>> ^ant:
If these high tech stuff are needed, then just call in the military!

The military doesn't work well with people, even in Canada if you transfer from the MP's(Military Police) to RCMP you still have to go back to the RCMP college for 3mo to make sure you don't crack people in the head, and criminals have a tendency of using the same hollowpoint, or better yet AP rounds which seems to be their new favorite. The problem is, the average citizen has problems with APC's rolling down the street to deal with the average 'crime problem'. Let me explain a bit more. The military is slow to respond to 'criminal' activity, it's not their area of expertise. But on average up here, only about 1:10 calls for service are actually criminal related.

In Canada land, specifically out in BC, the cops aren't out like that unless oh they need to be. However, they do seem to be having problems with the gangs and other lowlifes, well...AP rounds? Check, armor plated cars? Check. Oh did I mention that it's not the police using them but the criminals? It'll be a bit before we see our own high profile shootout like you did down in the US but it'll happen.

It's not the police that get pressed into using higher firepower, it's a response to criminal action. And with that it becomes an ongoing escalation. But you can't kick it down without people helping you either, too bad most people would rather turn a blind eye to everything these days. And I can give so many examples of that, it's not even funny.

did someone order APC off their last album?
http://www.videosift.com/video/PERFECT-CIRCLE-the-noose-w-lyrics

did someone order APC from their last album?
http://www.videosift.com/video/PERFECT-CIRCLE-the-noose-w-lyrics

There are some good things about this video, but I personally think this song and video, on the whole, marks a low point for Maynard. Both in terms of the audio and the images, its always just struck me as very ham-fisted. Too easy, in my mind, especially for an artist who has done so much to re-define rock music. Tool will always be one of my favorite bands, and APC isn't bad either (though Mer de Noms is I think really the only great one of the three), but Emotive is (again, in MY mind) sort of a blight on MJK's musical career.

*nsfw lang

To my eye, the vehicle ahead of the cameraman's looks like a humvee with a shielded turret, not anything as substantial as an APC.

I doubt that explosion would have done any damage to the tank, other than knock it around a little bit.

The mine looks like it was too deep, and the resistance of the material above it, seems to have caused it to lose a lot of its kinetic energy.


It looks more like an APC not a tank.

"Barry" voted yea for "an amendment prohibiting the use of any funds appropriated in the FY2007 Department of Homeland Security Act from being used to confiscate legal firearms during states of emergency or major disasters."

I'll give him some credit, but also: Big Deal. He never would've come up with it on his own, and anyway, it's crap from both sides of the aisle. The 2nd Amendment already covers 'states of emergency'.

This is an unfortunate feature of nearly every politician. Even the conservatives haven't been very conservative during the course of my lifetime. I don't agree with this approach either, but that's not to say that throwing money at a problem doesn't get results sometimes. Counting this against him is not unlike accusing him of only having two arms. When a three-armed candidate surfaces, then I'll care that the other candidates only have two.

I agree with you. But conservatives failing to be conservative and liberals being liberals are still two different animals.

>> ^quantumushroom:
He uses accusations of "racism" whenever he loses an argument (tho not exclusively a Marxist principle).

I've seen these accusations before but I've not seen the evidence. Perhaps you can show some? I'll continue to consider it partisan nonsense in the meantime.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama_invokes_rush_limbaugh_in.html

Here's the latest kerfuffle, Obama's campaign rearranging Rush Limbaugh's parodies to make him sound like a racist. Partisan? Yeah, the party that freed the slaves versus the party of Je$$e Jack$on.

And let's not forget this, Obama speaking: The choice is clear. Most of all we can choose between hope and fear. It is going to be very difficult for Republicans to run on their stewardship of the economy or their outstanding foreign policy. We know what kind of campaign they’re going to run. They’re going to try to make you afraid. They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?

Poor-me racially-charged victimhood from a man who is an American success story by ANY standard.

>> ^quantumushroom:
I safely predict Orwellian hate crimes and hate speech laws will strengthen under his rule, the closest to outright banning free speech we'll have.

I don't see any basis for this statement except perhaps the idea that 'them Negroes is always conspirin' against us good white folk.' I did notice that Obama voted against a bill to amend the constitution to make "Flag Desecration" illegal. That's big free speech support right there if you ask me. [ref]

I have said nothing here that indicates Obama's race factors into whether or not he supports hate crime legislation. It's more a left-wing thing, not a race thing. Hate crime = thoughtcrime, and I don't see Barry or any other left-winger challenging the constitutionally-unsound hate crimes laws. The right, as usual, will just be accused of being racists by the left when they point out the emperor wears no clothes.


>> ^quantumushroom:
A question for Obama supporters: let's say he gets his way and increases taxes on only "the wealthy". Do the middle and lower classes really think they won't suffer any adverse effects by having their employers' earnings slammed?

That all depends on what is done with the money. Not waging a 100 year war with no goals would be a good start.

McCain wasn't referring to 100 years of war, it's a deliberate distortion. He meant something along the lines (I think) of North and South Korea, establishing a lasting military presence there. And yes, I like the idea of B-52s less than 10 minutes from Tehran.

"What is done" with the money, I think you already know, most of it will be pissed away by graft and corruption, bailouts, paying for ongoing failures like the Wars on Poverty, Drugs, and yes, even Terror. I don't see why the Fire Chief of Speckville, Indiana needs a million-dollar APC to defend against terrorists.

There is nothing magical that happens when you give your money to the government. You and I know the value of a dollar, and I trust a dollar in the hands of the average citizen will go much farther than it will in a politician's budget. That's the essence of libertarianism. BTW, it's YOUR dollar!


Obama is nearly a lifelong member of a "church" that promotes Black Liberation Theology. Few things lie closer to a believers' hearts than their faith, whatever it may be. How is it Barry has to disavow his church? Could it be because it's backwards and against not only basic Xtian principles but American principles?

Was a member of said church for less than half his life, actually. If you read up on Trinity United, you'll see they've promoted a number of different ideas about race interaction over the decades as the times and leadership have changed. So, too, has "Black Liberation Theology" changed its implications with time. I know you like to put -ism and -ist labels on everyone and everything, but sometimes it's not that simple and you need full sentences, paragraphs or even pages to explain something adequately.

You and others wish to blast Palin on the "Sambo' remark, which was a fabrication (aka a LIE). You've already decided she's a racist based on something that didn't even happen. Now you expect me and every other person who has a problem with Obama's radical, racist church to simply forget he was a member for over 2 decades and gave them 22K? I'm not saying Obama shares all of Wright's wacky beliefs, but then if McCain said "Bless You" when David Duke sneezed, we both know the level of liberal hysteria that would ensue.

Since you've not attributed this quote, I'm not going to address it. Without knowing if it's from a reliable source or just some conservapedia article, I've really got nothing to go on.

Fair enough. http://www.publicallies.org/site/c.liKUL3PNLvF/b.3960231/

Obama's relations to this organization.


>> ^quantumushroom:
What I'm addressing here has nothing to do with why people support Obama. Facts and logic are out the window, Obamites are electrified by these vague messages of "hope" and "change" or still part of the "Anybody but Bush" mindset.

There is some validity to what you say here. Obama is a charismatic and exciting guy and many people have not looked beyond that. It's important to acknowledge that this is the failing of those people and not of Obama, just as it is your failing to make so many false assumptions about him based on his party, race and background rather than documented facts.

You recognize that it is a failing of the people to not know their candidate. Yes, I will blame the American people if Obama is elected, just as you will blame the other half if McCain is elected.

Yes, I have some assumptions about Obama, but they're based on the many quotes he's made as well as the considerable information about his background, his (in)experience, the company he keeps and his voting record (to the left of Ted Kennedy). I personally don't give a damn about his racial background; if he supported conservative principles with the same thin resume, I'd have a serious choice to make whether he would be better than McCain.

Thanks to all who responded. Yes MINK, you're the Master of Europe and I am at your mercy. You and I have written enough to make a book.

Have you heard APC preform when the levee breaks? It's great, not as theatrical as this one, but good. Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INSoNZSjL9k&feature=related

I have been hanging on to an old APC 450 that quit working a couple of years ago, and I've been thinking of doing this with it.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
My uncle was a driver... M60, I believe. He was stationed in Europe and I do remember him stating that the tanks would mangle the old cobblestone roads a bit.
arsenault, I thought the BFV was a hybrid of sorts. It carries a small group of infantry, doesn't it? But still provides a bit more firepower than the average APC?

Well the M60 is no longer in use by the active military. I believe, however, that a small amount of Reserve or Guard Armor units may still be using them, though i doubt it. Anyways, The M60 was BEAST. It is one of the few, if not the only MBT (main battle tank - hey MGR most civvies don't know these acronyms) that had a secondary INDEPENDENT turret on it. The top of the tracks on that sucker were about 5 or 6 feet. I still don't think its any bigger than the M88 though.

Anyways, cobblestone roads are nothing more than bricks in the dirt, and are usually very old, and were not built to withstand heavy traffic loads.

As far as the BFV begin a hybrid.. well your right and wrong. The BFV as itself could carry troops in the back, but was also capable of independently fighting. MOST are outfitted with a 7.62 coaxial machine gun, capable of 900 rounds a minute, and as a primary weapon, the 25MM (MM = millimeter) Bushmaster. AHhhhhhh what a beautiful thing that was... Oh, whats that? You want pictures? No problem. On the left is the 7.62 and on the right, the 25MM on the left. These are training rounds, as there are many different types of ammo, all far to expensive to train with.

Anywho, the version I was on was a BSFV (Bradley Stinger Fighting Vehicle) We had room in back for 2 soldiers (the reload / Stinger Missile team) the driver, Track Commander, and the Gunner. The infantry version carries the basic operation crew of three (driver TC and gunner) plus 6 troops in back. (that one is of My Bradley - you'll notice the other seat behind this slacker. Thats he only other seat back there. The other side is occupied by a Stinger missile rack.)

There is also what we call a fister. Don't ask me what the real acronym is, i couldn't tell you. It was a BFV outfitted with a slew of gadgetry for use by forward observers for people like my brother here^, (what we affectionately call cannon-cockers) the artillery.


Ok heres the M88 Lifting my Bradley as promised.

"I dont know about this specific vehicle, but the new APC's looks more like a tank, take a look at the CV90, for example:
http://www.norvetnet.no/gfx/bilder/isaf/isaf-cv90_small.jpg"


ISAF = NATO forces. Definitely NOT American. Not only that, but if it were, it would have started with "M" - When's the last time something in the American military didn't?

My uncle was a driver... M60, I believe. He was stationed in Europe and I do remember him stating that the tanks would mangle the old cobblestone roads a bit.

arsenault, I thought the BFV was a hybrid of sorts. It carries a small group of infantry, doesn't it? But still provides a bit more firepower than the average APC?

>> ^BicycleRepairMan:
Something like the M113 would be an APC. The BFV is not a carrier, but a fighting vehicle.
I dont know about this specific vehicle, but the new APC's looks more like a tank, take a look at the CV90, for example:
http://www.norvetnet.no/gfx/bilder/isaf/isaf-cv90_small.jpg

First, I offer this as evidence that I know what I'm talking about. Yes Thats me. A younger me, but me. So about as much proof as I can offer with out throwing a years worth of pictures at you.

Ok I have no idea what that vehicle is. It's not American, and probably isn't bad-ass enough to have been covered in my Armored Vehicle Recognition class.
What makes a "tank" a Tank, is the size of the barrel and rounds, not whether or not it has tracks.

And as far as road damage - No it does not damage the roads. Like I said, i used to drive that exact vehicle, and I've seen the Ambrams as well, there is no damage. Even the M88 wrecker. You'll recognize it as the vehicle that pulled down the Hussein statue. It is the largest tracked vehicle that I have seen. Get back at me later once i get my portable HD back from my buddy ill show you an M88 lifting my BFV.


The tracks are not just metal bands. Each track shoe has a track pad made of rubber. The most damage it does is leave black scuff marks everywhere in the motor pool that "Joe" has to sweep up on Friday before we could go home.

i was more referring to the bit where he rotates right, the tracks go in opposite directions, carve up the road, and leave 2 dark splodges which will be potholes in 2 days. No?

In reply to this comment by gorgonheap:
Actually vehicles that run on tracks do not cause that much damage to a road as you might think. The weight of the vehicle is spread out fairly well along the treads and as long as it's not going too fast wouldn't do much more then a snowmobile.

Not to say there isn't any damage, I'm sure it's worse then a car with rubber tires but I've seen the national guard run tracks over pavement without hardly any evidence that one has been there.

In reply to this comment by MINK:
do they repair the road after fucking it up with tank tracks? (serious question)

>> ^MINK:
do they repair the road after fucking it up with tank tracks? (serious question)


Actually vehicles that run on tracks do not cause that much damage to a road as you might think. The weight of the vehicle is spread out fairly well along the treads and as long as it's not going too fast wouldn't do much more then a snowmobile.

Not to say there isn't any damage, I'm sure it's worse then a car with rubber tires but I've seen the national guard run tracks over pavement without hardly any evidence that one has been there.