I agree with most of your last paragraph, namely that greedy and inhumane capitalism causes huge amounts of damage (arguably more so than religious ideologies), but that is not the discussion here. What, pray tell, is wrong (both morally and factually) with strongly denouncing Islam?

As for that appalling, intellectually dishonest hackjob of an article you link to (which of course uses the term "Islamophobia" non-ironically, displaying it's dishonesty from the get-go), PZ Myers expresses better than I would* how such atheist-bashing fails hard, with the bonus of putting Sam Harris in his place viz. "the war on terror" (Harris lost most of his credibility for me when he defended racial/religious profiling, and Dawkins when he took the wrong side in the feminism debate, but I digress).

If you really agree with the lines you quoted, you might want to read a history book or, you know, watch the news. I would snidely suggest you go live the life of a woman, atheist or homosexual (to name only a few) in a place ruled by religion if you still adhered to such a belief, but that would be meanness beyond even me.

*http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/04/03/both-wrong-both-right/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/04/12/why-should-anyone-have-to-read-your-goofy-holy-book/

PZ Myers has a great response to this criticism: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/03/29/john-logsdon-hits-the-big-time/

The Myer Christmas window has been a tradition for many (57? The first one was 1956, the year of the Melbourne Olympics) years, but I'm sure I've heard of stores in other cities doing it too... a bit of googling says that in New York Macy's among others have Christmas window displays, and that there are similar displays in London. I would be entirely unsurprised if the Myer display drew inspiration from M&S actually...

Now I just want a Despicable Me Yellow Guy vs Mike Myers movie

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

I think you two have different meanings for 'spirituality'.
jonny is referring to the brain euphoria you get when communing deeply with those you love, nature, art and/or the universe; the euphoria you get playing music, dancing or experiencing a psychedelic drug trip; that weird and beautiful feeling in your brain that everything and everyone is connected. For me it feels like invisible tendrils shooting out and intermingling with other peoples invisible tendrils. This type of 'spirituality' is a brain state - a feeling - not a supernatural force.
I believe you are speaking about 'spirituality' as a supernatural force, dealing with spirits and deities.
IMO, we are all spiritual. When you go deep into playing guitar and singing, you are in touch with your humanity. When you are connecting with Lann on a deep level, you two are in touch with your humanity. We all seek out those feelings of connectedness in a variety of ways.
Religion does activate the same part of the brain that creates the euphoria I speak of. If you want, I can dig up an article that goes into more detail on this. I think this is why religion has traditionally had problems with music, dance, sex and drugs. Spiritual competition.


Using a hocus-pocus word to describe being a social animal is not helping. There are no definitions of spirit, spiritual, or spirituality that do not rely on some belief in the supernatural.

Well, shit. That napkin makes a persuasive argument. All hail the Napkin!
>> ^notarobot:

>> ^gwiz665:
Spirituality is a hoax.
Faith is a virus.

You're dead wrong! I can destroy all your anti-religion arguments with this image behind this link: Atheists beware! <-- click it and know the true religion!

The cave only contains what you bring with you.

Sadly that video was dead so I couldn't see it. I would like to ask how you actually go about verifying spirituality.

Spirituality may be a real experience, but that does not mean that it is actually real. Paranoia is a real experience too.

Faith is a virus in many ways (obviously not biologically), but it acts as one. That said. you can say that for any meme.

Twisting religion and/or faith for "evil" is easy - anything can be twisted. The fundamental problem is that at the very core, religion is, well, bad. It's detrimental for the human race. We would be in a better place without it. By no means perfect, other factors are at work, tribalism, fanaticism, greed, etc. but nonetheless, it would be a better place, because you could not justify your evil actions through a supreme being. Do you realize how dangerous it is when someone is absolutely convinced they are right? Skepticism is a healthy attribute in a benign society. Spirituality (moreso religion and faith) is detriment to that.

When people argue "oh, look at all the culture and art that religion inspired", I think that's a bunk argument. The art and culture is there in spite of the religion smothering it. The reason all the classic art is about religion, is because churches leeched the money of everyone and therefor were the only ones who could pay for great works of art. If Catholicism had not had a stranglehold on Europe for some 1000 years, the art of the whole period would have been far more varied and fantastic.

I'm ashamed of my fellow man not growing up to face what's really out there, because it's crazy enough as it is without lunacy on top of it.
>> ^jonny:

>> ^gwiz665:
Spirituality is a hoax.
Faith is a virus.
Spirituality is a real, verifiable human experience. There are many paths to having such an experience, some of them involving religion, ritual and/or psychoactive drugs. However much we might disdain the belief in some bearded man in the sky as the source of such experiences, it would be absurd to deny their existence, power, or importance. Religion provides the most accessible path for many people.
I'm not sure what you mean by that second sentence. Do you mean faith in general, i.e., belief in something of which you have no direct knowledge or evidence? Or do you mean faith in the existence of Jehovah, the divinity of Jesus, or some other specific religious doctrine? I'd rather avoid getting into an epistemological argument, but the fact is that everyone relies on faith to a greater or lesser extent. More importantly, though, is just how useful faith can be. No one would argue that it can't be twisted to serve "evil" ends, sometimes without the twister or twisted even being aware of it. But to disregard the usefulness of faith entirely based on its misuse and abuse is ridiculous. It's like telling people not to have sex because of the potential negative consequences.
When I look at religion, I don't understand why it is blamed for so many of the atrocities humans have committed upon each other. The deeper cause is (fundamentalist) tribalism, and it comes in many forms - religious, ethnic, geographic, ideological, etc. All of these have been used as "psychic levers" to inspire people to act in ways they never would otherwise. Even in a hypothetical parallel world in which religion and belief in gods doesn't exist, all of the horrors of which humans are capable would still be found. I'd like to think the artistic output inspired by religion and faith would have other sources as well, but I'm not completely certain of it.

>> ^gwiz665:

Spirituality is a hoax.
Faith is a virus.

Spirituality is a real, verifiable human experience. There are many paths to having such an experience, some of them involving religion, ritual and/or psychoactive drugs. However much we might disdain the belief in some bearded man in the sky as the source of such experiences, it would be absurd to deny their existence, power, or importance. Religion provides the most accessible path for many people.

I'm not sure what you mean by that second sentence. Do you mean faith in general, i.e., belief in something of which you have no direct knowledge or evidence? Or do you mean faith in the existence of Jehovah, the divinity of Jesus, or some other specific religious doctrine? I'd rather avoid getting into an epistemological argument, but the fact is that everyone relies on faith to a greater or lesser extent. More importantly, though, is just how useful faith can be. No one would argue that it can't be twisted to serve "evil" ends, sometimes without the twister or twisted even being aware of it. But to disregard the usefulness of faith entirely based on its misuse and abuse is ridiculous. It's like telling people not to have sex because of the potential negative consequences.

When I look at religion, I don't understand why it is blamed for so many of the atrocities humans have committed upon each other. The deeper cause is (fundamentalist) tribalism, and it comes in many forms - religious, ethnic, geographic, ideological, etc. All of these have been used as "psychic levers" to inspire people to act in ways they never would otherwise. Even in a hypothetical parallel world in which religion and belief in gods doesn't exist, all of the horrors of which humans are capable would still be found. I'd like to think the artistic output inspired by religion and faith would have other sources as well, but I'm not completely certain of it.

WTF is Myers' problem? He sounds like yet another fanatical reactionary atheist that can't stand the thought that someone who has neither belief nor interest in any god might still acknowledge the inherent spirituality of humans; can't stand the thought that people might come together for some social reason based on nothing else than that shared recognition. Sadly, but not surprisingly, every comment I read on Myers' blog reflected exactly the same kind of narrow-mindedness.

Alain says it best himself:

In a world beset by fundamentalists of believing and secular varieties, it must be possible to balance a rejection of religious faith with a selective reverence for religious rituals and concepts.

I came in here to get angry, damnit! Bah. Well, P.Z. Myers is a cock. How's that?

*commercial>> ^ghark:

it's also a commercial

>> ^peggedbea:

i'm upvoting only for the discussion here.
i'm an atheist. but i'm not a passionate one.
i normally really like chris hedge's.
i normally really don't like sam harris, or pz myers for that matter. i used to really really dislike hitchen's (the whole pro-iraq war thing) but i find him more palletable now. i think hedge's nailed what exactly it is about those men that rubs me the wrong way, it's the haughtiness.

but... this clip is full of straw men. it's beneath hedge's. feels like an advertisement for his book. but instead of making me want to read it, it makes me want to throw it at him for trying to sell shit with straw men and inflammatory-ish-ness. he can do better.


@peggedbea I have to completely agree, I've seen some really excellent arguments and speeches made by Hedges, so I was a bit saddened to see the over-generalized arguments he makes in this advert. Reading the quotes @dystopianfuturetoday posted (and I've seen the debates) leads me to believe there are some elements of truth in Hedges argument, however the way he presents it completely misses out the detail, where important distinctions are made.

i'm upvoting only for the discussion here.

i'm an atheist. but i'm not a passionate one.
i normally really like chris hedge's.
i normally really don't like sam harris, or pz myers for that matter. i used to really really dislike hitchen's (the whole pro-iraq war thing) but i find him more palletable now. i think hedge's nailed what exactly it is about those men that rubs me the wrong way, it's the haughtiness.



but... this clip is full of straw men. it's beneath hedge's. feels like an advertisement for his book. but instead of making me want to read it, it makes me want to throw it at him for trying to sell shit with straw men and inflammatory-ish-ness. he can do better.

I don't know how good this man's positions are on other topics, but when it comes to atheism and anti-theism, he spouts such a load of ignorant nonsense it makes my brain hurt. I could rant on about strawman arguments, gross misrepresentation, etc etc, but PZ Myers says it all much better than I could:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/chris_hedges_wastes_everyones.php

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/what_the_f_is_wrong_with_chris.php