You mean that there's a demand for a bank type institution to actually do what banks do: store savings and grants loans instead of taking your money, creating a huge sum of money from that, then invest that in to options and derivatives that is basically gambling, then losing it all and getting everything back as bailouts? Really, who would've guessed a traditional bank is a good thing when it doesn't run on "profit now" ultra-capitalist principle.

It's something that is very common elsewhere in the world. There usually is a demand for very simple, traditional basic banks that can't swindle with overdraft charges, credit cards pushed to people who can't handle them, just the basic bank you store money temporarily.

There are regulations in place that allow such banks to be exist and these banks are the real backbones of the economy, increasing growth in the smallest sectors that immediately invest that money back in to the economy. It might even be state backed bank or a group of citizens, it might be mandatory by law etc. Usually every country has one. It promotes equality, social mobility and keeps the cash rotating much longer than what investing towards investment banking does. The latter is just a cancer, it doesn't really do anything but it skims the most wealth and that wealth does not move anywhere, it stays in that imaginary system.

In USA, regulatory system is so stripped out that freerange capitalism is really showing how bad it is when it's left running things. Capitalism is like fire: good servant, poor master.

"it just sounds like a return to feudalism."

How so specifically? An agrarian culture based on farmland ownership?

It sounds to me that your imagination is getting the best of you. Creative, but not at all what I am describing. Somalia is a failed state, and a socialist failed state at that. However, as you know, things from medical services to life expectancy to infrastructure to child mortality to crime all dropped in the 20 years in which Somalia had no functioning government. Things got better not worse. Why do you think that is?

Saying a free market would be like Somalia is like saying that a government-regulated market would be like North Korea. There are other issues to consider.

Libertarianism does not posit that a free market automatically means a perfect or even a great society. But it does posit that a free market system will ease poverty, increase wealth, and ensure peace at a faster pace than a statist one. At whatever level a culture/society starts at, they will improve and be better off in a free market rather than under state rule. Somalia started off in a mess, caused by its failed state circumstances. You cannot seriously expect to go from one day to the next, eliminate the state, and expect that overnight all that damage will sort itself out just because now -- a day later -- there's no state. You have to rebuild and accumulate wealth over time. And Somalia did remarkably well considering the mess it started from.

A society like the US, which is much better off (for the time-being!), would improve even more, rather than deteriorate, with less or even no government. But of course, if a meteorite wipes out DC overnight, that does not mean overnight improvement. After all, the government has wiped out many private institutions that would need to be in place to take over from the government in providing the services they put out of business.

On the other hand, the road towards more state control (which you, strangely continue to support and defend) leads to more deterioration of the society/culture. The US is doing better because of all the capital it accumulated during the century in which it functioned under little government intervention with regards to its economic matters. That wealth has been badly squandered, and now Americans are living off what remains, slowly but surely bankrupting the country though more government interventions, currency inflations, needless war, bailouts, surveillance, ad infinitum.

But make no mistake: whatever wealth the US as a nation has came about though free exchange in commerce, and was not the result of government regulation. The more government interferes, the slower the growth, until now it has reached the point where there is no growth, only debt. (The Treasury should be renamed the Department of Debt, because it has no money, only debt -- just like a majority of Americans.)

In sum: Somalis are improving. Americans are not. Whoever you are, I assure you, you started off in a much better place than the average Somali did. But look at their rate of change!


EDIT: Somalia also did not have a "free market" when it came to warlord gangs. Unless people had a choice as to which warlord to hire for protection or not, then that is not a free market when it comes to protection services. If allegiance to a particular warlord was voluntary, then you could more honestly make the claim that they had a "free market." Still, the situation is improving. And I think it would have improved faster had there not been the (UN-fueled) expectation of a future centralized government, had the UN not been financing groups towards this end, and had they not been incentivizing gangs to fight each other for position in a future "government."

There is nothing "free market" about forced conscription. I don't know why you would even say that.

I said "cronyism aside" to explain the pure theory. Of course cronyism throws a wrench into the system. And cronyism is a function of government-granted privileges. As long as you have the monopoly we call government, you will have cronyism. Plain and simple. The most potent way to "slant the playing field" is through the use of government: a powerful and widely accepted tool of legalized aggression and coercion.

In fact, that's one of the main 'uses' of government regulation: to ensure that others cannot "catch up." The minimum wage laws are an example (contrary to the rhetoric surrounding the issue). So is taxation. And currency inflation used to pay for the bailouts. The list goes on and on.

Sociopaths win when they can use government to prevent competition. And make no mistake, the government itself is rife with sociopaths. (One might say that it's a prerequisite!)

(BTW, what exactly do the sociopaths "win?" To my mind, any "wealth" they have was not "won" at all, but was stolen by force, using the government as a mechanism of income redistribution. Without this tool, they'd have no choice but to offer actual goods/services that others want to pay for, if they want any wealth.)

.....
(And just as I was about to post this, I found this!) You think it's harder for poor folks to climb the income ladder now than it was 20 or 40 years ago? You're wrong, say the folks at the Equality of Opportunity project. (Let me note that these are NOT "right wingers." Saez is the darling of many progressives because of some his earlier work on inequality.) "The authors of this study measured the ability of children born in different income strata from 1971 to 1993 to move into different income groups. For example, it found that a child born in 1971 in the bottom 20% of household earners had an 8.4% chance of eventually making it into the top 20% of earners by his or her 20s or 30s. The chances of a child born in 1986 making a similar ascent was 9.0%."

"Rich Man's World (1%)"

[Arthur Jensen:]
"You get up and howl about america and democracy.
There is no america there is no democracy,
We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies.
The world is a college of corporations... inexorably
Determined by the... immutable bylaws of business.
The world is a business.
And I have chosen you to preach this evangel"

[Immortal Technqiue:]
For all my free market, healthcare robbing, stock stealing, retirement fund
Fucking with niggas. Fuck your little credit card scammin, jewlery stealing,
Crack selling, liquor store robbing mother fuckers (Its a rich mans world)
Hahahaha. Shout to the homies, Carnegie, OG, Willie Randolf Hearst,
Rockefeller, the real Rockefeller, my main bitch Leona, pour out a little Louie the
Thirteenth, Jack Abramoff, hold ya head, my Rothschild niggas, LET'S
GET THIS MONEY

[Verse 1: Immortal Technique]
I spend my day repping america overseas
Pensions for the workers? nigga please
Embezzlement etiquette private settlement
I'm better with confederate rhetoric from my mansion in connecticut
Foreclose and evict homes at the tenement
I twist words like a speech inpedIment
I hope you got good credit bitch
If not better get a new job with benefits
When I play golf with niggasii get cheddar with
New money buys brand new karats
My old money bought your great grand parents
You got grills in ya mouth I ain't mad at ya
I own every gold mine in South Africa
Thanks baby you made me a billion
Plus I own a building for each one of my children's children
That's the shit, snort coke in the whip miss USA sucking my dick
Yea what fuck the law 'cus real jail is for suckas
I go to country club prison you dumb mother fuckers
(I am the 1% fucking bitch)

[Hook]
You know my CEO corporate steeez please
Overthrow governments overseas in a breeze
Politicians in my pocket for a few hundred Gs
So if I'm never in court my assets a never freeze

[Verse 2: Immortal Technique]
I got a job and house and a bank account
When I'm out I doubt that's something you could say
And if not then I fake death like Kenneth Lay
Make money every day the world burns
Wanna tax us while y'all struggle to pay taxes
I'm getting my money the fastest
Memos and faxes shredded up documents
Slush funds through the corrupt continents
But they don't want me indicted
'Cause they don't want my dirty laundry aired when I fight it
Don't get my lawyers excited
'Cause what good is a law if you can't rewrite it
I got CIA traders, dictators so fuck y'all whistleblowers and haters
(Its a rich mans world) Shiiieeeaaat
I'll invest money from Al Qaeda
In the bank 911 widows go to later
Capitalism so I pray to fuck the state of the world
Money talks so what the fuck I need to say to ya girl
(I don't pay em to fuck, I pay em to leave)

[Hook]
You know my CEO corporate steeez greed
I'll treat countries like the IMF down on your knees
Real gangsters run the world fuck what you believe
I'll cut down the forest while y'all niggas burning some trees
I'll get your family murdered for a couple of Gs
'Cause your working class money ain't fucking with me
You think rappers are rich 'cause of songs you heard?
My labels make the money and haven't rapped a fucking word

[Verse 3: Immortal Technique]
Y'all in the ocean coastin' with the sails out
Hey America thanks for the bailouts
I made off at the banco ambrosiano
Got away scott free like el Vaticano
Acitvists activist get mad at me
'Cause I'm a tax free charity
80% to the staff and company
And 20% to the homeless and hungry
The country gotta pay the fed reserve
Kick back to the banksters haven't you learned
You protest cops or patrols on the street
But I bought city hall so I own the police
Email facebook and the shit you tweet
On the phone companies so I heard you speaking
My suggestion is no correction no elections, sex with no affection
No invention would benefit the world of man
Will exist till I got the money in my hand
World bank, interest rate damn rape on the spot
But I'm a gangster you gon' take my money like it or not, nigga
(I got your country in my pocket, motherfucker!)

[Hook]
You know my CEO masonic steeez cheese
Only little people pay all these taxes and fees
Since you were born we controlled what you watch and you read
And pretty soon were gonna own the fucking air that you breathe
I take what I want fucker I don't have to say please
I'll convince you that it's good for you, take it and leave
You think presidents are the face of a nation
I put em all where they are, end of the conversation

Hahaha

What a fucking nutcase. The greatest thing the GOP has done is try to convince everyone that Obama is a Left Socialist. Obama can get away with any Bank Bailouts and War efforts while he's being painted as Left Liberal extreme.

It's like when you keep saying the USSR is Socialist, they both say it so it's hard to get around but the truth is it wasn't in the least. They had killed all the socialists and who took over where thugs who were completely un-socialist.

Not defending him, but he isn't talking about the city. 'Detroit' is a metaphor American car manufacturers, and in this particular case, the restructuring of General Motors' debt through a taxpayer bailout in 2008/9.

Context matters.

@NinjaInHeat go ahead, throw away your money paying higher taxes, no one's stopping you, but it won't give you any moral authority to demand higher taxes for other people.

I'd seriously like to understand what justifies a corporation paying progressively more taxes than the rest of us. Aren't we trying to right a wrong here, are profits in the hands of a productive entity or person something inherently bad for society? Should it be transferred to government instead, who is much better at wasting resources than petty cost-conscious businessmen?

Your hatred towards all corporations is misplaced because, believe it or not, they don't all conspire to enjoy the same amount of freedom and privileges. Government is stepping in and benefitting a select few at the expense of many. In this awful economy, many corporations have gone bankrupt or are struggling to get by, while a few benefit from massive bailouts and federal contracts handsomely paid for with the debasement of our currency and heavy taxes you so fiercely want all corporations to pay.

To me, that's neither representative of capitalism, nor of a healthy functioning society.

I think you're mistaken in your understanding that we have any substantial power or responsibility for the actions of our governments. In a democracy, your participation outside of a more influential circle is mostly symbolic. Sure, you can vote and run for office, but that limited capacity for involvement shouldn't be an excuse to shunt any criticism of government.

Bill Maher is a moron. And "republican secret rules" also fits for "democrat secret rules"

both parties are the exact same, they are just 2 sides of the same coin.

and media makes damn sure that other parties never get mentioned, as to keep watchers brain washed into thinking there is a difference between the 2 parties.

for example I'm a tea partier but I'm also one of the most vocal in my groups 'occupy wall street' movement. The media would have you think tea party = republican and occupy = democrat

it's not neither are, they are both for getting back to constitution, reaffirming 10th amendment, and stop bailing out banks who refuse to lend money to civilians making bailouts worthless, setting our economy up to fail like Greece.

It should be pointed out that the richest in America and those who benefited hugely from the bailout can't even be found on census data. You have to do A LOT of study to actually find out they exist, it's something like 1% of the top 1%. They have serious influence, and benefit from a crooked system.

Also for the broader point of inequality. The point of the battle against it is because those on the lesser side have been being hammered for following the rules. You work and work for years with the idea that you'll get ahead, and that's taken away from you. This is how the Tea Party came about, their grievances are legitimate before they were sort of taken away from them by more powerful interests.

The point is, democracy suffers hugely when you have inequality. Ancient Greece (Aristotle) had the idea to fix this is by making the society more equal, therefore you wouldn't have the poor using their power of numbers to subvert democracy against the rich. America had a similar problem in the early days, instead of working towards equality, they worked towards stifling democracy. By putting most of the power in the hands of the wealthy Senate, it made sure that democracy wouldn't get out of hand and the rich white guys can keep what they stole.

Look this isn't something that's right or left. The right and the left are together on this, we don't like tyrannical powers trying to control us. A corporation with it's top down infrastructure is the basic definition of tyrannical. Add that to the fact that corporations dictate how our democracy is run, you have a system that isn't functioning and needs to be fixed.

Our Democracy isn't functional, it needs to be taken down and replaced.

*quality morning read-I showed-up within a month of the infamous snakeplissken's bailout. Didn't he get rid of all his comments as well?

Its all fun and games until someone needs an 800bn bailout..

@rottenseed
you make some good points buckaroo but your post is ignoring the giant pink elephant in the room.
@Sagemind 's most excellent post gave that elephant a nod but i think it prudent to point directly at that giant hulking pustulent piece of pink elephant flesh.

shall we?
1.corporate america is NOT based on true capitalism (actual free market) but rather state-run capitalism.this translates to lower or non-existent tax revenue,government subsidies and outright bailouts.
in other words=socialism.

2.you state that a corporation has a "duty" to maximize profits.i would agree if you changed "duty" to "legal obligation".

3.this legal obligation to maximize profits has led to all kinds of inventive and clever ways to defraud the public and local municipalities,from having them pay for infrastructure to waste clean-up.the amount of money spent by public,tax-payer funds is staggering which of course=socialism.

4.corporate america has a literal army of 35,000 lobbyists in washington whose sole purpose is to manipulate legislatures to pass favorable laws (de-regulation).85% of ALL laws passed are actually written by corporate lobbyists.

5.since the abomination ruling of citizens united (fuck you alito) corporate america now has the unlimited access to our lawmakers.walmart spent tens of millions on the last election cycle,how much did you give? and who do you think those legislators are going to be listening to?
money=speech in this country.

6.a corporation is considered a person but this person has no empathy,remorse nor feelings of solidarity with fellow humans due to its very nature written into law.
otherwise known as a sociopath.

seewhatimsaying?
the corporate charter needs to be re-examined and/or re-written because what we have now is corporate welfare/socialism with all the benefits going to the top while the working class foots the bill.

vote with your wallet? sure.that would work to a point but many people are limited concerning options and walmart is the only place these folks can afford.
sometimes this economic situation is due to bad choices but more often it is just life kicking these people in the balls.

buck up and go grab some higher education?
sure...and that works how often?
im not kidding.go check the statistics.they are pathetic.
i bartend part time and there are 4 masters degrees and 8 bachelors where i work,all in different fields.ask them how their "higher education" paid off for them.
$100,000 in student debt loans all to be able to ask "would you like some cracked pepper sir"?

now lets punch that pink elephant straight in the balls shall we?
the suggestion that somehow if labor becomes organized and demands..and receives..a more viable living wage with some humane and decent benefits will somehow automatically translate into higher priced goods and eventual job loss is just corporate propaganda which originates from the reagan years.

this is absolute and utter bullshit all fed to us by the very corporations seeking to dominate and oppress its work force.

remember,it is the legal obligation of the corporate board of directors to "maximize profit" not "shoot itself in the foot".
the suggestion that somehow paying its employees a living wage translates to the destruction of the company is apocalyptic propaganda.

what has been done to the american worker is perverse.over the past thirty years we have seen the creation of either wage-slaves or debt slaves..or both.
any way you wish to look at it.we are slaves in one form or another.

i mean..just go check the numbers.
worker pay has stagnated for the past thirty years,while corporate profits have continually broken records.
do you seriously think that a unionized labor force will kill walmart?
not a chance and to suggest otherwise just indicates that the corporate propaganda has been quite effective.

walmart could pay a living wage AND offer affordable benefits and STILL would have cheap goods.
and every step of the way they would be "maximizing profits".

welcome to the united states of corporate america!
will that be cash or credit?

@enoch why, is society so incapable of voluntary charity that, without government, people would simply have no concern for each other? Stating that it's a basic, fundamental role, doesn't make it so. Maybe you should question that.

@Yogi but you're not exactly giving money to an old widow or helping kids at school, you're just being forced into funding a corporation called "government", trusting that they won't steal that money for bailouts, corruption or sheer incompetence. Not wanting government involved doesn't imply lack of concern for the poor and needy or non-willingness to do charity by other means.

America is one of the most charitable countries in the world, more than $200 billion last year alone, most of the contributions coming from middle class individuals. Why are you so distrustful of the kindness of the human spirit, so sure that if government didn't make people do charity at the point of a gun, people would always let their neighbors starve and die?

Unless Darken is signing my paycheck, I answer however I damned well please. And my side business selling straw men, well, I didn't build that, Obama did.

Many on that list are Obama 'accomplishments' only for leftists.


Ears didn't end anything in Iraq, it was already happening when he took office.

He had nothing to do with Moammar and would support whoever came out on top.

The stimulus, particularly the bank bailouts, did nothing except put us in greater debt.

The Chevy Volt is a failure.

Government takeover of healthcare?...I only wish ALL the new taxes Obamacare will hit us with would happen at once, so the oblivious can experience the rotten deal and betrayal of Constitution.

FDA regulating tobacco? Another step backwards from ending Drug Prohibition.

The two UNqualified affirmative action judges added to Supreme Court.

Billions lost to green jobs scams/putting the kibosh on the Keystone pipeline.

...and so forth.

Obama running on his record? Go right ahead. It's why he's where he's at today.


>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^quantumushroom:
An "enraged" Maddow doesn't bother me in the slightest, nor is her blather worth commenting on.
It's just nice to see the left dick-punched with their own tactics, the righty version of lib lies like "trickle-down" and "tax cuts for the rich" (and calling everyone a racist).
You all think Obama has a record worth running on? Let him know. Cause even he don't believe it.
"Economist Edward Lazear has cut through all of Barack Obama's claims about "creating jobs" with one plain and inescapable fact — "there hasn't been one day during the entire Obama presidency when as many Americans were working as on the day President Bush left office." Whatever number of jobs were created during the Obama administration, more have been lost."
>> ^DarkenRahl:
Do you EVER respond to the actual video and/or discussion? You must have a side business selling straw men.
>> ^quantumushroom:
The FORMER big three networks were all liberally-biased for decades (and are still in denial about it).
It's a miracle there are as many righties as there are, with leftists controlling government schools and hollywood.
The internet has saved this nation from the former "fourth estate" who betrayed and murdered real journalism to stump for taxocrats.
There's something wrong when FOX holds one point of view but ALL THE OTHER networks parrot the same line of socialist claptrap.
Oh, I almost forgot. Man-made global warming--or even plain global warming, continues to be a sham.
And fk castro.
THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE RIGHT HAS SPOKEN!



So the answer to @DarkenRahl 's question is...no.
It cracks me up that the right thinks Obama isn't or can't run on his record. He's been running on his record since day one. The right continues to pretend to live in an alternate universe. I know you listen to fox news and they're demonstrably mis-informing people on a regular basis, but you've either missed or willfully ignored his many accomplishments
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ma
gazine/march_april_2012/features/obamas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php

Peterffy is right on everything except that voting Republican will help solve the problem. Both democrats and republicans strongly support social welfare/safety nets, bailouts, big military/national security spending, and many other forms of government expansion. The LIBERTARIANS are presently the only major party that is a realistic alternative to the socialist/Keynesian agenda. Too much socialism will eventually destroy the economic power of the USA. Many people, unfortunately do not understand this concept because 1) the major socialist/communist superpowers of years ago have collapsed and are long gone (and the horrors of those regimes are largely forgotten), and 2) People have become increasingly dependent on social programs, subsidies, & government employment to survive.

As Upton Sinclair once said, "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." How do you explain to a government worker that people in the private sector make 35% less in pay & benefits? You don't, they'll still ask for more by striking & threatening to shut down 'indispensable' government services--and they'll get what they want every time because their employer is already in the business of giving handouts. When they win it will be reported as a 'victory for labor' or the 'middle class', but it's really only a victory for the ballooning protected government/elite class. How do you explain to a long-time welfare recipient that the check won't be in the mail this month? You don't. You buy votes with social programs or the promise of a cushy government job. This is how the slippery slope of socialism works and eventually there will be more people in the wagon than are actually pulling it. The economy will gradually become less innovative, creative, dynamic, & productive as a result. The overall standard of living will decline and there will be continued threats to freedom & prosperity.

Socialist policies may have great intentions, but the actual results are often very different from such great intentions. As the old saying goes..."The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Socialism is a great example of such a road. Unfortunately many people have to see it to believe it.