Hamas took over the Gaza Strip after a brief civil war back in 2006 / 2007 . Before that Fatah was a major Palestinian political party that began in 1965 as the Palestinian National Liberation Movement. Fatah wanted to negotiate back to the 67 boundaries.

Hamas – Does not recognize Israel, but accepts a Palestinian state on 1967 borders
Fatah – Recognizes Israel, wants to build a state on 1967 borders






Israel should stop advancing and leave it to the Palestine to find and and capture Hamas.
To pressure this no aid to Palestine. Their desperation will weed out Hamas.

A reasoned and relatively factual position. Congratulations, but….
In my and many expert’s opinions the deadly indiscriminate pressure is exactly what pushes desperate and grieving innocent civilian Palestinians into Hamas’s arms. You would create two terrorists for every one caught with the inhumane treatment of the civilian population…and commit a serious war crime in the process.

Israel should abandon all expansionist settlements from the last 30 years and free the Palestinian citizens from the oppressive genocidal apartheid they’ve forced on the population for decades. That would end the conflict tomorrow, instead Israel has telegraphed its intent to take over Gaza militarily and occupy it again…and America stands by their side, but not all Americans.

If America had spent 10% of what we spend supplying Israel with weapons they use on civilians instead on building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, roads in Gaza, the Palestinians would not rightly see us as racist enemies, and might have the resources and inclination to oust Hamas. But we don’t.

Palestine gets no aid. You can’t withhold something that never existed. The reason Hamas gets any support is they do supply Gaza with food and medicine while Israel and America just embargo entire populations because a terrorist group lives in the country. Think if the world did the same, bombing cities flat and starving America because the Boogaloo Boys live in America.

Hamas is not Palestine, they’re the warlord gang that took over from the intentionally weakened Palestinian parliament and the only group supporting Palestinian civilians (while also using them as shields and cannon fodder).

Hamas fucked around, but Israel is making innocent Palestinian civilians “find out”. That’s a serious war crime that should put every Israeli soldier in prison, and get Netanyahu executed.

Tragically it's all more complicated than anyone can really state, right? I mean, if you had a 30 book(10k pages a book) series solely on the conditions in the region of Palestine between 1930 and today you'd still have so much material to cut, you could limit all 30 books to only 1 sides POV.

The closest I see to shortcutting things, is trying view what is likely to happen in the future, and from that maybe what one might try and do.

The trouble being there's so little one can do. The reality is that Israeli military strength compared to Palestine is completely and entirely one sided, and thus Israel can and will do whatever it wishes to militarily. It's all their choice, period. In fairness to Israel, you have to note that Hamas as stated in their own charter, given that same power would've already cleansed the entirety of Israel and have created their own single state 'final' solution.

It's also not actually about Palestine vs. Israel, which should be obvious given the fact of Israel's military dominance. Israel IS really facing existentially threats of it's own, just not directly from Palestine, and instead from ALL of it's neighbours. That state of constantly requiring Israel to be capable of winning an existential war since it's inception has kept things in a perpetual state of near-war, and more often proxy-war with the Palestiniances as the pawns of alternately Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others depending which time and region we choose to look at.

Predictively, that gives us that Isreal can not, under any circumstances, accept conditions to exist where any party(in particular Iran as the main backer) views the "Al Aqsa Flood operation" as a success. That means Israel will do whatever they deem necessary to ensure that happens and Iran in particular views that operation as a mistake. Nothing the UN or any of the rest of us say or do can change that.

Agreed, the details are many, but trying to see what will happen in the future is simple, it’s the same thing that’s been happening in the past. Israel will continue to illegally expand into territory they agreed belongs to Palestinians, will continue to militarily support and defend the murderous settlers that murder Palestinian families and steal their land constantly with no repercussion at all, and will use any resistance to that violent expansion as an excuse to abuse and further control and murder the remaining citizens while blaming them for their plight.
That’s exactly what’s happening today.
The areas hit by Hamas were all Palestinian land stolen by settlers with full military support, not in Israel but in what was recently Palestine. The expansionist invasion continues, it’s never stopped, and some people don’t understand why the remaining civilians imprisoned in the ghetto by Israel, often with no food, water, or medicine, might revolt and throw stones, but you totally understand why the invaders should get to flatten entire populated cities if one of theirs gets hurt.

The population of Israel is 15 times Gaza, but the casualties of this 70 year conflict are statistically all Palestinians. Just this latest conflict has seen under 1400 Israeli casualties and over 15000 Palestinian civilians…nearly 5000 YOUNG children. THE NORM IS MUCH WORSE, normally this retaliation would come after fireworks hurt 4 settlers almost killing one and damaging their stolen house.

There’s something Americans can do. Vote for a president that will cut all military aid to countries that commit war crimes regularly. Simple, but not easy.

Israeli military is only so strong because we support them. Without American weapons and support, Israel would be a long distant memory of a short lived immigrant invasion.

Yes, Hamas has rhetorically been as genocidal as Israel (also totally genocidal)…but they have zero ability to follow through, while Israel is actively committing genocide today with the most advanced weaponry on the planet we supply, and for the last 70 years. If Israel directly eliminated Palestine as they have stated they will, they would start another war with every neighbor, this time likely without support. Otherwise they would have followed through 40+ years ago. This newest “occupation” may be the last. There will be no rebuilding under occupation, and there are few habitable structures left in Gaza. It’s a small town of 750000 people flattened, under total embargo, and under a shoot on sight order from their oppressors.

Yes, Israel is fighting its neighbors….100% because of their treatment of Palestinians and blatant intent to ignore any borders in their expansion. Combined with Iran their neighbors aren’t 1/2 the military power Israel is thanks 100% to America supplying advanced weapons and defense platforms for decades at our expense.

Invading occupying military forces have no right to complain they are threatened…that’s like saying we should hand squatters AR-15s and grenades because they keep being threatened by the home owners and the neighborhood, and the squatters have every right to shoot neighbors in their own yards if they seem threatening, but the neighbors and home owners have no rights whatsoever, not even the right to leave home because that threatens the squatters. Not even the right of self defense when the squatters invite their family over to take the neighbor’s homes.
I prefer shooting squatters and dumping the bodies in the sewer where they belong. Zionists are all squatters….well armed squatters.

The squatters do not have the right to murder the neighbors who signed the petition to remove the violent squatters. The squatters are always the wrong party no matter what. Period. End on line.


Because Israel intends to act unilaterally and violently to ensure their defense and continued expansion, always at the expense of their neighbors, they should be abandoned by the rest of the world. Murderous expansionist invading occupying racist armies get zero sympathy, and there’s no such thing as an Israeli civilian, they do not exist, only those yet to be military, andtive military, and those in reserve…conversely there’s no such thing as a Palestinian soldier in Gaza…does not exist.

Militaries that attack civilian populations are war criminals…every time. Yes, that includes America in Afghanistan, but bears noting the Afghans protected Alkaida (sp?), the Palestinian government and most civilians do not support Hamas.
I do not want to be supporting foreign war crimes with my tax dollars.

I disagree with you on the "Zionists are all squatters" and related bits, but on the whole you've characterized alot of what is happening correctly. I can not accept though that 1930s and 40s Jewish Europeans seeking refuge amongst an existing community of Jewish Palestinians was the 'invasion' that Arab narratives claim it as.


That's also largely academic in the sense of what will happen. Israel is NOT so dominant that they can easily defeat Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Jordan or Saudi Arabia individually, let alone should they join forces. Perhaps more importantly, regardless of what the true comparison of military strength is, the neighbouring nations mentioned are NOT convinced. Al Jazeera spent the first two weeks after the attack crowing about how this proved how weak and ineffective Israel truly is and harolded the beginning of the end for them.

My two predictions:
1. Israel will continue to do anything they deem necessary to ensure the attack in October is viewed by Iran and the Arab world as another Naqba, rather than a victory.
2. Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran and to lesser degrees Jordan and Saudi will continue channeling weapons and support to any and all militant groups near Israel(mostly Palestine) to encourage and ensure they continue launching attacks into Israeli territory in the same continuous effort they have for the last decades.

The worst losers in it, as have been for the last decades you've noted, will continue to be the Palestinian people. Angry young Palestinians will be armed , trained and recruited with foreign money to attack the Israeli 'aggressor'. Thus leading to Israeli reprisal, more dead Palestinians and more angry young recruits.


I think my biggest point of difference with you is I'm not content to ignore the absolutely enormous role of other nations than Israel in the plight of the Palestinian people.

In short-The small population of Arab natives along with a native Jewish minority welcomed a relatively small number of European Jewish refugees in the (edit:20’s and early) 30’s while under British rule (but with a date set for their independence by the League of Nations, a date that came and went without ever establishing a Palestinian state). Then in the 40’s (even by mid 30’s)the Jewish minority, America, and England ignored their pleas to minimize immigration, ignored immigration laws, and invited a major invasion, so many European Jews came illegally that the Arab natives quickly became the minority, then had all rights stripped by the now well armed invaders that now claimed their land and property…invaders that kept coming by the millions. How is that not an invasion of squatters?
It’s a complete abandonment of the Palestinian Mandate the Brits ruled under, which was allowed internationally after ww1 for the sole purpose of getting Palestine in a position to rule themselves, something the Brits failed to even try then actively sabotaged by supporting the mass immigration of millions of European Jews, and was the biggest possible “fuck off and die” to the Palestinian people that had cooperated fully with the international plan for their independent future that was unceremoniously stripped from them and handed to Israel.
From that point, details don’t matter so much. Invading occupying forces don’t get to whine because the natives won’t just go away and die….at least I’m not listening when they do. Want to stop being attacked, stop murdering innocents and taking land.

I wonder why you think Israel is not so dominant seeing as they already proved repeatedly their military dominance even when their neighbors band together. Not one of the countries you mentioned has an advanced military, they are last gen at best, really two or more generations behind, and have third world resources not trillions to spend. Iraq proved that advanced weapons beat numbers hands down every single time. Unless Iran gets a nuke capable of getting through the highest levels of missile defense on the planet, their “neighbors” (Palestines allies) pose no actual threat to Israel and a pretty minor threat to the expansionist settlers invading Palestine.

I never ignored any rolls of the neighbors supporting, arming, and instigating unrest…but those roles are minuscule compared to the actions of Israel. Nothing recruits for Hamas like the Israeli army. Nothing creates more terrorists than murderous settlers. No other factor has 1% the effect that Israel’s own actions do in creating enemies.
Murderous expansionist settlers should be eliminated with prejudice immediately. They are the biggest factor driving Israel’s murderous regime to murder more innocents.
If Israel acted civilly instead of treating the natives like the Nazis treated them, its neighbors couldn’t easily convince angry teens to pick up guns and shoot Israelis. Give the Palestinians something to lose, or they’ll have nothing to lose, a chip on their shoulder, and a clear enemy responsible for their plight. This is the official recipe for a terrorist.

Blaming the neighbors is like claiming N Carolina is RESPONSIBLE for all shootings in N Y because some guns used are procured there…nonsense. They are complicit, but minimally so. It’s the shooters motives you need to look at, not the store they use. Why are they so ready to sacrifice their lives to just shoot or throw rocks AT Israel (99/100 times hitting nothing)? Because they have nothing to lose but life in an ever shrinking ghetto ruled over by a foreign racist regime that wants them just gone and is more than happy to starve children to death and bomb refugee camps to accomplish that goal.
The neighbors didn’t invade, expel, ghettoize, and gleefully murder the Palestinian people, that was Israel.

Blaming the victims is not an argument that will win many over…and no question the Palestinian people are the TRUE and only victims.

Where are the European countries now…the same ones that facilitated the Jewish invasion should be obligated to enforce the borders, and/or take the Palestinian refugees and free them from the ghetto/prison Israel keeps them in….but none are.

Side note- I keep hearing people who support Palestinians described as anti semitic. It bears noting that European Jews, the VAST majority of Israelis, are NOT Semitic…but all Palestinians are. Being pro-Israel is actually and factually anti-Semitic.

"welcomed a relatively small number of European Jewish refugees in the 30’s while under British rule"
The Jewish population in Palestine approximately doubled from 84k in 1922 to 175k in 1931, and tensions already started pretty heavily then in 1931. The Arab narrative is pretty emphatic that the invasion start in the 1920s(and unspoken, the resistance and tension internally between Jew and Arab too).


"Then in the 40’s the Jewish minority, America, and England ignored their pleas to minimize immigration, ignored immigration laws, and invited a major invasion, so many European Jews came illegally..."

Come now, don't play dumb, you left out any reason why European Jews might do this outside of 'launching an invasion'. What other motive might 1940's Jewish Europeans have had to ignore immigration laws to migrate out of Europe????


That's where your narrative and mine clash irrevocably. I count the refugee flight from 1940s Europe to be even more desperate than the plight the Palestinians in Gaza face today. I can not accept your POV where upon arriving in Palestine and facing violence and discrimination there too, that it's just plain and simply obvious that the Jewish people's are invaders and bad guys with no right to an existence in the land they fled to.

You know, unless you want to credit Trump's MAGA approach to the southern border as valid cause it's awful similar, save that the Jewish people were facing much more desperate circumstances

If a hint is needed for why the 1940s immigration happened, folks all over western cities are spray painting logos right now to remind us all.

Link below is to my tiny province's capital, but it's hard to find cities that aren't seeing it swastika's popping up all over. The left is suddenly all soft though now on the punch a nazi policy...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/anti-semitic-graffiti-removed-from-pedestrian-underpass-1.7023036

Yes. What’s your point? You seem to agree with me, except you go back to the 20’s instead of early 30’s. I’m not a Palestine scholar, sorry if I get details or dates slightly wrong, sources vary on many points. It doesn’t change my point, that under British rule European Jews were allowed to immigrate in huge numbers despite opposition from the native population that was being overwhelmed by increasing unwanted forced immigration. At first it was accepted even encouraged by the empathetic natives, but quickly became an overwhelming unwanted invasion of people intent on taking over, not some moderate number of refugees looking for temporary refuge.

Who the fuck cares what the reason they wanted to invade was? Palestinians weren’t responsible for their plight, but still stood ready to help until invaded and subjugated harshly by the invaders.
Should Venezuelans be allowed to take over Pennsylvania because they want out of Venezuela for good reason? Or Chinese? Or any African? Or Central American? Certainly Haitians have it bad enough to make it ok to take a state for themselves! Yes, Europe was dangerous…for anyone. That’s not an excuse to invade, murder another person and steal their land and subjugate their descendants for decades, but that’s what they did…and what you’re attempting to excuse.

Well, that explains it then. You think because the Jews had it worse once, it excuses being the Nazis today. I do not, I believe it gives them more reason to never be anything like the Nazis, not emulate them. The Palestinian plight is worse than many Jews in Europe besides Poland or Germany. They’re already in the ghetto, not free to travel and maybe get out. They’re already oppressed, subjugated, starved, dehydrated, often without power or communications, and 100% under the thumb and control of their oppressors. Sounds pretty shitty to me. Your family murdered at a whim with no repercussions sounds pretty bad. Your ancestral home taken by force and family shot for existing sounds fairly bad. I’m not sure how you think it’s OK because someone else maybe had it worse once.

When they “arrived in Palestine”, it was as an illegal unwanted invasion intent on taking over and expelling or eradicating the native population. They deserved violence 100%. The population was doing more than their share accepting refugees, then for their humanity was invaded and dehumanized in their own country. No excuse can make that acceptable unless it had happened in Germany post war.

Yes, Jews were the bad guys, invading a land they had and have no right to. You got it! They didn’t even have a right to refugee status there, it was a gift, they absolutely had no right to take control and possession by force, nor to become the inhuman monsters they were fleeing in Northern Europe.

Absolutely not. What even was his plan, I ask you. It wasn’t securing the borders.

I support the plan to FUND border parol and immigration courts to not only secure the border but repair the immigration process that does not function today. With a functioning immigration process, most would use it, making stopping illegal entry much easier.

I support refugee camps in the East Texas desert, not open release before processing.

I absolutely do not support actual open borders, nor allowing other countries to just send plane and train and boatloads of unvetted people in in numbers that would make natives the minority in quick fashion, nor do I support returning Texas (including Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, and New Mexico) to the Mexicans even though they are fleeing near the same level of fear, oppression and death from narco gangs and have some hereditary claims (which European Jews did not, they were mostly not Semitic genetically). I disagree the circumstances were much more desperate in the 30’s outside of Germany, and I disagree that the choices are Trumpism or no-border free-for-alls.

Hint- Not being 100% free of fear is no excuse for becoming the invading Nazis themselves. The Nazis used fear of the other as an excuse for expansionist inhumanity too….it’s not one.
Having lived through fascist oppression one would think they would be vehemently opposed to it, but they are instead relishing it.
Look at Netanyahu’s face when he talks about crushing and eradicating Palestinians, he’s really enjoying it.

If your group is suddenly being lambasted from all sides, you might consider why, not just whine that it’s unfair and scary. There’s good reason for rising anti Zionist sentiment today…and many on both sides aren’t bright enough to distinguish that from anti Jewish sentiment.

In some places, the six pointed star is the most prevalent symbol of murderous fascist hatred. Guaranteed it’s freshly painted on hundreds of flattened buildings today, many with dead children still inside. That’s a bit worse than a kid’s provocative tag under an overpass. Other recent instances include mosques burnt down and tagged with star of Davids. Don’t get it twisted, don’t excuse violence over fear.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2020-07-27/ty-article/.premium/west-bank-mosque-set-on-fire-vandalized-with-hebrew-graffiti/0000
017f-f494-d47e-a37f-fdbcd6f20000

"Who the fuck cares what the reason they wanted to invadeflee was?"

Characterization matters a little here, no?

"They had a right to refugee status there, not to take control and possession by force"

Which is at the heart of things.

The Arab narrative is that Jews arrived guns loaded and set about pillaging, killing and invading as soon as they had sufficient numbers, while the poor domestic Arab population had only been trying to assist and welcome in the refugees...

Which is ahistorical propaganda.

The reality is that for the most part, the European Jews arriving in Palestine were refugees and acting like refugees. Meaning they mostly just wanted to be able to provide food, shelter and safety for the families, just like everyone else. Most of them tried to set about doing this by legally purchasing land.

Lots of the local Arabs similarly were content to get along.

At that same time though, there were hardcore Zionists among the Jewish arrivals AND there were xenophobic elements willing to use violence within the Arab population too.

The tensions rose as the populations rose, but largely as a result of a large people being displaced, and NOT as the planned invasion you describe. The local Arab population started to band together to refuse to work, trade or sell to Jews. Violence broke out instigated separately on smallish scales by BOTH sides. Escalating violence followed, again back and forth between sides.

I'm in a camp that has a hard time blaming either the domestic Arab population for distress at the huge influx of refugees, nor for the European Jewish people having a low tolerance for discrimination and violence directed there way solely for being Jewish.

I see it as a huge mess, but with two large populations of Jewish and Arab people in Palestine acting not terribly unreasonably under circumstances of extreme pressure.

I think it's lazy and convenient to just declare 'invasion' so that you can simplify it all down to right/wrong and good guy/bad guy....

Edit: I misunderstood …. When you flee to somewhere you aren’t welcome, you invaded. That’s not characterization, it’s definition. If my home isn’t safe so I force my way into yours, I invaded your home…even if my friend down the street said it was ok.
It’s not a legitimate motive to invade a foreign country and murder, subjugate, and ghettoize its inhabitants because you aren’t safe where you live. There is no legitimate motive for those actions.

I think you take great liberty deciding the “Arab narrative”. That may be the Hamas narrative, it’s not the Palestinian’s history, and I think few claim it is. At first they were and acted like refugees, welcomed by Arab natives, some of which were Jews themselves, then shortly after began exponentially increasing immigration to overpower the natives, coming armed. They had no right to take by force food, shelter, and safety from those who had offered it to a much smaller portion of needy Jews…they in fact had an obligation to do the exact opposite and minimize their impact on their TEMPORARY HOSTS, and ensure their benefactors didn’t suffer for their generosity. This was not even a fleeting thought for the invaders.

The violent Zionists were intentionally courted and invited then supported and encouraged by those you say were “getting along”, so your point is misguided.

That native population was displaced by a concerted effort to forcibly immigrate en masse and seize control. The natives eventually balked, but too late and the overwhelming masses of armed violent Jewish invaders took over.

I’m in a camp that doesn’t give a shit about religion, they’re all idiotic nonsense, but believes in law and order, and invading people seizing control by force and dehumanizing the natives is not a thing I’m prepared to gloss over or erase with one sided details. I don’t gloss over my own country’s inhumane origins of genocidal racism against our natives, and I support any measure that returns anything they’ve been stripped of.

I’m also in a camp that doesn’t think it’s ok to murder and rape Peter to pay Paul for Patrick’s bill. The Palestinians bear zero responsibility for Jews treatment in Europe. None.

I’m also in a camp that believes “refugee” means you are a guest until you can return home, not a new citizen with more rights than natives.

The European Jews there are invaders acting terribly unreasonably, they’re very Trumpian in their actions, any slight against them is an excuse to go full bore Hitler against those kids with rocks.

I don’t “just declare invasion”. It was an invasion.
Foreign people came unwanted and illegally into the country and took over by force. That’s called an invasion in English by most definitions, and an invasion it was.
The forceful invaders are ALWAYS the bad guys, the oppressors are ALWAYS the bad guys, the expansionists are ALWAYS the bad guys. That describes all the Israeli people. They are the bad guys, whether they intended to be or not.

Maybe let’s try a different tack to common ground.

It feels like the fundamental difference is on the reasonableness of the actions of the Jewish population in the 40s. I count it within reason enough to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a nation, while you count it a foreign invader from day 0(or maybe day 5 or 6).

What would you have had the Jewish European people in the 30s/40s do?

I’d like to rule out ‘wait patiently for legal avenues of immigration’ on account of at least 6million doing that, but…

It depends on the first answer, but if your answer includes the option of seeking refuge amongst the Jewish population in Palestine, then the followup:
What you have had the existing Jewish Palestinian population and new refugees do with themselves once in Palestine?

I kinda feel your POV requires the belief that, again humbly waiting for fair treatment was gonna work out well for them…

I count it as a hyper generous humanitarian gift given by Palestinians on day 1 that by day 3 (year 10+-) had become an invasion of hostile violent foreigners.

Because I don’t have a perfect solution for a problem no one could solve at the time does not in any way shape or form excuse the hostile invasion or fascist racist genocidal regimes since…
…but my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight, not run off and invade elsewhere. If they had the fighters to take Israel, they had the fighters to turn the war years earlier, but went for invasion and occupation instead.

So, you DO think the people of Haiti have the right to come to your doorstep and toss you in the street. I disagree. I reiterate, not being safe at home is no excuse to go elsewhere and make it’s inhabitants unsafe, especially if those inhabitants had nothing to do with you being unsafe, more so if they actually stuck their neck out to make some of your family safe.

I’ll try to unscramble that…”what would I have the existing Jewish Palestinian population and new refugees do with themselves once in Palestine?”…the native Jews, nothing. They’re citizens. The refugees, refugee camps of a certain size and no over crowding. Once they’re full, go elsewhere. There were other places to go, although limited. The British had an obligation to support the Palestinians and prepare them to run the country, an obligation they completely shirked and instead facilitated the invasion of hostile foreigners while keeping the Palestinians defenseless.

Fuck you 6 million. They weren’t waiting for legal avenues for immigration. Those people for the most part had no option to be refugees or decide a thing, the Germans and Polish essentially woke up one day unable to travel. The people we are talking about had over a decade, and included Germans.

No, my POV relies on the theory that you having a bad time doesn’t give you a license to murder me and steal my stuff and subjugate my descendants horrifically.
Historically many groups have had tough scary times, many ending in actual genocide. Few took that as an opportunity to do the same to another group that was trying to help them out of the tough spot. Zionists did….and with Americans help. I’ll never stop pointing it out.
The Palestinians in Gaza are suffering a genocide today. Do they have a right to go invade some weaker nation for their safety? No. That’s not reasonable or acceptable.

I think your POV relies on the theory that, because Jews were being increasingly persecuted in Europe that gives them the right to take a friendly nation by force and subjugate and persecute its people forever…

“ my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight…”

I agree that’s the noble thing to do, but I can’t condemn the ones that choose to seek safety in numbers with Jewish Palestinians as exclusively invasion minded aggressors. My 6 million tag was maybe a bit sharp, but you also know that the Nazi’s took Paris and as much as it sucked to be French or European under Nazi occupation, you also know adding Jewish to that carried a lot of extra consequence and danger to your family.

My POV is agnostic of everything save Isreali people today having a right exist as a nation. Which at this point from my POV leaves 1947 as somewhat academic.

It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.

You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.

I will state again, that is ahistorical propaganda and NOT what actually happened. And for my POV, its enough generations back as to be Academic, but for your POV it is fundamental because without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey because lots of parties all contribute to the bloodshed, and many with reasonable motivations from both sides yet too.

Please find me any reputable sources to refute the reality of 1920-1940s Palestine:
-Mass Jewish immigration fleeing European oppression raised tensions between Jewish and Arab Palestinians.(as one must expect)
-Arab palestinians were already chaffing and resisting British colonial rule(as one must expect)
-These tensions led conflict, initially more ‘civil’ with the Arab majority trying to refuse all business, sales and trade with all Jews.
-Escalation followed throughout that time, but in drips and drops and NOT a ‘surprise the Zionist army has arrived’! style of aggression

The violent escalation was a fight here, a beating there. Little individual fights, escalating into deaths. Retaliations slowly grew, with each side exchanging small escalations.

-the culmination of this was eventually all out civil war, and the Jewish side immediately accepting a UN mandated 2 state solution

-this culmination coinciding with the end of WW2 and revelations of the true extent of the holocaust can’t be ignored, it certainly shaped the Jewish mindset in the conflict.

-Their mindset was pretty clearly not inaccurate either, as the immediate response of all neighbouring Arab nations was a declaration of war on the new ‘state’, with bold claims of how quickly the Jews would be swept into the sea. The confidence was so high, a call was sent it for ALL Arab palestinians to abandon and flee the entire region of Palestine to better enable the complete cleansing of the land.

The above is all pretty much inarguably factual, and I’d bargain you could get an Arabic and Israeli scholar together to more or less agree on those facts which is saying alot.

——
Propaganda from both sides would like to declare that the Arabs harboured deep Nazi sympathies, and thus Israel was pure and true in all it did. Or from the other side, more or less your narrative of Zionist bad guys launching invasion from day 1(ish).

Both though are just sprinklings of half truths, with anti-British resentment naturally breeding some leanings towards the axis, and even genuine Nazi cleanse the Jews believers. And absolutely Zionists featured prominently within the Jewish population. Neither of those partial truths though make the propaganda of either side true, but instead just an incomplete and intentionally biased picture.


Again, please find me sources demonstrating I’m terribly wrong on all that, but the only ones I can find are clearly biased and the accurate accounts paint the picture above, the propaganda very, very clearly copies the real story more or less with just deletions of inconvenient bits

“ It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.”
No…it is at odds with your position and is not what I said.
It is factual history that fighting age European Jews came armed and forcibly displaced the natives after being offered sanctuary for their most needy. It is not factual that I claimed it was ever thus. That is clearly not what I said, I said for 10+- years they were getting along as refugees, then started coming in HUGE numbers illegally and taking over.

Those are facts.

I also mentioned a native Jewish population that were not refugees or invaders. Some of them supported the invading Zionists, some didn’t. I’ve never heard of one who opposed them.

“ You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.”

Not even close to true, I said many stood behind the Zionists when they started coming en masse, and didn’t say but seemingly few to none of the native Jews opposed them. I also was clear that at the beginning the refugees acted like refugees, not invaders….I mistakenly gave them more time being grateful than you say they were, according to you Palestinians position is they began the invasion in the 20’s….and theirs is the opinion I care about. I never claimed ALL Arabs were welcoming, but the “nation” as a whole (despite being not self ruling at the time) welcomed a huge number of refugees considering their own population. Way more than elsewhere.

Edit: Britain, who facilitated this invasion, only took in 80000 European Jews in the decade before and during the war, and they were only given transit visas to stay temporarily until they found other accommodations. All of England took in fewer Jewish refugees in all pre war history than Palestine did….England took in 80000, most on temporary visas, Palestine took in 60000 permanently in 1935 alone, and 130000 in 33-36.
Pre-immigration Palestine had about 700000 people. In 1944 European Jews ignored the 1500 visa limit per year and came by the hundred of thousands per year after already completely overwhelming the native population.
Palestine was forcibly invaded by a foreign population exponentially bigger than the native population while Britain kept them too weak to oppose it physically.
That’s an invasion…not on day 1. 🤦‍♂️

“ without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey ”

Again, I said day 3, not day 1, and went on to say that meant 10 years later. Get off your high horse and READ buddy.

I guess I’ll stop here. If you aren’t going to read what I wrote and insist on arguing red herrings you made up yourself, you can do that alone.

Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the fact that masses of armed violent invaders came to take the land from the natives by force and were successful. The exact date this happened is not only y highly subjective, it’s completely besides the point.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the inhuman treatment they’ve subjected the innocent native civilian population to for 70 years…but you’ve tried.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the intentional targeting of trapped civilians by the military….serious war crimes Israel commits daily.
Nothing you’ve said even hints that you consider Palestinians worthy of consideration themselves, possibly not even human status, definitely not peaceful existence.

Bye

Moving this video to newtboy's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

Today Israel bombed the largest remaining hospital in Gaza.
There are no Hamas fighters in the hospitals. International reporting by multiple embedded reporters in hospitals confirms that.
The hospital and its parking lot were also another refugee camp. Israel knew this when they bombed it.
This was an intentional attack on injured civilians and doctors designed to increase the civilian suffering as much as possible.

Time to glassify Jerusalem and expel the Zionists. Let them BUY a country instead of stealing one next time, or fuck off and die in a ghetto without food, water, or medicine. No sympathy whatsoever for murderous war criminals that repeatedly intentionally target children.