^vote for lucifer.

>> ^dag:

I really enjoyed those Wilson books too. It was a SF subject, but didn't read like SF - maybe because, like you say, he focused more on the characters' reactions than the technology itself. The first one, Spin, is a great "almost end of the world" kind of book.Yeah, the view point of the story is very "bottom up", with incredible technology presented like a force of nature, accessible to humans, but never controlled by them. His writing style is not typical of SF either. Some words that come to mind regarding his style are plain, solid, easy flowing. He's never trying to impress you with linguistic finesse, just keeps the text moving right along. Sort of the opposite extreme of Stephenson, where word play, sentence construction and all that is very much a part of the show.



Speaking of end of the world books, I had read Lucifer's Hammer for the first time a few months ago. It was published in 1977, so it's a little dated, but a great read nonetheless.

From Lucifer, the Theosophical magazine:

"And, when God said: 'Let there be light,' Intelligence was made and light appeared.

"Then, the Intelligence which God had breathed forth, like a planet detached from the Sun, took the form of a splendid Angel and the heavens saluted him with the name Lucifer.

"Intelligence awoke and it fathomed its own depths as it heard this apostrophe of the divine Word, 'Let there be Light.' It felt itself to be free, for God had commanded it so to be, and it answered, raising its head and spreading its wings, 'I will not be Slavery.'…"

"God then unloosed from his bosom the thread of splendour which held back the superb spirit, and as he watched him dive into the night, cutting in it a path of glory, he loved the child of his thought, and smiling with a smile ineffable, he murmured to himself: 'How fair a thing was this Light!'…"

"Perhaps Lucifer, in plunging into the night, drew with him a shower of Stars and Suns by the attraction of his glory?" (italics in original)

From Helena Petrovna Blavatsky the founder of modern Theosophy

"Lucifer represents.. Life.. Thought.. Progress.. Civilization.. Liberty.. Independence.. Lucifer is the Logos.. the Serpent, the Savior." pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)

"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

"The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestrial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and 'Satan' at one and the same time." page 539

Doesn't seem like Levay was too far off. Perhaps he was just taking this rebellion against authority to its natural conclusion, in which Satan is its grand architect?

In reply to this comment by enoch:
levay was a plagerizing,self aggrandizing twat.
the church may have taken his bullshit seriously but the esoteric community practically laughed him out of existence.
his theosophy was a joke.

@NetRunner @dystopianfuturetoday

I'm looking for debate too, but I'm not going to find it if I argue the progressive angle. I'll be Lucifer's lawyer on this one.


A few things. First, I'm with those of you who doubt the truth of Schiff's statement that he's paying 50% of his income in taxes. I demand to see his tax return!

I'm potentially sympathetic to Schiff here. As we all know income taxes, and even capital gains taxes aren't the only taxes that exist. Schiff is a business owner. I suspect his issue is with the "double taxing" of profits. His business makes a profit which is then taxed. That taxation thus reduces the value of his business. Further, the remaining profits are taxed again (in the form of capital gains) when he decides to liquidate his stake in the company. So if you basically make your money by creating value in businesses in exchange for an ownership stake, that value is taxed twice before you even see it. Now of course this comes from someone that frequently makes disingenuous claims like the majority of Americans "don't pay taxes," considering the substantial share of their income they pay in consumption taxes; but his point stands on its own. I wish we had a more streamlined tax system that did away with loopholes as well as double taxation of value creation (like a VAT).


Secondly, even if it were 50%, and it went up to 65%, in what universe is it ever in Schiff's interest to stop making money? In fact, wouldn't it be an incentive for him to work harder? If he's used to a lifestyle of consumption of $1 million a year, and suddenly he's only able to consume $800k/yr, wouldn't that mean he'd redouble his efforts and try to make more money if he couldn't accept such austerity? He certainly wouldn't dismantle his businesses and cut off the source of his income.

You clearly don't value your time. Schiff's input/brand is probably the core asset of his ventures (in fact that's something you always have to remember about the guy, he's selling himself). That means he probably leads a fairly stressful life, and might choose to exchange some of his labor for the leisure time he could clearly afford in either case. That means generating less business, and thus requiring fewer "cost centers" (like staff). One argument might be that if he does dismantle his business, someone else will just fill the void in the marketplace, and hire (possibly that same) staff. However, if it was the case that there was someone willing to do what Schiff does for substantially less than Schiff, it's likely they'd already be competing with him under the favorable tax rates.


Thirdly, on jobs, like dft said, employers hire exactly as many people as they need to produce the amount of goods (or services) they're able to sell, and not a single person more. They're not going to hire more people to produce more goods if they can't sell all of what they're currently producing, that would just be pure loss to them.

This isn't always true. Businesses often use recessions to "buy labor low" to prepare a competitive advantage for the next cycle. Propping up the labor market arguably never lets the labor market reach a valuation in which this market based counter-cyclic mechanism can take place. It's further arguable that if you allowed that mechanism to take place, the resulting employment allocation may be more efficient/sustainable than, e.g. taking a census. I'm a bleeding heart, so you don't have to tell me about breadlines and old people in the streets, but part of me feels as though the youth has become soft. They don't want to learn. They don't create with what they have. They play video games and argue on Videosift.


Putting more money into the hands of the suppliers isn't going to boost employment for exactly that reason. Employers will only hire new people if they need to produce more goods, and they're only going to produce more goods if their sales increase. You really need to put more money into the hands of people who want to consume, not those who want to produce. You need to find a large group of people who want to buy more things, but can't because they don't have the money. In other words, you need to put money into the hands of poor people, not rich factory owners.

See Schiff would say DON'T give money to the employers. Stop giving money to ANYBODY. Leave the money right where the market put it. Doing anything else just allows some asshole to hoodwink the whole damn country rather than just their clients. Personally I feel there needs to be some initial breaking up of the oligarchy if you really want to pursue that line of reasoning (i.e. sorry Schiff, we're taking your gold with our pitchforks), but that's just me.


Schiff doesn't seem to know all this stuff, which is why everyone should laugh in his face when he says he knows anything about economics.

Come on, we're classier than that.

Video added to playlist. Invite sent! Mwahahahaaaaaa (devilish laugh)!!!!!!!!!!!


In reply to this comment by hpqp:
Hello Satan's little helper, I hear you have a Radiohead playlist going, perhaps this darkly atmospheric vid might make the cut?

http://videosift.com/video/Radiohead-4-minute-warning-unofficial-vi
deo-clip

In reply to this comment by Issykitty:
Hail SAGAN! Also, Lucifer lives in Switzerland!!!

Hello Satan's little helper, I hear you have a Radiohead playlist going, perhaps this darkly atmospheric vid might make the cut?

http://videosift.com/video/Radiohead-4-minute-warning-unofficial-video-clip

In reply to this comment by Issykitty:
Hail SAGAN! Also, Lucifer lives in Switzerland!!!

Hail SAGAN! Also, Lucifer lives in Switzerland!!!

Shiny sure knows how to flatter me

In reply to this comment by Issykitty:
So the word around town now is that YOU are Lucifer??? Awesome!

Typical thing for Lucifer to submit. Don't try to distract us with your seemingly harmless "cute" submissions.

So the word around town now is that YOU are Lucifer??? Awesome!

I think it varies. I think some of you have more than a suspicion, but don't want to stop living the way you do so you're in denial. Others, like HQPQ are deliberately suppressing the truth.

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Meaning, that Gods eternal power and divine nature are revealed through the Creation itself. This is how I came to know there was a God, because it was clearly revealed to me that there is a higher power working in this world. Before that, I had no real opinion on it and wasn't even looking for an answer.

Perhaps God has yet to make it clear to you. If that is the case, if you ask God to reveal Himself to you He just might do it. It depends on what is in your heart, whether you are interested in the truth or comfortable with lies. Faith is a gift from God, and no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him near first, so the unrighteous remain blinded by their own wickedness.

John 3:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

btw, i have a star? Am I just an idiot because I'm not seeing one..







>> ^shuac:
>> ^shinyblurry:
You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.
As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.

Firstly, congrats on the star, sb. Sincerely. You might actually be on your way to acquiring your downvote powers. If that happens, fellas...watch out, we'll have another ant on our hands. <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/wink.gif">
Secondly, a serious question: Are you doing the whole "you're-just-angry-with-god" thing for hpqp's benefit or do you believe that is the case with all people who claim to be atheists?
In other words, do you accept the fact that there are people who are genuine non-believers for whom all these admonitions are moot? I realize they're real for you and that you think they're real for us too. But do you accept that we, that is to say: those of us who identify themselves as such, are genuine non-believers who do not lose a nanosecond of sleep worrying about whether we've made a terrible mistake?
Or is it your position that we're all secretly in denial?

>> ^shinyblurry:

You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.
As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.


Firstly, congrats on the star, sb. Sincerely. You might actually be on your way to acquiring your downvote powers. If that happens, fellas...watch out, we'll have another ant on our hands.

Secondly, a serious question: Are you doing the whole "you're-just-angry-with-god" thing for hpqp's benefit or do you believe that is the case with all people who claim to be atheists?

In other words, do you accept the fact that there are people who are genuine non-believers for whom all these admonitions are moot? I realize they're real for you and that you think they're real for us too. But do you accept that we, that is to say: those of us who identify themselves as such, are genuine non-believers who do not lose a nanosecond of sleep worrying about whether we've made a terrible mistake?

Or is it your position that we're all secretly in denial?

You're not lucifer but occassionally you speak his mind. As far as what you hate, it's the same as anyone else who is in rebellion; you hate Gods authority over your life. You're obviously not secure in your beliefs, and the reason is..God has made His existence plain to you. Although you have supressed the truth, you know there is a God and that you are under His authority. What you hate is the fact that you will account to Him one day, but still you do what you do knowing the consequences. You said you were once some manner of Christian..which means that the truth has become common to you..you rejected the Holy Spirit so you no longer understand it, but in your eyes you think you understand it better than people who do have the Spirit. It's caused you to become supremely arrogant towards God, and thus it is unlikely you will realize your error. It's not hopeless..you're obviously still pretty young and might grow up one day..but as it stands now you are in serious trouble.

As far as what you really feel about me..who knows? You don't know me, and in any case the persona you project here is always putting on a sarcastic little show..nothing real to be seen as of yet so its impossible to tell.

>> ^hpqp:
Aww Shiny, what happened to "Who you love is yourself. How you love is like gargling razor blades with grain alcohol"? You shouldn't censor yourself like that, it's unhealthy. Let it all out, tell us how you really feel!
Oh, and thank you for suggesting I'm Lucifer, I would've thought it pretentious to call myself
the light-bearer, but if it's you saying it I'll humbly accept the compliment.
edit: btw shiny, how are you so sure it's you I don't like, and not all the hateful and ignorant religious drivel you spout nonstop?
@ghark filling in for @CaptainObvious are we?
>> ^shinyblurry:
What you'd love is to be God, to ascend to Heaven: to raise your throne above the stars of God. To sit entrhoned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Isaiah 14:15
But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.
>> ^hpqp:
I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.
Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/troll.gif">

Aww Shiny, what happened to "Who you love is yourself. How you love is like gargling razor blades with grain alcohol"? You shouldn't censor yourself like that, it's unhealthy. Let it all out, tell us how you really feel!

Oh, and thank you for suggesting I'm Lucifer, I would've thought it pretentious to call myself
the light-bearer, but if it's you saying it I'll humbly accept the compliment.

edit: btw shiny, how are you so sure it's you I don't like, and not all the hateful and ignorant religious drivel you spout nonstop?



@ghark filling in for @CaptainObvious are we?

>> ^shinyblurry:

What you'd love is to be God, to ascend to Heaven: to raise your throne above the stars of God. To sit entrhoned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
Isaiah 14:15
But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.
>> ^hpqp:
I love you the same way God does @shinyblurry... actually, no, I wouldn't curse you and all your descendants for disobeying me once, nor would I condemn you to eternal torture for not loving me back.
Heck, that means I <3 you more than He does, by Jove!
<IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/troll.gif">

It isn't petty. Do you call the destruction of a perfect creation and bringing death into the world, petty? God is the ultimate King and judge. He has laws and there are penalties for breaking those laws. He told Adam very clearly and in advance the penalty for sin is death, and Adam did it anyway.
He is a God of justice, so He is going to punish all sin..but He is also merciful, which is why He sent His Son into the world to pay the price we could never pay ourselves.

>> ^acidSpine:
God plunged the world into darkness and death over one sin? Yeah that's about the pettiest thing I've ever heard.
>> ^shinyblurry:
Just one sin was enough to plunge the Earth into darkness and bring death into the world. That isn't petty. What is contemptible, vainglorious and infinitely evil is the desire to disobey God and sin without consequence. Anyone who adovocates that deserves their punishment.
>> ^acidSpine:
Yep, when the punishment is infinite torture all that stuff sounds petty to me. The god you describe is petty, vainglorious and infinitely evil <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/tongue.gif">
>> ^shinyblurry:
No sin is petty, because all sin leads to death. There is no such thing as a small sin. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed God, hated someone, or looked at a woman with lust you've broken most of the commandments. God isn't interested in playing the gotchya game with someone. He is willing to forgive. It's the people who want to continue sinning and refuse to reform or change their ways that He is going to punish. This life is a brief moment compared to eternity. Is it really worth it to you to gain a short term pleasure at the sacrifice of your eternal future? Your rebellion isn't going to gain you anything except death.
btw, if you heard the clip Hitchens admitted why he rejected Him..because God would put a damper on his preferred lifestyle..again, there is nothing new under the sun. this has been the song of unbelievers for millenia..rejecting God because they want to do it their way