@rottenseed
you make some good points buckaroo but your post is ignoring the giant pink elephant in the room.
@Sagemind 's most excellent post gave that elephant a nod but i think it prudent to point directly at that giant hulking pustulent piece of pink elephant flesh.

shall we?
1.corporate america is NOT based on true capitalism (actual free market) but rather state-run capitalism.this translates to lower or non-existent tax revenue,government subsidies and outright bailouts.
in other words=socialism.

2.you state that a corporation has a "duty" to maximize profits.i would agree if you changed "duty" to "legal obligation".

3.this legal obligation to maximize profits has led to all kinds of inventive and clever ways to defraud the public and local municipalities,from having them pay for infrastructure to waste clean-up.the amount of money spent by public,tax-payer funds is staggering which of course=socialism.

4.corporate america has a literal army of 35,000 lobbyists in washington whose sole purpose is to manipulate legislatures to pass favorable laws (de-regulation).85% of ALL laws passed are actually written by corporate lobbyists.

5.since the abomination ruling of citizens united (fuck you alito) corporate america now has the unlimited access to our lawmakers.walmart spent tens of millions on the last election cycle,how much did you give? and who do you think those legislators are going to be listening to?
money=speech in this country.

6.a corporation is considered a person but this person has no empathy,remorse nor feelings of solidarity with fellow humans due to its very nature written into law.
otherwise known as a sociopath.

seewhatimsaying?
the corporate charter needs to be re-examined and/or re-written because what we have now is corporate welfare/socialism with all the benefits going to the top while the working class foots the bill.

vote with your wallet? sure.that would work to a point but many people are limited concerning options and walmart is the only place these folks can afford.
sometimes this economic situation is due to bad choices but more often it is just life kicking these people in the balls.

buck up and go grab some higher education?
sure...and that works how often?
im not kidding.go check the statistics.they are pathetic.
i bartend part time and there are 4 masters degrees and 8 bachelors where i work,all in different fields.ask them how their "higher education" paid off for them.
$100,000 in student debt loans all to be able to ask "would you like some cracked pepper sir"?

now lets punch that pink elephant straight in the balls shall we?
the suggestion that somehow if labor becomes organized and demands..and receives..a more viable living wage with some humane and decent benefits will somehow automatically translate into higher priced goods and eventual job loss is just corporate propaganda which originates from the reagan years.

this is absolute and utter bullshit all fed to us by the very corporations seeking to dominate and oppress its work force.

remember,it is the legal obligation of the corporate board of directors to "maximize profit" not "shoot itself in the foot".
the suggestion that somehow paying its employees a living wage translates to the destruction of the company is apocalyptic propaganda.

what has been done to the american worker is perverse.over the past thirty years we have seen the creation of either wage-slaves or debt slaves..or both.
any way you wish to look at it.we are slaves in one form or another.

i mean..just go check the numbers.
worker pay has stagnated for the past thirty years,while corporate profits have continually broken records.
do you seriously think that a unionized labor force will kill walmart?
not a chance and to suggest otherwise just indicates that the corporate propaganda has been quite effective.

walmart could pay a living wage AND offer affordable benefits and STILL would have cheap goods.
and every step of the way they would be "maximizing profits".

welcome to the united states of corporate america!
will that be cash or credit?

*politics
*controversy

I think those of us that are disillusioned with the 1%'s economic narrative need to understand how the conservative people see the occupy movement.

These conservative people really do think that poor people are people who haven't worked hard enough, or haven't gone to college or haven't pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps.

So we get conservatives that blame budget shortfalls on the 'extravagant' salaries of public school teachers.
We get conservatives who think that kids going into social work- should have $40,000 in student debt.
We get conservatives who believe that $7.25 an hour is just too much to pay for back-breaking work.

really, I can testify that liberals are guilty of group-think even more than conservatives are. so in the spirit of trying to absorb the tone of this conservative vomit...
*promote

@ghark "Even with a job these days many people struggle to pay off student debts (as the Fox interviewer mentions)."


She probably went to a fancy private school for 4 or 5 years, not to a community college for the first 2 years then transferring to a public university.

I went to a community college before transferring, and it worked flawlessly. It would have been nicely luxurious to spend those first 2 years at a 4-year university instead, but minimizing my debt load seemed more important because I knew I was going to voluntarily not pursue a career that would have high chances of a high initial income.

I suggest people with shows like Maddow and TYT advocate attending community colleges.

>> ^chilaxe:

@ghark
Even small liberal arts schools with no science departments or interactions with corporations have had sky-rocketing costs.
Doubling the size of university bureaucracies probably played a role. Other factors like skyrocketing healthcare costs & transitioning into complex technological organizations probably did as well.

@ghark said:
You may want to research the education system a little more deeply before making criticisms of those that decide to pursue academia. The US education system is becoming increasingly privatised, and the corporations making the profits are often underwritten in part by public funding. Can you think of another situation where risk is placed on the taxpayer, but profits go to the corporations? Do you think it's fair?
In addition, go research the cost of education in the US in the 1980's and then compare the increases in education cost compared to the CPI, you might be a little shocked. Perhaps back in the 1980's your argument held some merit, but we're in 2011, you may as well type purple monkey dishwasher 15 times for all the weight your argument holds.


Which schools are you referring to, and what costs have skyrocketed? I'm not disagreeing, but by simply saying costs have sky rocketed, you're being a little vague. My point was also not that costs shouldn't be increasing more than the CPI, but simply that because they have, Rychan's point that people are getting themselves into their own mess is very misplaced, things have changed since that viewpoint was valid - even with a job these days many people struggle to pay off student debts (as the Fox interviewer mentions).

And it also comes back to the issue, should education be considered a human right? If it really is a stupid idea to educate yourself in America these days (as Rychan seems to suggest is the case for many people), perhaps something should be done? Just because it may be a bad economic decision to educate onseself doesn't mean the only other option is to remain uneducated, you can pursue policy change that leads to a better education system, take a stand!

I agree with you on the bureaucracies issue, I actually worked for my local University for a while, the pay was good, the job was easy, and the management layers were incredibly deep, we had around 10-11 layers from the lowest workers to upper management. The focus was on marketing; we wanted to present the best image we possibly could to potential Australian tertiary students, it's a numbers game, the more students we had the more profit we made. I was there for presentations from our upper management (such as the pro vice chancellor) and the issues always revolved around the economics of university business and getting published in as many journals as possible rather than the quality of teaching.

A libertarian documentary recipe...

Take an idea that everyone can sympathize with (student debt)

add the federal reserve and government funding in relation to such

Note on how both governments and corporations are failing an ideal

Conclude that governments are the problem.

Now multinational corporate banks are the solution to educating the public. Win!

(what is with that horror movie background music)

>> ^village1diot:
That will never happen. I look at it like this.
These corporations are like a lion grrrrabbing a zebra by the throat. And every time we move the teeth just go deeper. They will never let go and its too late to do anything about it.
I can think of only one way to stop them at this point - a massive revolution by the people. In this country that is highly unlikely. We are surrounded by religious nutjobs who think Jesus is coming to take us away and could give a crap about this world. Men who care more about the size of their dick than anything else. And women who are always right, even when they are wrong, and only worry about their vanity. And I know that everyone doesn't fall into these categories, but too many do. Let's face it, us that care, we will never get enough support to back us on any issue that isn't in the corporate interest. They control everything, most important of which is information. They censor everything through the media and there is nothing that most people hear about that they don't want us to hear. As you can tell, I'm not optimistic about this situation at all.
<div><div style="margin: 10px; overflow: auto; width: 80%; float: left; position: relative;" class="convoPiece"> dannym3141 said:<img style="margin: 4px 10px 10px; float: left; width: 40px;" src="http://static1.videosift.com/avatars/d/dannym3141-s.jpg" onerror="ph(this)"><div style="position: absolute; margin-left: 52px; padding-top: 1px; font-size: 10px;" class="commentarrow">◄</div><div style="padding: 8px; margin-left: 60px; margin-top: 2px; min-height: 30px;" class="nestedComment box">These people should not be allowed to go around bullying people in this "free" world in which we live. They should be concerned that they'll never see their family for a few years, that'd make them think twice before pushing people around with green paper.
</div></div></div>

Mate i share your lack of enthusiasm, i think we've reached a critical apathy point, where mostly no one cares enough about anything to get active or get involved unless it's something completely off the scale. The position that we have allowed our politicians, banks, and businesses to get into is something we should be extremely ashamed of. And today the people who are growing up to become the next generation of politicians bankers and heads of business are undereducated (to make school stats go up), indisciplined (because they might sue us if we shout at them at school), greedy (because we tell all kids that they're capable of things that they are clearly not) and apathetic themselves.

Hey kids, did you fail/barely pass all your schooling and colleges? Don't worry, everyone goes to university nowadays. We've watered it down so that you can go and learn whilst the bright people who push this world and humanity to new heights get a more watered down education which is also now spread across too many students! ENJOY YOUR LIFE OF OVER-QUALIFIED MEDIOCRITY. NO WONDER PEOPLE WITH DEGREES ARE UNEMPLOYED, DEGREES AIN'T WORTH SHIT ANYMORE. How come we suddenly send trade occupations through universities? I know loads of electricians and such that say they have to UNTEACH people the university degree that they spend £12000 on before they can learn properly how to be an electrician. Suddenly apprenticeships and on-the-job experience isn't good enough, we need them to sit in a fucking classroom and get huge student debt to do a good job? I guarantee in 1 generation we'll have a shortage of quality electricians. All our electricians will have a PhD but not a fucking clue how to change a fucking lightbulb.

AND WE ONLY HAVE STUDENT DEBTS BECAUSE WE CAN'T AFFORD UNIVERSITY GRANTS BECAUSE 90% OF THE POPULATION NOW GOES TO A UNIVERSITY TO DO A DEGREE WHICH THEY DON'T NEED OR PROBABLY EVEN USE.

Oh my god i had typed "I won't rant though." Then when i went back to correct a spelling mistake, i'd already ranted.

>> ^Fade:
Interesting point about student debt once leaving school. Is that accurate in the states? quarter million dollars in debt before you've even started working?


Oh, heck no. I got my Bachelor's from a fairly expensive private university. If I'd relied on entirely on loans instead of scholarships, I'd be something like 90k in debt. A public university would typically cost half that.

You'd have to go to an expensive private college then follow it up immediately with a prestigious graduate education to be 250k in debt. But with that kind of education, you wouldn't have much difficulty paying it off over the typical ten year loan period.

Interesting point about student debt once leaving school. Is that accurate in the states? quarter million dollars in debt before you've even started working?