You should pick up some of the later stuff. Some of those graphic novels are awesome. I like "the gift", "all his engines", "pandemonium", and "hard time".

>> ^ponceleon:
Actually, I disagree with Budzos... I enjoyed the movie a lot more than the comic. I found the comics very hokey and disjointed in comparison, whereas the movie really encapsulated what I would LOVE religion to be. To me Catholicism is empty just because it has claims to relics, spells, and traditions which are ineffective in our world but pretend to be powerful in the way they are presented in this movie.
Religion would kick ass if it was based on a reality like this... I'm not sure how else to say it, but religion (and Catholicism specifically) is like people playing a childish game in which they are trying to imagine a world like this movie portrays.
To get more specific, I liked the explanations and backgrounds of the characters much better in the movie than in the comics. The comic has John Constantine being an ex glam-rocker who is slightly psychic/mystic and who's "damnation" doesn't come from an attempted suicide as in the movie, but rather a botched exorcism which is just kinda stupid. The whole suicide thing is really well done in the reimagining in the movie and makes a lot more sense.
Papa midnight is another character which is vastly improved in the movie. In the book, he seems more like a reject from Live and Let Die, a blaxploitation stereotype, whereas in the movie they really brought home the idea of someone that lives between two allegiances.
As for the use of "guns" and other 007ny stuff, I really thought it worked a lot better than the way they present him in the books. Frankly I'd rather have Constantine wielding a holy shotgun with blessed bullets than looking for a tape of his music video in his trashy apartment.
I'll admit that I only got through three of the graphic novels before I stopped, but I just feel that the changes made to Constantine's development improve vastly over what I saw in the books. As for making him American, I hate Keanu in most of his performances and I thought he really brought it for this one. I was pleasantly surprised and this movie remains one of my all-time favs.

@rottenseed
I think that's somewhat debatable. Etymology doesn't tell the whole story of the inception of a word or phrase. I at least can find some sources that suggest the opposite is true: http://ebookbrowse.com/caliban-and-the-witch-pdf-d19978416

"Several authors have also uncovered the fact that there was a definite queer element to many of the sects concerned. Almost one thousand years ago, these people were expressing a unity of struggle which survives in broken form even today, no matter how much assimilated queers, career women and left-wing defenders of heterosexuality may insist otherwise."

This author adds the following notation for the source as well: "10 While not a scholarly work, Arthur Evans’ Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture: A Radical View of Western Civilization and Some of the People It Has Tried to Destroy (Fag Rag Books, 1978) is the earliest sympathetic formulation of this argument that I know of; more recent and more scholarly works include John Boswell’s Christianity, social tolerance, and homosexuality : gay people in Western Europe from the beginning of the Christian era to the fourteenth century (University of Chicago Press, c1980) and Jeffrey Richards’ Sex, dissidence, and damnation : minority groups in the Middle Ages (Routledge 1991)."

----------

Solid evidence? Hardly. But it does seem, based on what I'm seeing in the research, that the connection is at least a possibility.

>> ^Crosswords:

...Or that a bunch of butthurt culturally isolated ignorami, that think parsley flecks in mashed potatoes is an exotic abomination that will surely lead to the steps of damnation, have latched onto a red herring that's being trolled behind the USS GOP...


Dear God, I'm stealing the mashed potatoes line. It's frakin epic.

Unfortunately I don't think any amount of truth or logic will ever convince the moron masses otherwise. He's got a Muslim name, he's black and he didn't have an upbringing that was as culturally isolated as 85% of Americans. The portion of the American population that believes this horse crap will continue to believe it because it validates their view that Obama isn't American.

I don't know whether 'The Donald' actually believes it or not. He's trying to pursue an option, true or not, that he thinks will destroy his competitor's image, something trump finds very important as he's built a financial empire out of image.

So when I sit and think what's more believable, that Obama has been involved in a decades long conspiracy that spans across several state and federal agencies for the sole purpose of lying his way into the American presidency. Or that a bunch of butthurt culturally isolated ignorami, that think parsley flecks in mashed potatoes is an exotic abomination that will surely lead to the steps of damnation, have latched onto a red herring that's being trolled behind the USS GOP. I'll go with the latter option.

@Truckchase, @messenger: Those that have followed my posts on here know that I'm firmly in your camp in general. In this particular case, I think shouldn't be too hard on what is an obvious "rant," and not really an attempt at reasoned debate, or what have you. It's intended purpose seems to be the psychological benefit of atheists, not spreading reason. It's basically an atheist circle-jerk, and that's fine for what it is. I actually felt for his frustration. I've been there.

However, since I'm really interested in how we can change minds, I'm more interested in your discussion than the video itself. I think one of the traps we fall into is assuming that they're attitude is consistently coming from a fear of damnation. I agree it exists, but more often I find this equally "superior" attitude coming from them. They seem to act more saddened that I would choose to miss out on this great joy, than fearful of the punishment their god would doll out. The loudmouths are a completely different story. I'm talking more about the common, quiet, friendly, generous, and quite often otherwise reasonable religious folk I usually encounter. While our study bibles might be heavier than their pamphlets, they don't usually come across as utterly incompetent, fearful individuals. More frequently they've just been sold on the happy angle.

It's easy to turn someone against a tyrant. The perceived benevolent ruler is harder to overthrow. Personally, I find the best way to turn someone on the Christian God, is to make them actually read Leviticus. I find most of them haven't.

@Truckchase

You and I agree, I think. I especially like what (I believe) your quote is getting at, which is that we need to understand our enemy. I don't think we do. If we did, then we'd never get mad at them, nor even frustrated like a teacher at students who aren't catching on to the easy stuff. We would understand where they were coming from and why they continue to oppose us. Anyone who still thinks that a logical argument is going to achieve anything is as ignorant in their beliefs as the faithers are. The fact that we have no idea how to bridge the intellectual gap shows we don't understand their motivations.

For example, let's say this rigorous fixation on creationism stems from the belief that not to accept the bible as the literal truth will result in their eternal damnation in hell. If that's the case, then telling them their bible is provably false isn't going to wash with them -- they're going to believe it anyway because they don't want to go to hell. If, on the other hand, we disprove that belief instead, the others will fall like a house of cards. Interestingly, accepting that that belief is not true doesn't result in damnation, by definition.

I know...this put me right back into that game.

Also, this reminds me of the band Opeth's album "Damnation"

I will never be happy knowing that others are lost or being punished FOREVER while I enjoy my "heaven". This is the same for ANY God or "heaven". I would tell that God this, "Go **** yourself".

Many people are using archaic concepts to discuss heaven & hell that are so various in use among different sects that it is almost futile to even try seriously talking about them. Some pick an extreme and blast ‘religion’ for saying an unprincipled wastrel who ‘converts’ is given eternal bliss, while a decent man who never heard of God is condemned to everlasting torment. Any fair-minded person would balk at such a stilted portrayal of judgment.

I’d suggest that condemnation of “religion” (or specifically Judeo-Christianity) based on these flawed positions is not fair or accurate. People are talking about God’s justice literally with pitchfork devils and halo angels as their framework. Most serious-minded persons talk about heaven & hell more properly in terms of the peace that comes with being aligned with God or the failed potential that comes with distance from God.

Put yourself in God’s shoes and say you are trying to maintain a realm of harmony and understanding. Someone comes along who stridently disagrees with how you’re doing things to the point where they basically are in open rebellion. In such a circumstance, would it not be reasonable to offer them a place where they could be happier since they are unhappy with things as they are? Would not such a place by necessity involve some degree of separation?

Ultimately, a person chooses their own degree of judgment based on their alignment with God. Both heaven (alignment with God) and hell (distance from God) are places where a person can reach the highest degree of happiness they can. Obviously (from a religious viewpoint) a person aligned with God has a much higher capacity for increasing happiness. Likewise, a person not aligned with God would only drift further and further away. On an eternal timescale, one side offers an ever-increasing degree of limitless happiness while the other offers only the literal damnation of halted progress.

I’m not saying all religions ascribe to this exact explanation, but it is a far more accurate discussion of the concept of ‘heaven and hell’ than what was offered by either the goombah who called into the radio show, or the caricature so lambasted by the hosts.

Big A, little A, bouncing B
The cats in the cupboard but it can't catch me.

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to ba yourself, by christ do you think they'll let you?
They're out to get

Hello, hello, hello, this is the Lord God, can you hear?
Hellfire and damnation's what I've got for you down there
On earth I have ambassadors, archbishop, vicar, pope
We'll blind you with morality, you'd best abandon any hope,
We're telling you you'd better pray cos you were born in sin
Right from the start we'll build a cell and then we'll lock you in
We sit in holy judgement condemning those that stray
We offer our forgiveness, but first we'll make you pay

Hello, hello, hello, now here's a massage from your queen
As figurehead of the status quo I set the social scene
I'm most concerned about my people, I want to give them peace
So I'm making sure they stay in line with my army and police
My prisons and my mental homes have ever open doors
For those amongst my subjects who dare to ask for more
Unruliness and disrespect are things I can't allow
So I'll see the peasants grovel if they refuse to bow

Palaces for kings and queens, mansions for the rich
Protection for the wealthy, defence of privilege
They've learnt the ropes through history, engaged in civil war
Fighting for the ruling classes in their battle against the poor
Round every other corner stands 1984
Guardian of the future, they will implement the law
He's there as a grim reminder that no matter what you do
Big brothers system's always there with his beady eyes on you
From God to local police, in home and street and school
They've got your name and number while you've just got their rule
We've got to look for methods to undermine those powers
It's time to change the tables. The future must be ours

Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you're the only you
No one else has got your eyes to see the things you see
It's up to you to change your life and my life's up to me
The problems that you suffer from are problems that you make
The shit we have to climb through is the shit we choose to take
If you don't like the life you live, change it now it's yours
Nothing has effects if you don't recognise the cause
If the programme's not the one you want, get up, turn off the set
It's only you that can decide what life you're gonna get
If you don't like religion they say be the antichrist
They say if your tired of politics you can be an anarchist
But no one ever changed the church by pulling down a steeple
Systems aren't made of bricks they're mostly made of people
And you'll never change the system by bombing number ten
You may send them into hiding, but they'll be back again
If you don't like the rules they make, refuse to play their game
If you don't want to be a number, don't give them your name
Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you're they only you
No one else has got your eyes to see the things you see
It's up to you to change your life and my life's up to me

I just heard that Satan is having to expand the size of hell and the severity of eternal torture and damnation just because of this news story.

These fuckers deserve to burn.

Damnation! *dupeof=http://videosift.com/video/First-90-Seconds-from-First-New-Futurama-Episode

Hrm, tad off pon. Yes, children are prone to imagine what they are taught AND what they are not taught. My daughter at two and a half was pretending to be a nurse and talking about her awesomely pronounced "stethoscope" and blood pressure cuffs. But she WAS taught that--as you say. At three, however, it became all her imagination! I don't teach her half the fairytales she recites, yet she brings shit out of the closet that amazes me... Really deep too... She does this often, as smart children do.

We do not simply demand to understand as you so narrowly define humanities' natural instinct of belief. Otherwise, we would have flocked to science and would have abandoned religion hundreds of years ago. Look at how we flock naturally to the easier way of everything else in life (Such as technology,) and science certainly is easier than religion! However, we, as a species, do not do this? Ever ask why? Because we imagine, even to this date, and we do it well. Hell, we read imaginations, watch imaginations, even live imaginary lives every day! And you say we are just curious! Lolz, yeah, that’s why we watch Harry Potter too! Lolz.

No, it is not that we are curious---we dream, we fly, we bask in our own delusions. Thor did not just explain thunder---he was thunder and a way of life that excited people.

Do not get me wrong pon, I understand your dislike of religion and those that push/force it upon weaker people. Just like any government, religion is 100% a form of exerted control upon others.

Now, just to point out something, not all religion is based on threats. Buddhists, and hell, even Jehovah's Witness do not preach doom and gloom (My mother was/is a devote Witness and for that I became an atheist. However, they never once preached hell and eternal suffering.)

Also, if we did not have religion---the blame-peice of humanity and our woes and evils---we would still have our woes and evil. And probably the same amount too.

The world wars for control, finate resources and personal amusement. It does not fight over ideals, although we hide behind those ideals so we can feel virtuous.

Lastly, religion does not have to stand on its own logic. See, if god exists, he is the single most powerful creature to ever exist. And if he does not exist? He is the single most powerful IDEA to ever exist. Not much difference huh? Same effects...
You point out that religion cannot stand on its own logic… Well, faith is not logical anyways! Not logical at all. How many times as a boy did I have faith in my mother only to be deceived and let down time and time again? Hundreds, because she was constantly lying and I constantly wanted an honest mother. But, like a fool I believed. How many cancer patients have faith that they can get better? Should we tell them how insane their beliefs are? (Because their beliefs are insane.)

See, that's the beauty of faith. It deceives whether in religion, family, friends, health, etcetera. Everyone's mother will let them down, yet most will have faith nevertheless.

Just let it go pon, we have always had irrational faith and always will. Try to live the best you can until the day that you cannot live anymore. It is all we can do. Try to change the heart of man, not his faith.



>> ^ponceleon:
Sorry Lawdeesaw, but children are NOT prone to "believe" the way you mean it... they are prone to LEARN. It is only ADULTS that fill their mind with bullshit that make them christians, muslims, scientologists, etc.
In fact, religions have to resort to THREATS (you will go to hell) to brainwash their young into suspending their disbelief at all the crap that DOESN'T make sense.
Take my 4 year old god-daughter for example. She's constantly asking questions about her parents faith which they have to answer with "because God wants it that way."
Really? Fuck that. Religion can't stand on its own logic, so it had to start mostly with the mentally vulnerable, which usually equates to children which are impressionable by fairy tales and threats of eternal damnation.
<em>>> <a rel="nofollow" href='http://videosift.com/video/Ugandan-Minister-Making-A-Huge-Fool-Of-Himself#comment-1008434'>^Lawdeedaw</a>:<br />
Otay...<br> <br> @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Seric" title="member since May 20th, 2008" class="profilelink">Seric</a>; Good points. That is how I believe (Though I worded it differently.) I simply realize that when you take the plastic face away, these same men and women who use religion as a justification will still be just as hateful.<br> <br> @BiycleRepairMan; Thanks for furthering my point, albeit unintentionally. Hitler was allowed because of the evil of people (Even good people can be evil.) There was no mask, there was no reason "decent" people were psychotic. It just happened, mostly because they were sheep. See, without religion, people will move on to find another reason to hate, kill, murder, rape and plunder. Economy? Perhaps... Race? Sure. Humans will be just as evil.<br> <br> But religious people are insane? Are children insane because they believe in superstitions? Santa? You are insane kid!!! Tooth Fairy?! Insane, take this child to the asylum! (By your technical explanation, children are insane to you… ) You also discredit the billions of people religious and spiritual as insane... Well, I guess it is human nature to be insane which makes them the sane ones?! Crap, I am screwed.<br> <br> "Bigotry? Check. Racism? Check. Sexism? Check. Discrimination? Check. Superstition? Check. Martyrdom? Check. Obedience to authority? Check." I was unaware that all religions taught that stuff... Well, the Native Americans cannot be so preachy now can they! Druids too! Ha, in your face! Buddhists? Bwaha.<br> <br> Oh, and half the people don't follow the good parts of religion anyways... Why, because they are evil people. You give too much credit to the average person who hides behind a "good" idea... The average German was a psychopath because they allowed Hitler his rule; and so is the average American who walks by a man just ran over by a car---and takes a photo with his cell phone.<br> <br> @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/ponceleon" title="member since February 8th, 2008" class="profilelink">ponceleon</a>; Explaining religion because it is a natural part of human thought is okay. Justifying actions because of religion is not. No one "justified" religion because of anything.<br> <br> Children are prone to belief because they are built that way. You cannot stop it, just curb it with time. It is built into us. I.e. explaining religion, not justifying it.<br> <br> On the uneducated part, my father, myself, brothers and all had an eighth grade education and guess what? Atheists all...<br></em>

Sorry Lawdeesaw, but children are NOT prone to "believe" the way you mean it... they are prone to LEARN. It is only ADULTS that fill their mind with bullshit that make them christians, muslims, scientologists, etc.

In fact, religions have to resort to THREATS (you will go to hell) to brainwash their young into suspending their disbelief at all the crap that DOESN'T make sense.

Take my 4 year old god-daughter for example. She's constantly asking questions about her parents faith which they have to answer with "because God wants it that way."

Really? Fuck that. Religion can't stand on its own logic, so it had to start mostly with the mentally vulnerable, which usually equates to children which are impressionable by fairy tales and threats of eternal damnation.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:

Otay...
@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Seric" title="member since May 20th, 2008" class="profilelink">Seric; Good points. That is how I believe (Though I worded it differently.) I simply realize that when you take the plastic face away, these same men and women who use religion as a justification will still be just as hateful.
@BiycleRepairMan; Thanks for furthering my point, albeit unintentionally. Hitler was allowed because of the evil of people (Even good people can be evil.) There was no mask, there was no reason "decent" people were psychotic. It just happened, mostly because they were sheep. See, without religion, people will move on to find another reason to hate, kill, murder, rape and plunder. Economy? Perhaps... Race? Sure. Humans will be just as evil.
But religious people are insane? Are children insane because they believe in superstitions? Santa? You are insane kid!!! Tooth Fairy?! Insane, take this child to the asylum! (By your technical explanation, children are insane to you… ) You also discredit the billions of people religious and spiritual as insane... Well, I guess it is human nature to be insane which makes them the sane ones?! Crap, I am screwed.
"Bigotry? Check. Racism? Check. Sexism? Check. Discrimination? Check. Superstition? Check. Martyrdom? Check. Obedience to authority? Check." I was unaware that all religions taught that stuff... Well, the Native Americans cannot be so preachy now can they! Druids too! Ha, in your face! Buddhists? Bwaha.
Oh, and half the people don't follow the good parts of religion anyways... Why, because they are evil people. You give too much credit to the average person who hides behind a "good" idea... The average German was a psychopath because they allowed Hitler his rule; and so is the average American who walks by a man just ran over by a car---and takes a photo with his cell phone.
@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/ponceleon" title="member since February 8th, 2008" class="profilelink">ponceleon; Explaining religion because it is a natural part of human thought is okay. Justifying actions because of religion is not. No one "justified" religion because of anything.
Children are prone to belief because they are built that way. You cannot stop it, just curb it with time. It is built into us. I.e. explaining religion, not justifying it.
On the uneducated part, my father, myself, brothers and all had an eighth grade education and guess what? Atheists all...

And here's Tycho from Penny Arcade's take on it, and it is beautiful:

"It was a lot of fun watching this story mutate as the day progressed, warping in its essential shape, culminating in something like justice. A brigand has tasted his own medicine, and it is bitter.

His Twitter is a hoot - he taunts Infinity Ward's Robert Bowling about the ability to alter game behavior at will, and in the very next message attempts to seek the developer's sympathy. It's like, wow, douche. Is lion taunting statistically correlated with lion attacks? Do some math, motherfucker. He's an utterly unrepentant hacker, yet he wonders what strange force keps gets his boxes banned. It would be like if I'd made a reputation for myself entering local cafes, slipping into the back to shit directly on their hot grills. And then, when I came back the next day, they told me to leave - even if I hadn't managed to shit on anything during that particular visit! Come to terms with the idea that there is a point beyond which you are not worth the price of your subscription.

There are times during the video when "The Pro," a moderator on the service and the supposed villain, sounds like a real bastard - but I've got sufficient life experience to recognize the underlying waveform in his audio stream.

He is using his Dad Voice.

When you and I log into the service of our choice, we can log off at any time. Try to imagine a world where you could not escape these people, where it was your damnation in a literal sense to stew in a crockpot of social disease. Maybe he should be nicer to people who claim to have fucked his grandmother until she was destroyed by the process. That's something he can work on, maybe. I'm sure there's an informative pamplet he can peruse. In the meantime, let's get that statue made."

Douchebag's Twitter: http://twitter.com/iTzLuPo

And he actually told MajorNelson over Twitter that he should expect a "class action suit" for saying his video of The Pro was edited. Wow.

>> ^bluecliff:
bullshit. the underpinning of all modern morals is the "code" of the new testament, which could not have arisen without the old. morality is cultural, not natural. Even dawkins knows this ffs, but his view of "culture" is so dim that he doesn't realize he has cornered himself into a historical trap. Hitchens - as an ex-marxist is probably quite aware of this; but when he ceased being marxist he also apparently ceased to be intelligent.
It's f cking marvelous that Fry mentions Plato. It's precisely CHRISTIANITY which enabled the Philosophers to gain a greater foothold in the consciousness of the masses. The romans didn't give a flying fuck about Plato, too busy having gang-bangs and re-vomiting the same meal again and gain.


Morality is cultural and not natural?

I need to be told that causing others pain is "BAD", when I know from the age of zero that pain is something I'd rather avoid? The life I love living isn't evidence enough for me to know that it's "BAD" to take that away from someone else? I need to be told that? That may not have been your argument but for those that make it, come on.

If all modern morals share the same "code" with the New Testement: so what? What does that prove? That god therefore exists? Nope. That religion gets to take credit for all good that humans are apparently mind-controlled into doing? Nope. All it proves is that the Bible puts forth the same morality that exists concurrently in the minds of non-believers. Religion pretends authorship of morality, that it came up with the idea of good and bad. That's horseshit by my reckoning. All it(Christianity I suppose) came up with, with respect to morality, are the ideas of the reward of Heaven for those that abide by the "code", and the punishment of eternal fiery damnation for those that deviate from it. Spiritual "carrot and stick". That may be perfectly sensible to some, but count me out, and good day to you.