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>> ^eatbolt:
you can smile knowingly while calling the president things like "Abomination."


more like Obamanation

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>> ^imstellar28:
I am a scientific person so I require scientific evidence for my beliefs.

I'm not sure what would constitute scientific evidence in relation to some of these questions.

Obama's citizenship cannot be scientifically verified, nor must it be, as it is a legal question. Obama provided the evidence necessary to meet the legal threshold. Can you prove your citizenship scientifically? No, of course not. Nobody can. If you 'require scientific evidence'... well, good luck with that.

Socialism is a broad term and means different things to different people. It would be difficult to make a case without stating a clear definition to work against. Heck, income tax is a socialist system, so anyone with a job has socialist tendencies (or is a federal criminal).

Nationalization and debt... well, how about as a preliminary you scientifically demonstrate that we have a large public debt. Also, scientifically demonstrate that we have a bankrupt government and that money can be produced spontaneously from atmospheric gases. Once you've done that, I'll see what I can do.

As a "scientific person" you should know that disbelief is the default stance. Nobody has to prove Obama doesn't support infanticide until someone produces evidence that he does.

Obama's grandma's claims are irrelevant as I've detailed above. He has met the legal threshold for proving his citizenship and I'm not sure it's possible to hold him to any higher standard.

#6... Unfortunately, he is. Read the proposal yourself if you want the evidence.

>> ^gwiz665:
It's just a question. The motives are political.

That is conjecture. How can you speak for the motives of others?

>> ^imstellar28:
"These accusations have been rebutted time and time again"
I keep hearing this, so why can't someone point me to the article/video/website where they were rebutted?


Here's a Snopes article on the birth certificate issue. It took moments to google and read.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

The birth certificate itself.
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

And a follow up article.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Tags for this video have been changed from 'alan keyes, obama, barack' to 'alan keyes, obama, barack, communism' - edited by doogle

>> ^imstellar28:
I'm not refuting anything, I'm asking a question: please provide evidence supporting the consensus. I have yet to ever receive an answer. You and others are making a claim here "Alan Keyes is insane" yet nobody has provided a single reason for this. I'm not making any claims here, I'm asking a question!
Again, if this man's claims are insane the evidence should by definition be readily available--why has nobody provided it, especially if I said I will watch your entire personal queue?


People said he was insane colloquially, probably because of several of his views being percieved as far from reality. I don't think anyone here is really saying he his clinically insane, despite a couple comparisons being drawn.

The main problems I believe include him calling Obama a "radical socialist", which we've gone over already. That appraisal is waaay off. He takes it to the extreme like some of his other points, like Obama somehow single-handedly destroying the USA. He spins the infanticide thing like crazy, removing all context whatsoever and turning it into something like "Obama supports killing babies", literally inferring that's his general stance. Like it applies to every baby, like he personally wants them dead. Again, way off reality.

And the Obama not actually being president thing? Wow. He says it isn't a laughing matter. It is. The level of fact-ignoring is worse than creationism.

1. These accusations have been rebutted time and time again, yet they keep repeating the same old arguments. For example: "He refused to show his documents!" comes up EVERY SINGLE TIME. At one point during his campaign this came up. Later on he provided the documents. They're on the web even. Anyone can see his birth certificate. But, no, it keeps getting repeated as a "reason" and "evidence". Let's keep calling this orange a banana over and over and over and...

2. It's on technicalities anyway. Blindly trying to apply law without regard to it's original intent. Even if some obscure law changed his status, why would it even matter? With a straight face can you make the argument that a word in our language determined by arbitrary law is more important than evaluating the situation itself? You know, how a judge would? To determine whether one is qualified would you not look at the evidence and use reason?

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting that he said. His appraisals of reality are simply in the extreme, presented as black and white issues, with no context.

This is why he is being colloquially labelled as crazy... just because he's "on the same side" as others who make rational arguments against, say, economic stimulation, doesn't mean HIS arguments or he himself is rational.

I also deny mainstream consensus in religion, yet I've never read the entire bible--do you have a problem with that? If I was alive 600 years ago, would you have a problem if I didn't think the earth was flat? How about 3000 years ago if I didn't believe that disease was caused by evil spirits? If theres not evidence supporting the consensus, why should I accept it? I am a scientific person so I require scientific evidence for my beliefs. If you don't have evidence for what you are saying, you might as well be quoting the bible.

I'm not refuting anything, I'm asking a question: please provide evidence supporting the consensus. I have yet to ever receive an answer. You and others are making a claim here "Alan Keyes is insane" yet nobody has provided a single reason for this. I'm not making any claims here, I'm asking a question!

Again, if this man's claims are insane the evidence should by definition be readily available--why has nobody provided it, especially if I said I will watch your entire personal queue?

>> ^chilaxe:
Imstellar, you deny mainstream consensus in economics and in science in general, and probably many other areas.
Since you don't have a PhD in any of those areas, you arrived at your certitude simply because you watched some videos or read books in which the speaker spoke passionately and with certitude.
The world is far too complex for an internet commentator with no credentials to refute mainstream consensus among trained economists and scientists.

>> ^chilaxe:
For those questioning it... the word 'insanity' is being used here to refer to disproven positions that deny reality to such a degree that it's useless for mainstream society to try to speak with the person.


I always hear about how true something is, but I never see any evidence for it. Can you please provide some evidence for the following:

1. Obama has no any communist/socialist tendencies
2. Nationalization and large public debt (currently $65 trillion, greater than the world GDP) in no way threatens the future of the US
3. Obama did not support infanticide in the named instance
4. Obama's relatives (including his grandma) did not claim he was born in kenya
5. Obama's mom could legally transfer citizenship
6. Obama's is not supporting a plan where the government pays for mortgages
7. Evidence a bankrupt government can fix a bankrupt economy
8. Evidence printing money out of thin air can correct a recession

I'm sorry but these are valid questions, theres nothing "insane" about them. If someone can provide supporting evidence for all 8 of those points I'll personally go through and watch your entire personal queue. Given how "insane" his claims were, the evidence should be really easy to find.

^Um... were we watching the same video?

Downvote for slandering Grimm without evidence.

It's not so much the difference of opinion as it is the craziness of opinion. He goes commie-godwin right off the bat, and then segues into infanticide? Really? You agree with that?

I don't imagine Alan Keyes would allow himself to be put through a psychological evaluation, so I can't get you official clinical documentation, but you are free to watch this video over and over to try to spot the glaring, bald-faced circumstantial evidence.

>> ^rougy:
Keyes, you are not a laughing matter either.


Funny, I was laughing...

So Ron Paul's reaction to the Israeli invasion of Gaza is that we should go to the gold standard?

This is almost as good as Alan Keyes giving his views on Global Warming.

Less fear, and more *comedy.

Check out Colorado's ballot. Apparently it is easy to run for president there.
By the way, expect long lines in CO and OH. The CO ballot is insane, and OH voters will have a ton to vote on. THREE pages.

http://www.co.pueblo.co.us/assets/0/187/191/716/29bae9c8-8df6-486c-9ac6-73693b47e85a.pdf
They have freakin'
"Boston Tea Party" and what looks to be a webpage ad, HeartQuake'08

John McCain / Sarah Palin - Republican
Barack Obama / Joe Biden - Democratic
Chuck Baldwin / Darrell L. Castle - Constitution
Bob Barr / Wayne A. Root - Libertarian
Cynthia McKinney / Rosa A. Clemente - Green
Jonathan E. Allen / Jeffrey D. Stath - HeartQuake ‘08
Gene C. Amondson / Leroy J. Pletten - Prohibition
James Harris / Alyson Kennedy - Socialist Workers
Charles Jay / Dan Sallis Jr. - Boston Tea
Alan Keyes / Brian Rohrbough - America’s Independent
Gloria La Riva / Robert Moses - Socialism and Liberation
Bradford Lyttle / Abraham Bassford - U.S. Pacifist
Frank Edward McEnulty / David Mangan - Unaffiliated
Brian Moore / Stewart A. Alexander - Socialist, USA
Ralph Nader / Matt Gonzalez - Unaffiliated
Thomas Robert Stevens / Alden Link - Objectivist