*Promote sustainable land use. Those interested in this might also be interested in permaculture.

Savory's extended talk is *related=http://videosift.com/video/Alan-Savory-Reversing-Desertification-With-Livestock

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

The carrying capacity for Earth is at least 10 billion humans.
We just broke 7 billion and only 1 billion of us are starving.
And that's only cause greedy wasteful societies like The United States.
Add to that the knowledge that as a country develops, its birth rate tends to level off or decline even.
Human population will level off as well. 12 billion maybe?
Add to that, sustainable technologies and philosophies like vertical indoor farms, thorium reactors and permaculture.
7 billion+ humans really doesn't seems that dangerous for Earth or ourselves.
>> ^Ryjkyj:
This has nothing to do with overpopulation... move along.



That's exactly my point. Why are people so goddamn defensive about overpopulation? What use could we possibly have for filling the earth to "carrying capacity?"

The carrying capacity for Earth is at least 10 billion humans.

We just broke 7 billion and only 1 billion of us are starving.
And that's only cause greedy wasteful societies like The United States.

Add to that the knowledge that as a country develops, its birth rate tends to level off or decline even.

Human population will level off as well. 12 billion maybe?

Add to that, sustainable technologies and philosophies like vertical indoor farms, thorium reactors and permaculture.

7 billion+ humans really doesn't seem that dangerous for Earth or ourselves.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

This has nothing to do with overpopulation... move along.

i've been involved in my local occupy movement, this is my opinion.

5) nothing changes in the immediate, but communities are created and begin to solve their own problems locally. texas occupies are working on online actions and compiling lists of local, independent businesses to disperse ... encouraging people do their xmas shopping there. the goal of the online ops for several occupies we're working with (online) is to cut into 4th and 1st quarter sales. they're starting to work with permaculture farms and local farms and community garden activists. these ideas and works are instantly shared with other occupy groups. these ideas are shared instantly online to people who support the cause but can't camp out on the sidewalk indefinentely. I don't think occupy will compel any real policy change in the immediate. it would take a constitutional amendment to meet their major demand. perhaps politicans will begin to adjust their rhetoric a bit, but the collective political conscience of these groups is high enough to see through that. nothing major will happen. but, i do think communities are being made. and communities are what change people lives.

also, to address the winter statements.... texas occupy is working with our friends in northern states to invite them down here for the winter! i'm sure other states with more moderate winters are doing the same. they may have to migrate, but i dont think it's going away that quickly.

Comrade,

Good to have a discussion. I'll try to keep this up with ya, but I'm kinda busy
Lets duel

>> ^griefer_queafer:
Point is, isn't this just merely self-regulation?

Suppose that the leaders pay attention to scientific findings, and they realize that things have to change. Yes, the ‘insurance’ is a form of self-regulation for capitalism to increase industry and corporate markets. But, as is typical of a capitalist, they are trying to make a business out of saving the planet, at the risk of millions of lives.
My friend, Corporations are merely the bourgeoisie in a new form. Corporations are merely organized institutions to serve bourgeoisie interest, an interest in gaining capital.
The regulation is not a true regulation, however. What they are doing here is selling an idea of ‘regulation’. True regulation would be addressing all the points in our economic systems and finding the ‘open systems’ and making them a ‘closed system’, in the permaculture sense. Reduction of waste. Control of production to meet the needs, not the wants. We don’t need to produce thousands of cars that will never get sold solely for the insane and desperate hope that they somehow could.
>> ^griefer_queafer:
Please respond to this question: what if 'growth' as it occurs today, also occurs concomitantly with POSITIVE effects to the planet?
Also, please make 'growth' relevant to our neo-capitalist moment.

neo-capitalist? In what ways have we moved beyond the worker? Are you to tell me that an office worker is not alienated in the cubicle? Are you to tell me that the the sweatshop labor in china, Indonesia, India, etc are not workers? Are you to tell me that nowhere on the planet, workers are paid in slave wages with the boss reaping profit off surplus value? Are you to tell me that workers control their hours, control their pay based on labor and the value of the product?

I think you have some tarnished definitions. Corporations are the logical outcome of Capitalism. Corporations operate on capitalist principles. We do not live in a post-industrial society. Manufacturing and productive have increased substantially, less workers are needed for high-tech facilities, but in the United States and other developed Imperialist countries, we don’t see the worker. We are alienated from them, and we exist as fragmented consumers. We are needed to buy these products so this economy and corporations can continue to exist. Neo-capitalism? Perhaps, but capitalism nonetheless. The changes aren’t as substantial as it may seem. Things have just become harder to see in post-modernism.
So what’s growth?
Destruction of the natural environment, say, the Amazon, for cattle ranches. Increased production to meet an increased demand. This is unsustainable, because Capitalism favors the increased demand. What do corporations want Americans to do? Consume. BUY BUY BUY. This is all very obvious. We see it everyday. Hell, just look at Christmas. Where do the resources come from to make these products and where do they end? We take it from the earth and it winds up in a dumpster or landfill. The resources aren’t returned, there is no equal exchange, energy is wasted in the inefficiency of our system.
Paper pulp released into the rivers. Environmental damage of the Niger River Delta for the oil, with acid rain so powerful it eats the tin-roofs of the shacks were the local villagers live. People that live on that land that don’t get ANYTHING from the energy companies except the corporate hired gunmen to maintain a ‘favorable business climate'. How then, is this 'favorable bussiness climate' POSTIVE for the planet? Its not positive for the planet or for any of us.
>> ^griefer_queafer:
Why is it a short term goal if the idea is to fundamentally change the ways in which 'growth' affects the planet?


But they aren’t trying to fundamentally change anything. They want the Maldives to go under so they can sell them the fucking life rafts! Capitalists/Corporations don’t give a shit about the mass amount of human suffering that will occur. They just want to maintain their profit margin, seize the planets resources, privatize everything, and maintain control over the worker. You are a worker, I am a worker. Even intellect and academia is a commodity that is bought and sold. We are the proletariat. We have a boss, we don’t control our hours, our labor is sold for surplus value, at the cost of our liberties and our security on this planet.

ahh yes. i remember his TEDtalk on permaculture.

*howto save our soil.

Y'know, if the folks that talk change really wanted it, instead of worring about the ozone layer, bludgeoning of baby seals, wobal glorming and politics, would return to the heartlands of the U.S., buy the cheap property that walmart has provided in foreclosures, etc., revitalize these areas with permaculture, family farms, dairies, etc., and refuse to shop this monster.....each one that had to close its doors as these small towns with new blood created a new livelihood and paradigm, would be another reason to dance on the ashes of the old world, which is the one we are in now, whose inhabitants sensibilities, are firmly planted up the collective ass.


Believe it, we have heard the whining before, of folks who apologetically say, that they are forced to shop here, that there is no-where else, blah blah blah blah blah....BULLSHIT! That pathetic excuse reeks, you create alternatives to bullshit, while there is still time......

That Hindu bomb is the best....aishwarya rai...

Sorries, must say that to expect children to play nice and share, is a tall order.....if space is the real issue with regard to the Palestinians and Israelis, no-one should have to put up with asses and elbows, how about permaculture in the desert? How about establishing Lebanon as the new Jerusalem, let the Palestinians have a rebuild party with the Lebanese, oh and, lose that religious baggage while yer at it...I would personnally have the sentiment, "Never Again" just like the Jews do....Semetic and proud, semetic and loud...

Even the musings here, of some bizzaro, ideal choggie world, are as hair-brained as trying to use logic and reason with regard to culture, and borders, in this seemingly absurd, never-ending drama.

The world will likely snap against the strain of man's collective inhumanity toward fellow mouth-breathers...