@marr

"I believe it to be full of facts and truths, carried in the meaning of metaphors."

I just don't think these facts and truths (in the bible or any other book) are the source of human morals. "Aesop's Fables" is also full of truths as metaphor. I do appreciate your responses, but they do somewhat demonstrate the uselessness of an atheist discussing/arguing the bible, or god, or religion with a true believer (and vice-versa). There are no corners to get backed into in your world. I'm not ripping on you, marr. I just see where this would go. We can just agree to disagree and call it good.

Out of curiosity, can you, marr, or any other true believers in the bible as the word of your god explain the true meaning of metaphors like those I've pasted below? I'm sincerely curious how you address such passages and not making an argument one way or the other. They talk about slavery and murder, and I just really can't imagine the goodness this god had in mind for the humans he is supposed to love so much. There's really so much murder and hatred preached in the bible I find it not surprising how strongly "peaceful" and "loving" followers call for the murder of innocent people. (I know a devout Christian or two who often express their desire for the entire Middle East to be nuked to hell.) It seems Shirley Phelps (who protests at funerals) really seems to be following this god's word to the letter.

Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT - Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 NAB - If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Leviticus 20:10 NLT - If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

Ephesians 6:5 NLT - Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT - However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Exodus 21:2-6 NLT - If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.

Exodus 21:20-21 NAB - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

marr, I disagree with you almost completely, but thank you for your considerate and non-volatile responses. It's almost like a real, what did we used to call them? Oh, a discussion.

marr wrote: "The only way to know God is to have a relationship with Him"
umm, it begs the question: which god ? there are thousands of different gods that have been documented.

I like how Dawkins says he won't talk about the text of the bible as it is akin to arguing with someone about mother goose.
but I will...
God didn't lose his only child, Jesus isn't literally his child since they are of one substance in the trinity. In order for him to count as a 'real' sacrifice he would need to have been 'actually' dead, but since 'death had no hold over him' and he came back to life, it wasn't really a sacrifice now was it?

the Trinity
is not found in the New Testament texts. It is the result of later development, e.g. the Athanasian Creed. It is the result of harminization, the attempt to put a polytheistic belief structure into monotheistic trappings. You end up with a bunch of illogical, self-contradictory statements, but you will go to hell if you don't believe it.

hey Marr: I thought you'd appreciate knowing this... The historicity of Jesus the Christ has no basis.

1, Jesus the Christ, based of extant extra-biblical writings, is unheard of, and cannot be located in the century in which he was reported to have lived.
2, The multitude of followers of Jesus the Christ, based on extant extra-biblical writings, are unheard of and cannot be located in the century in which Jesus lived.
3, The teachings of Jesus the Christ, based on extant biblical writings, are also unheard of and did not affect any extant writings of contemporary extra-biblical writers.
4, There can be found no record of heresies concerning Jesus the Christ.

marr, that's one of the most lucid descriptions of America's problems I've ever heard...proving yet again that the sift is the thinking person's youtube.

I'm perfectly fine with anyone who doesn't interpret the Bible as completely literal and the exact word of God. There are far too many contradictions in it (for example, we're told to love and fear God, yet in one passage, it is stated that there is no love in fear). I feel this way because I regard the Bible as a rule book to base our morality on. Although no longer completely necessary in a modern day world, at one point people needed to be reminded what was right.

So long as Christians can come to a point where they realize that it isn't fact based, like marr has done, then we can begin to move forward.

@marr:

Then how can you believe ANY of it? My god (pun intended), there are as many interpretations of the bible as there are people who read it. If it really is the word of god, then it MUST be factual if you believe god to be infallible. If you don't believe it to be completely factual, then how can you believe it is the word of god? If you believe some parts are literal and some are open for interpretation, then who decides which is which? You? Your pastor? Religion keeps trying to cram viability into the cracks of scientific knowledge. Always trying to reinvent itself so that science and religion can co-exist peacefully. Who are you to say the bible isn't all factual? Is your grip on belief so tenuous that you must create your own set of rules? "God is outside of time"? Who says? I wonder what concept of time they had around 80AD.

And, cave beetles is your example of something becoming less complex? Strengthens evolution if you ask me. If they lost their eyes, how do you know other senses didn't become more complex? Maybe losing eyesight was due to evolutionary pressure for using other senses that increased survival. I don't know, but you surely don't. I just refuse to fill in the blanks with "god did it". Throw away the Kent Hovind DVDs and think for yourself man!

@doremifa:

"As an atheist-leaning agnostic, I think it is important to show tolerance (cults are a different story)."

Atheist-leaning agnostic? Lol! Sounds like you are almost on one side of the fence but your pant leg is caught on a barb. Evolution doesn't disprove Santa either. Still think he exists? Might exist? Your assertation that science can't disprove god implies that science is trying to disprove god. No more than trying to disprove Santa. And I thinks all religions are cults of a sort.

"Evolution indicates that these biological machines we are in become less complex as well as more complex"

Marr - could you explain this and give an example of what you mean?

Attacking evangelical literalists is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel! The majority of Christians are not literalists. As marr pointed out, the bible is a highly metaphorical work that was not intended to be taken literally. Dawkins and his ilk have reacted to religious fundamentalism by propagating their own brand of intolerant atheist fundamentalism which paints all religions as inherently stupid, evil, irrational, and incompatible with science. All fundamentalism is bad - and atheist fundamentalism is no exception.

marr, seriously, I must admit feeling a little sorry for you, even despite the fact you have a solid reason to rejoice: for once, quite unlike with that religion-thingy, your wish to believe (marr: "...I want to believe this is a parody/hoax.") might just be satisfied by a fact. really, the thought that one might ignore even the acknowledgments to Dawkins at the end... I mean what does it take to be that blind to reason?

Marr.. Unfortunately, I'd have a lot easier time beliving the bible, if a lot of it wasnt comparable to the events that happened to buddha..and Zorroaster, Both of which pre-date the bible.

Both were born of a Virgin (from an angel), zorroaster was the first to propose the notion of "One God, One Devil"

..Not to mention the theory of addam and eve, means we're all very, very, very, VERY Inbred.
And, If the addam and eve theory is correct, How do we have such diversity? Skin colour, Language, Appearances, all this came from two people?

I'm sorry, but I can't exactly trust a religion that activly took traditions from other religions to convert members, Christmas trees from the Vikings, Painting easter eggs from the Pagans i belive.

Human male - John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever
Human female - Los del Río - "Macarena"
Night elf male - Michael Jackson - "Billie Jean"
Night elf female - Alizée - "J'en ai marre"
Gnome male - Unknown
Gnome female - Salsa
Dwarf male - Kazatchok, better known as the Cossack Dance (Russian Folkdance), also some Saturday Night Fever moves
Dwarf female - Irish Step-Dancing
Draenei male - Daler Mehndi - "Tunak Tunak Tun"
Draenei female - Belly dancing based on Colombian singer Shakira

Orc male - MC Hammer - "U Can't Touch This"
Orc female - Juvenile - "Back That Azz Up"
Troll male - Capoeira, Brazilian dance of African martial arts inspiration
Troll female - Shakira - "Whenever, Wherever"
Undead male - Mosher/Hardrocker (Headbanging, Pogo and Airguitar) or Death Metal
Undead female - Goth-style dance (sometimes called the "weeping willow")
Tauren male - Noodle dance / Raise the Roof / Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tauren female - Electric Slide
Blood elf male - Napoleon Dynamite
Blood elf female - According to the Burning Crusade Collector's Edition DVD, the blood elf female dance is made up of excerpts from various Britney Spears videos. More accurately, the dance was taken from a Korean "iDance" video. The dancer seems to take a few moves from Britney, but otherwise it should be stated that the choreography is hers.

Blatantly stolen from http://www.wowwiki.com/Dancing

All these shows do the same thing. It's like an unfair playground fight.
They invite someone who agrees with them.
Then they invite someone they both disagree with...and gang up on him/her.
Even bill marr does it on occasion. super slate linkee rickegee

Great use of cast member Phil La Marr (i.e. "not again!!").