BTW, here's the text of the memo that Countdown obtained:

http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/12/1713569.aspx

Rychan, that up there ^, that's evil.

Both sides are conceding that this was the final issue that the Dems and Unions didn't cave on.

The Republicans though, aren't mentioning that their whole goal was to put the screws to the Unions as hard as they could, and the Dems called their bluff.

The only ones playing "brinksmanship" are the asshats who brought us to the brink in the first place: the Republicans.

You always won, every time you placed a bet
You're still damn good, no ones gotten to you yet
Every time they were sure they had you caught
You were quicker than they thought
You'd just turn your back and walk
You always said, the cards would never do you wrong
The trick you said was never play the game too long
A gamblers share, the only risk that you would take
The only loss you could forsake
The only bluff you couldn't fake

And you're still the same
I caught up with you yesterday
Moving game to game
No one standing in your way
Turning on the charm
Long enough to get you by
You're still the same
You still aim high

There you stood, everybody watched you play
I just turned and walked away
I had nothing left to say

cause you're still the same
You're still the same
Moving game to game
Some things never change
You're still the same

>> ^Duckman33:
I'm referring to NASA's own pictures after the landing has taken place. Not the footage of the landing. You tell me where the blast crater is, or any disturbed dust under the thruster of the lander for that matter in these pictures:
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/5864.jpg
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/5872.jpg
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/5873.jpg
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/5927.jpg
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11ann/kippsphotos/5931.jpg
The first linked picture pretty much sums up my point. I suppose they moved the lander to a different spot then took the pictures because the blast crater created by the thruster was unsightly? I'm not saying it was fake or not. But there are many discrepancies in NASA's own pictures that need to be answered.


What does disturbed dust look like as opposed to undisturbed dust? What does a blast crater in a bunch of craters look like? Even more so, this isn't earth dust, most of it is very ridged and doesn't behave in the same manor as the rounded dust you and I are exposed to everyday. You are using your experiences of unlike conditions on earth to equate to the entirely different conditions on the moon and trying to pass that as a reasonable.

I tell you who doesn't doubt the moon landing; radio telescope operators who traced its decent and ascent to and from the moons surface. Not to mention that the government couldn't keep the Manhattan project a secret and NASA is 20 times as large as. The Russians would have been the first ones to call our bluff.

Calling Bullshit isnt preaching. And thats what these atheists do Dawkins, PZ, these guys, etc, all they are saying is "Bullshit, I call your bluff, lets see them fuckin' cards" And whenever we do get a peek at the cards of the pious, its always the same: Arguments from design and first cause, or variations on Pascals wager.

Yet they are still betting and fishing money from the poor and gullible around the table, pretending they are sitting on a royal flush, and, because of this neat, unwritten (except in scripture) rule they've established, no one is even supposed to call them out, its taboo, and when we do it anyway, of course our hands are better, We've been shuffling and dealing new hands for 2000 years since they got the hand they're stuck with. Its like we're cheating. And when we do turn over our cards, who wouldnt look smug?

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

It sounds like we agree more than we disagree.

From what I've read it's been pretty consistent that Georgia fired first. Where it gets muddy is that they fired on South Ossetia, which is a separatist region within their own border that's strongly in favor of reuniting with North Ossetia...in Russia. Russia then "invaded" by moving into South Ossetia to "defend" it against the Georgian troops. However, they used a wildly disproportionate force that routed the Georgians, and there was an iffy period there where people weren't sure if the Russians were going to charge to the Georgian capital or not (and they didn't).

Not too many accounts include all those pieces of information, but that's the picture I've gotten from what I read.

This certainly isn't Russia randomly attacking a small neighbor for no reason, with Georgia being an innocent victim -- they just made a bad gamble counting on US/NATO support to stay Russia's hand, and Russia called that bluff.

We're already appearing weak, because we fluffed up Georgia into thinking we'd come riding to their rescue if Russia responded militarily. Instead, Bush stayed in China for the weekend, sent a low-level emissary to Georgia only, and let French President Sarkozy do all the real diplomatic work.

As for military help? They got our permission to bring home their troop contingent from Iraq. Russia knew that we couldn't respond in any meaningful way when they went in. Georgia, on the other hand, expected more.

Sounding blustery and bellicose just adds to the "all bark and no bite" image we just earned, at least in my opinion. Obama's comments by contrast get the same message across without making it sound like an ultimatum and certainly seem more likely to entice diplomatic engagement, which should be our goal here.

As for the bit about NATO, I'm ambivalent about whether we should be pushing that in the first place. All I'm saying is that for right now it's probably best not to make too much noise about that, since we want to cool things down, not stir them up. The article I linked above was mostly saying "see, Obama's mentioning NATO too" though it has a different connotation than McCain's comments (note the title of the release).

My ultra-cynical side sees a motive for Bush/McCain to stir it up (at least in public), because they think it might help McCain in the election.

This also reminds me that McCain has been recommending a long line of belligerent policies with regard to Russia (like "kicking them out" of the G8). Now he's very gung-ho about Georgia being admitted into NATO now so we can get on with a war with Russia over Georgia. It's like he misses the Cold War, and wants it back.

I agree, Gold's strong reaction saved him some money. He wouldn't have walked away from it for fear that he had just given in to a bluff. If Gold had folded, Farha could have bluffed his way all the way there.

>> ^bcglorf:
I would say this is fear mongering, only from the left this time. Bush and Cheney might be crazy enough to do something like this, but the right to bear arms will be what stays their hand. They aren't so ignorant as to realize that even martial law couldn't stop the resulting uprising from a president with the lowest approval ratings ever calling off an election.


I agree. They've been experts at keeping radical action "low key", and suspending elections would spark an instant revolution. If they were planning that, Fox News would be talking about the possibility day & night, to lay the groundwork in the public consciousness.

I could believe that list was given to the Democratic leadership, and that they caved, rather than call the bluff.

More likely though, I think you're right about Nader just trying to scare Democrats into voting for him.

However, if we have a domestic terror attack between now and the election, I'm going to become a full believer in conspiracies, because that won't be a coincidence at all.

>> ^Majortomyorke:
lol @ QM's downvote.


Indeed, again demonstrating the Right Wing's method of politics, create something, yell it really loudly until people think you're knowledgable, and try and hide and silence anyone who demonstrates your complete simpleton and incorrect knowledge of fact.

The bullcrap that he spouts and the minutes of trying to bluff his way out of not having any idea of the piece of history he's talking about... brilliant. Brilliant show up of a simple minded idiot.

The problem is that in so many cases these people shout this crap with conviction, and people believe it to be true because they shout it loudly enough and with enough venom.

Why is Bolton such an ass clown?
He should just give up his punditry and go play poker for the rest of his life with Rumsfeld, Tenet, and Jim Baker. At least there their lies and bluffs won't hurt anyone.

I have been slapped by women for being ornery in the manner which Connery thinks justifies a slap, nobody came to my defense.

I have had female friends who could kick my ass, and male friends who could not, how do genitals effect the appropriateness of the use of physical force to settle disputes?

There is a point at which using "I'm female (read weak) so you can't hit me" can be used as a tool for emotional abuse. The possibility of physical altercation does serve to keep many conflicts civil, claiming immunity is pretty damn annoying, anybody who does it should be prepared if their bluff is called.

Until China overtakes America as the worlds worst polluter, both overall and per capita, the rest of the world is still waiting on America to be the one to initiate real action. When will America lead the way in environmental issues? Ask yourself which countries lead the way now in renewable energy, more efficient motoring, strong environmental political policies, real debate in the media etc. 30 years ago you could have answered America, but not any more. Now the world leaders are Japan, Germany and other European nations.

America is by far the scariest and most dangerous country in the world right now - responsible for the most dangerous wars and the most dangerous pollution. America has shipped their worst polluting industry overseas to China and India, and tried to shift the blame at the same time, but the market remains at home. Why is the American public, including the usual vocal internet community, so quiet about environmental issues?

As for recent cooling, lets just say that any article that talks about cooling in the past few years but fails to mention La Nina or El Nino should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Here are another few interesting that appeared in the Australian.

This one concludes the article posted above:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23632059-11949,00.html

This article is typical of the nonsense that sways so much of the public:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23583376-7583,00.html

This article calls the previous one's bluff:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23612876-11949,00.html

Next up: Hillary is a master of bluff at Texas Hold 'Em.

Hilarious, he's all bluff, because he knows he can pull it on kids. "Call me dude one more time..." And, you fat pig? What are you going to do, DUDE? "...the sooner you learn that, the longer you're going to live in this world." Is that a threat, officer?

"You disrespected me, this badge, and my department!" No one is under any law mandating respect. I also love it that he seems to think he has authority over anyone -- "Sit down.. did you not just hear me?!" Uh, the kid is under no law to sit down, just because you said so, swine.

The best part is he finally realizes he's being filmed, and ends the video with an ultimatum. Which apparently failed. I'd love to hear how the called parents' opinions changed when they saw the video.

Dude Rivieri, do the world a favor and go pick a fight with a gang of armed drug dealers next time, instead of children.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I hope QuantumMushroom is watching with his "Iran delenda est" bullshit. To be honest, I don't think the US would seriously undertake to attack Iran- it's a big bluff as a way to get them to change policy.

I don't think it's an effective bluff though- as it's just strengthening the theocracy there- as the Iranians rally round the flag. Stupid NeoCon saber rattling.

Eastern Promises (2007)
A History of Violence (2005)
Spider (2002)
Camera (2000/III)
eXistenZ (1999)
Crash (1996/I)
M. Butterfly (1993)
Naked Lunch (1991)
"Scales of Justice" (1 episode)
Dead Ringers (1988)
"Friday the 13th" (1 episode, 1988)
The Fly (1986)
The Dead Zone (1983)
Videodrome (1983)
Scanners (1981)
The Brood (1979)
Fast Company (1979)
Rabid (1977)
"Teleplay" (1976) TV Series (episode "The Italian Machine")
Shivers (1975)
"Peep Show" (2 episodes, 1975)
Lakeshore (1972) (TV)
Fort York (1972) (TV)
In the Dirt (1972) (TV)
Don Valley (1972) (TV)
Scarborough Bluffs (1972) (TV)
Winter Garden (1972) (TV)
Jim Ritchie Sculptor (1971) (TV)
Tourettes (1971) (TV)
Letter from Michelangelo (1971) (TV)
"Programme X" (1970) TV Series (episode "Secret Weapons")
Crimes of the Future (1970)
Stereo (1969)
From the Drain (1967)
Transfer (1966)