God plunged the world into darkness and death over one sin? Yeah that's about the pettiest thing I've ever heard.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Just one sin was enough to plunge the Earth into darkness and bring death into the world. That isn't petty. What is contemptible, vainglorious and infinitely evil is the desire to disobey God and sin without consequence. Anyone who adovocates that deserves their punishment.

>> ^acidSpine:
Yep, when the punishment is infinite torture all that stuff sounds petty to me. The god you describe is petty, vainglorious and infinitely evil <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/tongue.gif">
>> ^shinyblurry:
No sin is petty, because all sin leads to death. There is no such thing as a small sin. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed God, hated someone, or looked at a woman with lust you've broken most of the commandments. God isn't interested in playing the gotchya game with someone. He is willing to forgive. It's the people who want to continue sinning and refuse to reform or change their ways that He is going to punish. This life is a brief moment compared to eternity. Is it really worth it to you to gain a short term pleasure at the sacrifice of your eternal future? Your rebellion isn't going to gain you anything except death.
btw, if you heard the clip Hitchens admitted why he rejected Him..because God would put a damper on his preferred lifestyle..again, there is nothing new under the sun. this has been the song of unbelievers for millenia..rejecting God because they want to do it their way

Just one sin was enough to plunge the Earth into darkness and bring death into the world. That isn't petty. What is contemptible, vainglorious and infinitely evil is the desire to disobey God and sin without consequence. Anyone who adovocates that deserves their punishment.


>> ^acidSpine:
Yep, when the punishment is infinite torture all that stuff sounds petty to me. The god you describe is petty, vainglorious and infinitely evil <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/tongue.gif">
>> ^shinyblurry:
No sin is petty, because all sin leads to death. There is no such thing as a small sin. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed God, hated someone, or looked at a woman with lust you've broken most of the commandments. God isn't interested in playing the gotchya game with someone. He is willing to forgive. It's the people who want to continue sinning and refuse to reform or change their ways that He is going to punish. This life is a brief moment compared to eternity. Is it really worth it to you to gain a short term pleasure at the sacrifice of your eternal future? Your rebellion isn't going to gain you anything except death.
btw, if you heard the clip Hitchens admitted why he rejected Him..because God would put a damper on his preferred lifestyle..again, there is nothing new under the sun. this has been the song of unbelievers for millenia..rejecting God because they want to do it their way

Yep, when the punishment is infinite torture all that stuff sounds petty to me. The god you describe is petty, vainglorious and infinitely evil

>> ^shinyblurry:

No sin is petty, because all sin leads to death. There is no such thing as a small sin. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed God, hated someone, or looked at a woman with lust you've broken most of the commandments. God isn't interested in playing the gotchya game with someone. He is willing to forgive. It's the people who want to continue sinning and refuse to reform or change their ways that He is going to punish. This life is a brief moment compared to eternity. Is it really worth it to you to gain a short term pleasure at the sacrifice of your eternal future? Your rebellion isn't going to gain you anything except death.
btw, if you heard the clip Hitchens admitted why he rejected Him..because God would put a damper on his preferred lifestyle..again, there is nothing new under the sun. this has been the song of unbelievers for millenia..rejecting God because they want to do it their way

No sin is petty, because all sin leads to death. There is no such thing as a small sin. If you've ever lied, stolen, blasphemed God, hated someone, or looked at a woman with lust you've broken most of the commandments. God isn't interested in playing the gotchya game with someone. He is willing to forgive. It's the people who want to continue sinning and refuse to reform or change their ways that He is going to punish. This life is a brief moment compared to eternity. Is it really worth it to you to gain a short term pleasure at the sacrifice of your eternal future? Your rebellion isn't going to gain you anything except death.

btw, if you heard the clip Hitchens admitted why he rejected Him..because God would put a damper on his preferred lifestyle..again, there is nothing new under the sun. this has been the song of unbelievers for millenia..rejecting God because they want to do it their way

>> ^acidSpine:
You're right, I couldn't commit murder and recieve forgivness 'cause I don't believe this nonsense. But I don't think were talking about murder here are we? When you talk about sin, you're talking about a whole raft of petty little "crimes" against your god. Maybe you should be more specific when you accuse Atheists of rejecting god so they can sin all they want. What do you mean by "sin" in this case? My guess is it's a bunch of meaningless social norms you'd like to subject society to (for my second guess I'll say you won't bother to answer the question).
Hitchens (who isn't my intellectual idol btw, that would be Noam Chomsky <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/teeth.gif">) would be quite right to reject this deity on the grounds that he finds it's moral code abhorrent although I'm quite convinced the rejection comes, in Hitchens' case, from the aforementioned total lack of evidence.
>> ^shinyblurry:
You're right, I didn't state that very well.
There isn't anyone good. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Without Jesus, we are all hellbound. But, the good news is that God made a provision for us.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, to pay the price that we ourselves could not pay. We are saved by faith in Him, that He rose from the dead. Thereby, we are saved by the grace of God, not because of something we did.
Now, your example is not valid. You cannot manipulate the grace of God. Your life isn't guaranteed, and the only reason you're drawing breath right now is because of God. If you think you can go out and commit a bunch of crime and then ask God for forgiveness later, knowing full well what you're doing, you're sadly mistaken.
btw, at least your idol Hitchens is intellectually honest enough to admit the real reason why he won't come to God for forgiveness..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AX1CswHCkA&feature=related
skip to 6:25

God is sovereign and can adjudicate His creation how He pleases. God caused a global flood which killed everyone in the world except for 8 people. God recalls the lives of over a million people every day. It's in His hands. It's not an atrocity to take a life when you were the one who granted it in the first place and the one who sustained it daily. He has the power over life and death and is well within His rights to use it. Who are you tell God what He can or cannot do with it? This entire world belongs to Him.

You seem to be under some illusion that people are generally good. They're not. Have you ever read a history book? People are generally sinful. God dealt with people as they deserved. Are you blind or just stupid? Do you not see the evil going on in this world? Everywhere you put a human authority, you have corruption and death. There aren't any innocents here. I think you are just naive.

I don't know what your sins are, but you do. You are guilty and without Jesus you will stand condemned for them at judgement day. Your sin, btw, isn't just not honoring God, it's also blaspheming Him and speaking all sorts of vile things against Him. You just can't seem to keep your mouth shut about Him. You gravitate to everything I do or say about God here, just to get your mockery in. Well, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole:

Galatians 6:7

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

In one breath you tell me "Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong." Then in the next you say God doesn't give a shit about what I consider fair? I'm just supposed to shut up, obey, and worship? The list of atrocities committed by your God in the old testament is long and thoroughly revolting, and I'm just supposed to swallow it all and sing his praises?
Talk about hypocrisy!!!
You want to put a joke to rest, stop with that bullshit about wanting to sin without consequence! I know full well that actions harmful to one's self or others have consequences right here and now. No need to wait for divine justice. And the only "sin" I am committing as far as you know is the one about not worshiping God. But honestly, that's all part and parcel with my understanding that he doesn't exist. So unless you have some specifics about my "sins", your assumptions are meaningless and just make you look like a judgmental ass.
"Think for yourself. Otherwise people will think for you, to their own benefit." - Max 11:13

You're right, I couldn't commit murder and recieve forgivness 'cause I don't believe this nonsense. But I don't think were talking about murder here are we? When you talk about sin, you're talking about a whole raft of petty little "crimes" against your god. Maybe you should be more specific when you accuse Atheists of rejecting god so they can sin all they want. What do you mean by "sin" in this case? My guess is it's a bunch of meaningless social norms you'd like to subject society to (for my second guess I'll say you won't bother to answer the question).

Hitchens (who isn't my intellectual idol btw, that would be Noam Chomsky ) would be quite right to reject this deity on the grounds that he finds it's moral code abhorrent although I'm quite convinced the rejection comes, in Hitchens' case, from the aforementioned total lack of evidence.

>> ^shinyblurry:

You're right, I didn't state that very well.
There isn't anyone good. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Without Jesus, we are all hellbound. But, the good news is that God made a provision for us.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, to pay the price that we ourselves could not pay. We are saved by faith in Him, that He rose from the dead. Thereby, we are saved by the grace of God, not because of something we did.
Now, your example is not valid. You cannot manipulate the grace of God. Your life isn't guaranteed, and the only reason you're drawing breath right now is because of God. If you think you can go out and commit a bunch of crime and then ask God for forgiveness later, knowing full well what you're doing, you're sadly mistaken.
btw, at least your idol Hitchens is intellectually honest enough to admit the real reason why he won't come to God for forgiveness..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AX1CswHCkA&feature=related
skip to 6:25

>> ^shinyblurry:

Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."


In one breath you tell me "Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong." Then in the next you say God doesn't give a shit about what I consider fair? I'm just supposed to shut up, obey, and worship? The list of atrocities committed by your God in the old testament is long and thoroughly revolting, and I'm just supposed to swallow it all and sing his praises?

Talk about hypocrisy!!!

You want to put a joke to rest, stop with that bullshit about wanting to sin without consequence! I know full well that actions harmful to one's self or others have consequences right here and now. No need to wait for divine justice. And the only "sin" I am committing as far as you know is the one about not worshiping God. But honestly, that's all part and parcel with my understanding that he doesn't exist. So unless you have some specifics about my "sins", your assumptions are meaningless and just make you look like a judgmental ass.


"Think for yourself. Otherwise people will think for you, to their own benefit." - Max 11:13

Sin is the cause of evil. It causes a derangement and moral depravity in the heart and mind. From this, wicked intentions and desires arise. Sin is also the cause of death. We are born predisposed towards sin because our nature is inherently corrupt.

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?


>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sin is an immoral act which transgresses Gods law. It isn't an absence of God, it is disobedience against His laws.
>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^kir_mokum:
and according to your myth, who created evil and lucifer?

This is where you get the fascinating explanation that "evil" is the absence of god. But god didn't create evil and there was nothing in the universe before god. But god didn't create evil.
Get it? Simple right?


I didn't say sin did I? Quit changing the subject.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Sin is an immoral act which transgresses Gods law. It isn't an absence of God, it is disobedience against His laws.
>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^kir_mokum:
and according to your myth, who created evil and lucifer?

This is where you get the fascinating explanation that "evil" is the absence of god. But god didn't create evil and there was nothing in the universe before god. But god didn't create evil.
Get it? Simple right?



I didn't say sin did I? Quit changing the subject.

Sin is an immoral act which transgresses Gods law. It isn't an absence of God, it is disobedience against His laws.

>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^kir_mokum:
and according to your myth, who created evil and lucifer?

This is where you get the fascinating explanation that "evil" is the absence of god. But god didn't create evil and there was nothing in the universe before god. But god didn't create evil.
Get it? Simple right?

You're right, I didn't state that very well.

There isn't anyone good. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Without Jesus, we are all hellbound. But, the good news is that God made a provision for us.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, to pay the price that we ourselves could not pay. We are saved by faith in Him, that He rose from the dead. Thereby, we are saved by the grace of God, not because of something we did.

Now, your example is not valid. You cannot manipulate the grace of God. Your life isn't guaranteed, and the only reason you're drawing breath right now is because of God. If you think you can go out and commit a bunch of crime and then ask God for forgiveness later, knowing full well what you're doing, you're sadly mistaken.

btw, at least your idol Hitchens is intellectually honest enough to admit the real reason why he won't come to God for forgiveness..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AX1CswHCkA&feature=related

skip to 6:25



>> ^acidSpine:
Sorry but you fail hard. Entrance into Heaven is based on two things. 1. Accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. 2. Ask forgivness for your sins. Unless not doing these things counts as evil, being evil doesn't get you sent to hell. Under your "moral" system I could go out, kill a whole bunch of people, ask Jesus for forgivness and walk straight through the pearly gates.
Your Religion is a poorly constructed tissue of lies transparently constructed for controlling the masses and being a self righteous dick to people who don't agree with you. Like Hitchens, I too am glad there isn't a shred of evidence that this is true.
>> ^shinyblurry:
Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

>> ^kir_mokum:

and according to your myth, who created evil and lucifer?


This is where you get the fascinating explanation that "evil" is the absence of god. But god didn't create evil and there was nothing in the universe before god. But god didn't create evil.

Get it? Simple right?

Sorry but you fail hard. Entrance into Heaven is based on two things. 1. Accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. 2. Ask forgivness for your sins. Unless not doing these things counts as evil, being evil doesn't get you sent to hell. Under your "moral" system I could go out, kill a whole bunch of people, ask Jesus for forgivness and walk straight through the pearly gates.
Your Religion is a poorly constructed tissue of lies transparently for controlling the masses and being a self righteous dick to people who don't agree with you. Like Hitchens, I too am glad there isn't a shred of evidence that it's true.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.

This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.

John 3:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Why do you leap to that conclusion when God gave His creatures free will? That includes angels.. Surely, it is ridiculous for a created being to think they could ultimately challenge Gods authority, but the sin of pride has a way of clouding someones judgement.
>> ^MaxWilder:
Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.


Ah, yes. The sin of pride. Like when people think they would know more about the nature of God than the angels themselves.
It's simple deduction, SB. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then there simply is no battle. Free will has nothing to do with it. God could simply will Satan out of existence, or into a prison, or whatever he wants.
IF God was omnipotent, AND Satan existed, then everything Satan does is because God allows it. That would INCLUDE allowing Satan to think he had a chance of defeating an omnipotent being. AND allowing Satan to delude us imperfect mortals into turning against God, which damns our eternal souls.
So the "gift" of freewill ends up being nothing more or less than a mechanism to send conscious beings into eternal torture. And what do we call people who consciously conduct, condone, or even allow torture to exist when there was something that could stop it? We call that Evil.
And I am again led to the same conclusion. All this talk of God is nonsense. Even if he existed in the way you claim he does, he's an asshole of cosmic proportions, and I want nothing to do with him.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Why do you leap to that conclusion when God gave His creatures free will? That includes angels.. Surely, it is ridiculous for a created being to think they could ultimately challenge Gods authority, but the sin of pride has a way of clouding someones judgement.
>> ^MaxWilder:
Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.



Ah, yes. The sin of pride. Like when people think they would know more about the nature of God than the angels themselves.

It's simple deduction, SB. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then there simply is no battle. Free will has nothing to do with it. God could simply will Satan out of existence, or into a prison, or whatever he wants.

IF God was omnipotent, AND Satan existed, then everything Satan does is because God allows it. That would INCLUDE allowing Satan to think he had a chance of defeating an omnipotent being. AND allowing Satan to delude us imperfect mortals into turning against God, which damns our eternal souls.

So the "gift" of freewill ends up being nothing more or less than a mechanism to send conscious beings into eternal torture. And what do we call people who consciously conduct, condone, or even allow torture to exist when there was something that could stop it? We call that Evil.

And I am again led to the same conclusion. All this talk of God is nonsense. Even if he existed in the way you claim he does, he's an asshole of cosmic proportions, and I want nothing to do with him.