thing in the grand deception, it helps reinforce the self-empowerment theology that many ascribe to.



>> ^Krupo:
No worries, I get lazy sometimes and just ascribe my comments to upvotes and downvotes.
To go along with your desire to ban 'craaazy' thoughts, that's where the downvote function comes in handy. To play "anti-devil's advocate" (if you see what I did there), despite what you may think, shiny made a valid point, grounded in some pretty logical teaching in a dualistic sort of systme (not really usign the right terms, but let's move on) -> if you do believe in the supernatural (and many do), if you're not embracing spiritual power from God / the "positive" source, then everything else is coming from the negative source (e.g. Satan or the evil equivalent you suscribe to).
Now, drawing a link between a TV scam and the Prince of Darkness is a bit of a stretch, but if you see "scams" as evil, and Satan as "the boss of evil", then this isn't as crazy as it sounds. And certainly not ban-worthy.
Fun discussion though. <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/smile.gif">
Incidentally, in the thread, which isn't really 'mine' but belnoging to the video, I was more shocked taht I hadn't put this into the eia channel as ant did for me. For surely, if you see someone of your favorite gender wearing one, it'll make you reconsider things.
>> ^Boise_Lib:
@EvilDeathBee - Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
"Nothing he's said has been extremely offensive or outrageous." I agree.
"Also, who knows? Maybe us challenging him all the time may lead him to start questioning all the nonsense that has been shoveled upon him." I disagree--any comments which don't agree with his previous mindset will only be seen as an "attack" on his "faith" (read delusions). This will actually only harden his resolve to chastise the sinners.
"...banning him simply for speaking his beliefs would simply be hypocritical on this site." I agree--that's why I stated above, "If sb just stated his/her beliefs that would be a different story, but this insistence on continually attacking over--and over--and over gets real old, real fast." For example take qm, I completely disagree with almost everything he says (and I think he might be an unstable person), but I would fight to keep him from being banned just for that. When qm has something to say--he says it--then moves on; he doesn't take over the whole thread and trash someones posting spouting trite crap.
About the ignore button--I'm not really sure how it works. Does it wipe out all the replies? Some of the replies are gold and I wouldn't want to miss them. If I ignore someone does that mean I wouldn't see their comments on a video I posted? I wouldn't want that because I want to see all activity on my posts.
Now, banning may not be the only solution available to the site admin here. If his comments could be limited to one per video that might be a viable solution--with out invoking the dreaded ban. As @Payback has said before if everyone simply ignored him the whole problem would go away--but that's (almost) against human nature.
Thanks again for the discussion, and Sorry @Krupo for taking up so much of your thread.

Thanks..I think the series as a whole is rather fascinating as it traces all the thousands of different pagan Gods people have worshiped back to babylon. It also shows how occult symbolism stemming from babylon is still prevelent in our culture today.
>> ^Lawdeedaw:
Wow, lot of up and down voting here... Conflicted aren't we? I give it the UPs because it is unique and I LOVE FREE SPEECH AND IDEAS BEING PASSED AROUND WITHOUT JUDGMENT.
However, the video itself wasn't what I call...well, I am sleepy now.

I take that as a compliment, as I respect Hitchens as a writer and speaker (though we disagree on some politics). I haven't read any of his work beyond news oriented articles on Slate (and some videos here), though, so I can't say how well we agree on this in particular. In any case, lack of originality is a pretty sad point to make against an argument. I'm fairly sure, for example, that I couldn't make an original case for the Pythagoran theorem - though I could probably submit 10 different proofs, they've all been done (and 100 others).

Your prose was matching his word for word, point for point..particularly about "thought crime". Also with the ridiculous comparisons between scientology and Christianity. It was so egregious that I couldn't help but feel I should just go to youtube and find a Hitchens video and comment there as my reply.

It's a certitude that the biggest mouths against Scientology have an agenda. It comes from a heart polluted by Thetans. Hey, this is fun!

To be fair, I'm sure many critics of Christianity (or Scientology) have some axe to grind, or are angry because the church makes them feel guilty about bad things they've done. That doesn't mean they're wrong. Similarly, most people posting bad reviews of Kias are probably people who had a bad Kia (or auto reviewers, but there aren't a lot of professional reviewers for religion). What you're doing here is an actual ad hominem fallacy (as opposed to the times you call it, when it's just you complaining because someone was mean to you). As with most fallacies, there's a grain of truth - it does make sense here to question arguments from people with a bone to pick. But you still question their points, not their backgrounds.

It's not the church that is making someone feel guilty, it's their own God given conscience that does so. People don't come to believe in Christ because they were guilted into doing so; that in itself is a ridiculous premise. People come to Christ in part because of personal conviction from their own conscience; they already knew they were guilty. They realize that it is not just other people they have offended but God Himself, and without a mediator they have no hope of standing on their own merits.

Yes, I know what you're implying, since you already shared your history with me. It's true many previous believers strike out in anger because they feel wronged for being indoctrinated. In your case, it's probably justifiable. However, it goes much farther than that. This kind of person tends to get disillusioned and emboldened, and goes to the other extreme, feeling cocky and self assured because they now perceive themselves as being elevated and enlightened over anyone who believes.

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

These sorts of people usually become worse sinners than anyone else because they feel above Gods laws. They treasure this new found "freedom" and don't want to give it up in their self righteouness. What they perceive as freedom from the law is really mental and emotional derangement from sin. So in the same manner they still hate Gods authority because they prefer their sins.

Mr. Hubbard, obviously. It is a certainty that Dianetics perfectly describes the human condition. If you disagree, it's Thetans. Maybe I'll shorten that to IYDIT.

But yeah, people are bad. That was one of my premises, and it's why shame is so effective. Were you agreeing with me as a ploy? You know, make me feel like a moron for being on your side? Or maybe you're being like on Bugs Bunny where he would throw in "Rabbit Season" after a few rounds?

Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyk. He has soft brown hair and talks with kind of like a growling, elk-call sound. IYDIT.

Your entire premise here is a fallacy. You are falsely equivilcating Christianity to Scientology, and then using attacks upon your Scientology strawman (which are easily refuted) to try to knock it down. Scientology was a story authored by a science fiction writer trying to deify himself.

"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."

L. Ron Hubbard

Dude, when I disagree with Scientology, it doesn't matter that L. Ron Hubbard really existed. Similarly, most people are happy to believe that there was a guy name Jesus who preached at that time. Also, this is a fantastically stupid point to bring up. With Jesus or Hubbard, the question isn't whether they existed, it's whether what they said was true (and, to a lesser extent, whether they or their celebrity endorsers could perform miracles).

And no, Christianity isn't a conspiracy to control people. Usually. The fact that it works like this isn't by design, it's by evolution. The churches and denominations that survive are the ones that approach things in a certain way. The people who try to be non-judgmental, independent followers of Christ? They're cool, but their churches don't last or franchise out. The ones that survive and flourish (like Scientology) in modern times tend to work this way.

Further in the past, they had more strategies available, like just killing people who didn't believe - now they have to be a bit more subtle.

What's completely stupid here is your chain of reasoning. Christianity is centered on Christ; whether or not He existed is central. Most of what Christ said centered around His claim to be God, and judge of the entire world. If He didn't exist it isn't true. This is just babble at this point, dude.

Regardless of how people may have abused Christianity in the past does not speak to its truth. If anything it confirms it, as the bible warns countless times of false teachers and prophets who will try to distort the message and use it for gain. The early church flourished under heavy persecution, and Christians were murdered continually for the truth they shared. Do you think the church was so successful in controlling people that they could make them sing praises to Jesus while they were being burned alive? Give me a break.

What you're talking about is the catholic church, and they aren't Christians. They are basically a pagan religion that worships Mary and the Pope. There is a conspiracy in that so called church, a will to power. Among Christians, however, we exist in fellowship. You were part of a church once and you still apparently want to stay that way, so I think you understand about fellowship.

Correct.

Lilith mentions

c.40-10BC Dead Sea Scrolls - Songs for a Sage (4Q510-511)
c.500 Gemara of the Talmud
c.800 The Alphabet of Ben-Sira
c.900 Midrash Abkir
c.1260 Treatise on the Left Emanation, Spain
c.1280 Zohar, Spain.

Genesis was written around 1400 years before any of these.

>> ^enoch:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Lilith was never in scripture and was written about over 1000 years after genesis. It was written as Jewish folklore, and developed mostly in the middle ages. Today it is particularly embraced by pagans, gnostics and radical femenists. It's yet another lie, out of millions, that tries to derail the Creation story and that people buy into without doing any research. There is no lilith conspiracy..she never existed.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
@0:34 "Ever since the earth's first woman..."
bzzt! Eve was the earth's second woman.


incorrect.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Lilith was never in scripture and was written about over 1000 years after genesis. It was written as Jewish folklore, and developed mostly in the middle ages. Today it is particularly embraced by pagans, gnostics and radical femenists. It's yet another lie, out of millions, that tries to derail the Creation story and that people buy into without doing any research. There is no lilith conspiracy..she never existed.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
@0:34 "Ever since the earth's first woman..."
bzzt! Eve was the earth's second woman.



incorrect.

Well that's odd. You see, just 3 nights ago, God spoke to me in a dream and told me that, while it's true that her first appearance in writing was around 500AD, her story is nevertheless legit. She was Adam's first wife, made from the same earth as Adam.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Lilith was never in scripture and was written about over 1000 years after genesis. It was written as Jewish folklore, and developed mostly in the middle ages. Today it is particularly embraced by pagans, gnostics and radical femenists. It's yet another lie, out of millions, that tries to derail the Creation story and that people buy into without doing any research. There is no lilith conspiracy..she never existed.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
@0:34 "Ever since the earth's first woman..."
bzzt! Eve was the earth's second woman.