@enoch,

I don't have any opinion on what Hedges says because I didn't take the time to listen to him...

Here was my bigger take away, an article posted by RT that is criticising negative press for Russia immediately gets filtered into my 99% likely hood of being misleading, either by outright lies or more often lies of omission.

Now, that filter got bypassed a bit seeing a recommendation from someone I deemed thoughtful on things. So, I went and did a 5 second google on the subject and found red flags immediately, so then I stopped again.

And Noam Chomsky has fallen off the rails IMHO. He's never going to lie, and he is incredibly intelligent, well reasoned and thoroughly knowledgeable. The catch is he is also biased in the sense of presenting everything he says over the last decade plus through the filter of American exceptionalism. He'll present mountains of accurate and compelling evidence of everything wrong about American foreign policy and the horrible impacts it has all around the world. Trouble is, he'll maybe give 2 sentences on the pre-American period or the alternative of American inaction.

In fact, as I wrote this I was going to blindly espouse that Chomsky's world view would council in favour of Clinton's inaction on Rwanda even with full hindsight. That prompted me to google for Chomsky's actual opinion on it, which led immediately to the fact that Chomsky wrote the forward for a book denying that the victims of Rwandan genocide were Tutsi but instead that they were in fact it's architects...

@bcglorf @Fairbs

I used to hold the same view on military intervention. If only it were applied impartially by a nation or alliance, then any would be genocidal leader would be deterred by threat of imprisonment or death.

However we all know that in reality this is stymied by the lack of altruistic intentions, the political dimensions of risking soldiers' lives in foreign wars and the unintended consequences of even fully altruistic intervention.

I can't really argue against there being a case for intervention in Rwanda or after Saddam gassed the Kurds.

A sufficiently large force by the US/NATO would have probably deterred the Hutu militias in Rwanda from waging their genocide. Had the international community demanded Kurdish sovereignty from Iraq following the gas attacks, Saddam would have probably accepted it coming off the Iran-Iraq war for fear of being attacked by Iran while he waged a civil war.

In either case I can also play devil's advocate. Would the inevitable Tutsi government set up by intervening forces in Rwanda have been seen as legitimate by its people? Would reconciliation really have been effective if it was effectively imposed by outside powers? Would civil war have reignited? Even with how things turned out in the absence, we know that Kagame's government is increasingly authoritarian and has supported militias like M23 in Congo against the remnants of Hutu militias which has itself been a source of much death and violence. In the case of the Kurds, what if calls for cession resonated in the Kurdish population in Syria and Iran and the opposition turned violent in those countries?

In most cases, while hypothetical intervention may appear the clear moral ground I just can't be certain the outcome would have been better. In the case of Rwanda, probably, a large portion of the 500,000 lives lost would have been spared. In the case of the Iraqi Kurds, no intervention would have pre-empted the initial gas attack, however inciting the situation could have resulted in more people dying in violent struggle and resistance.

I hate to get on Bill Nye, and I agree with the need for more foreign aid even. I must protest non the less about war being a minor factor in poverty and related deaths. Blaming the millions that die of starvation and malnutrition in Africa on that alone is little different than saying that the millions who starved under Stalin and Mao could have been saved by foreign aid.

Even when there isn't active warfare in the most poverty ridden places of the world, there are warlords and criminals ruling the region through starvation and actively redirecting what little foreign aid there is to themselves and away from those that do not support them. Simply sending more food and money to places like Somalia or North Korea does nothing to help the people there, and if the aid is naively sent blind to whomever holds power it actually makes things WORSE by strengthening the very monsters responsible for the suffering. I'd like to believe our apathy here is the biggest problem as much as the next guy, but the reality is that there are also people local to the problem involved first hand in perpetuating and profiting from human suffering. If we refuse to admit that there are instances were 'aid' necessarily takes the form of shooting the bad guys then we are doomed to watching as the next genocide plays out, as we did for the Rwandan Tutsis, Iraqi Kurds and Shias and countless others.

Why is the concept of a person belonging to a minority also being a racist so mind boggling for some people. The two are not mutally exclusive. The Tutsi and Hutu are both black...

>> ^quantumushroom:

Listen moonbat, no one gives a fuck whether your lame questions were answered to your satisfaction, least of all me. liberalism is a mental disorder.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.



A Mental Disorder is definitely on display here. I leave to the readers to determine whose mentality is more disordered.

Listen moonbat, no one gives a fuck whether your lame questions were answered to your satisfaction, least of all me. liberalism is a mental disorder.


>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.

Listen yogi, you may not believe this, but I've observed your posts for some time now. While I'm loathe to label anyone with permanence, most of the time you act like a hothead and internet badass. I've seen you disrespect sifters who would probably agree with you they don't like me. I don't really know marinara and doubt he agrees with much of what I have to say, but he was kind enough to defend me against PC nonsense.

It's not my job to offer you an attitude adjustment, only suggest one. You can be passionate without being in ATTACK MODE at all times.

I have EVERY right to call out sh1tbirds like GNOMESANE. Race his nothing to do with it, especially on Judge Judy. Per legacy's post, people of ALL kinds game the system. GNOMESANE is hardly an exception. The clown has no concept of self-responsibility or wrongdoing.

The System itself is sh1t, it's morphed into something beyond control and accountability and it's bankrupting all of us. Do you understand that for every GNOMESANE, someone else who deserves help is denied?

This is the sift. Your attempts to make things personal are a waste of time.

lv,

qm





In reply to this comment by Yogi:
>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.

If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?

You're a piece of shit QM.

Listen yogi, you may not believe this, but I've observed your posts for some time now. While I'm loathe to label anyone with permanence, most of the time you act like a hothead and internet badass. I've seen you disrespect sifters who would probably agree with you they don't like me. I don't really know marinara and doubt he agrees with much of what I have to say, but he was kind enough to defend me against PC nonsense.

It's not my job to offer you an attitude adjustment, only suggest one. You can be passionate without being in ATTACK MODE at all times.

I have EVERY right to call out sh1tbirds like GNOMESANE. Race his nothing to do with it, especially on Judge Judy. Per legacy's post, people of ALL kinds game the system. GNOMESANE is hardly an exception. The clown has no concept of self-responsibility or wrongdoing.

The System itself is sh1t, it's morphed into something beyond control and accountability and it's bankrupting all of us. Do you understand that for every GNOMESANE, someone else who deserves help is denied?

This is the sift. Your attempts to make things personal are a waste of time.

lv,

qm


>> ^Yogi:

>> ^quantumushroom:
I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?


Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.
If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?
You're a piece of shit QM.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



Ya know what welfare also pays for? The old lady across town who is starving. The children who don't get breakfast in the mornings so they spend all day not being able to pay attention in class.

If you're against something you can find examples of it not working or working poorly, especially a large and complex system known as welfare. So I guess because someone is exploiting the system everyone who relies on that system should be tossed off it. Fuck them right?

You're a piece of shit QM.

>> ^quantumushroom:

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.
Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.
Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.

>> ^Boise_Lib:
>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?



I notice you didn't answer my question. I believe that the Hutu and Tutsi belong to the same race. I said nothing about racism, yet you came back with a, "Wah, He called me a racist" defense. Typical wing-nut deflection.

I feel guilty for all the people who bust their asses at work, then have their money seized and pissed away on shitbirds like this, so lefties can allay their manufactured guilt at events two centuries old.

Three years of "kollij" and GNOMESANE still can't speak proper English.

Be PROUD, Liberal. You made him.



>> ^Boise_Lib:

>> ^quantumushroom:
"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?


Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?

>> ^quantumushroom:

"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".
Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?
What's left?
>> ^Boise_Lib:
Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?



Why are you bringing up racism? Guilty conscience?

"Vermin" is easier to type than "parasite".

Judging by skin color is racist.
Judging by content of character is also racist?

What's left?

>> ^Boise_Lib:

Vermin?
The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.
This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.
What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?

Vermin?

The Nazi's called Jewish people rats, the Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide); and the wingnuts called anyone who disagreed with spending trillions to invade and occupy a country, which did not attack us, un-american and un-patriotic.

This guys not too bright, but calling people vermin crosses a line.

What's your definition of vermin? Anyone you dislike?

>> ^Lodurr:
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find evidence in history of a war caused by religion. I've looked (hint: not the Crusades). Athenians fought Spartans, Americans fought Americans, Hutus murdered Tutsis. War does just fine without religion.

Religion is never the obvious cause, but is constantly an underlying current that drives the wars. India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, US/Afghanistan/Iraq, to name a few that are recent / ongoing.

Religion is a unifying force, binding the followers of the same faith into one group, but is also a dividing force, separating different groups of believers from one-another. It is a lot easier to kill the "other", which is what someone of a different religion is automatically.

Nationality is second to that, but that is based on a physical fact (land), and not a theoretical one (my invisible sky-daddy is better than yours).