The issue then becomes, if we start accepting scientific facts like the big bang and evolution, that moves stories like Adam and Eve, the flood, tower of babel and the like become parables. Which I am fine with, I was fine with that when I was a Christian as that is the most likely scenario, the problem is where do we draw the line at what is parable and what is literal? Why did the creator of the universe make himself known to only one tiny tribe of people in a backwater part of the world some 6,000 years ago, and not to all of humanity around the world, why not have prophets all over? It is either a local deity, like Odin,Athena, Ra and the like, or a racist jerk.

No science will never probably answer what was there before the big bang, time itself didn't exist... That is perhaps the only valid "gap" for a god to fill. We understand how the universe came to be in its present state fairly well, with a few odd issues like dark matter/dark energy to be resolved but those are filling in. Abiogenesis is early enough in the its understanding of life origins to be a small gap, but that is filling, and the process of biological evolution is fully understood and well mapped out.

In the end the problem is that there seems to be no god actively moving on the universe or people's lives. We don't see properly documented limbs growing without science. We don't see a consistent result from praying to only the Christian God compared to praying to some Hinu god to get results (praying itself is slightly better than not, but it doesn't matter to whom is prayed, praying to the flying spaghetti monster is just as effective as praying to Yahweh or Kali). If there is a God, then he is ineffective, and that in the end is a problem for religion... and ultimately what is the point of worshiping a god that only wants people to praise and worship him while giving us nothing in return? Wohoo I believed in God (Yahweh) and now get to spend eternity praising and worshipping him full time with no distractions like work and having fun with the family...basically I get to do the same thing the angels do (and they apparently have a choice in the matter since 1/3rd of them followed Lucifer in praising him over Yahweh)... what's the point of that? To avoid the hell he created for those who chose not to end up being his praise slave 24/7 for eternity? Let me see evidence, let me see him do something for me in my life here and now, then I'll believe.

Again, there is no scientific consensus on seeing past the big bang. There just isn't. Stephen Hawking might have an idea - actually he has had a few contradictory different opinions on things over the years and he's honestly not universally respected at this point - but he's not "science" and US Today is not a great place to learn about science.

How quickly your commentary changes. I guess that's scientific, right? Before it was "NO ONE IS SAYING SOMETHING CAME FROM NOTHING STUPID!" Now it's that there is no concensus.

To be clear, I'm not making the opposite assumption. If Hawking said the Universe came from nothing, for all I know he's right. Maybe one day that will become part of established theory. Right now it isn't - in any way, shape or form - and it's not part of the general Big Bang theory; it's just the speculation, possibly not even terribly serious speculation, of a famous physicist.

Ahh, more science here..before you said, that something comes from nothing makes no sense. Now it's, a scientist said it so I can believe its true. Hah!

Science doesn't have the full picture. People will try to figure out more, but until then Science is OK with not knowing everything.

Science doesn't know anything about origins, whether it is the origin of the Universe, or life itself. It doesn't have a clue, and it is plainly obvious when one of the foremost scientists in the world is positing that something came from nothing and everyone is nodding sagely. The emperor has no clothes.

But now I'm curious, about your full picture. How old is the Earth? How long ago were Adam and Eve (assuming you believe in a literal Adam and Eve)? Was there a worldwide flood? Why does it really, really look like there wasn't? Were there dinosaurs? When did they live and die? Was there pre-human human like beings (Cromagnons and what not)? If not, what are all those skeletons, artifacts and history? Why is it the further we dig the less complex the fossils are? Did all humans once speak the same language? Was there a tower of Babel where the languages split? Is the universe expanding?

I don't want to lose the thread here. If you want to discuss all of these things, message me.

Overall, is science right about pretty much everything, other than the few places it contradicts your scripture? Isn't that an odd coincidence? Or do you think science is wrong about a bunch of other stuff too?

Science gets a lot right but overall it is blind. I appreciate science, and I have nothing against it. I am just against things which aren't science, such as macro evolution.

>> ^jmzero:
@shinyblurry
You never explained anything but rather offered your amatuer opinion. Here is the opinion of an expert:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-09-03-hawking02_ST_N.htm
Congrats, you can use Google - but no, that isn't much of a link (I'm very surprised you couldn't find something better than that, really). Hell, the story doesn't even support the headline. But even if Stephen Hawking swears on his life that the Universe came from nothing, it wouldn't mean us "followers of Scientism" would believe that. Science doesn't work like that.
Again, there is no scientific consensus on seeing past the big bang. There just isn't. Stephen Hawking might have an idea - actually he has had a few contradictory different opinions on things over the years and he's honestly not universally respected at this point - but he's not "science" and US Today is not a great place to learn about science.
And did I explain it before? Yes, I did. I just checked. So did a couple other VS posters. And you commented on the Tyson Big Bang video. Did you watch it before writing your stupid comment (oh, and it was stupid)? In there, he explicitly says that the Big Bang theory doesn't explain what happened before a certain threshold. As Tyson says around 31 minutes, we need a new theory to get us before that.
That's the current scientific consensus. His talk is simple and easy to understand, and you pretended to watch it. Do you think he's lying about the current state of knowledge? Do you think he's wrong? Or do you think some new secret scientific consensus has maybe emerged since that video? Hint: it hasn't.
To be clear, I'm not making the opposite assumption. If Hawking said the Universe came from nothing, for all I know he's right. Maybe one day that will become part of established theory. Right now it isn't - in any way, shape or form - and it's not part of the general Big Bang theory; it's just the speculation, possibly not even terribly serious speculation, of a famous physicist.
To learn about what is the Big Bang theory, try the Wikipedia article - which, as I quoted before, does represent more or less the current consensus. (Hint: when you want to learn about scientific theory at a "popular" level, try Wikipedia before USA Today). As it says, science doesn't have a consensus on seeing past the Big Bang. You can see some other speculative theories at the end of that article.
Science doesn't have the full picture. People will try to figure out more, but until then Science is OK with not knowing everything.
But now I'm curious, about your full picture. How old is the Earth? How long ago were Adam and Eve (assuming you believe in a literal Adam and Eve)? Was there a worldwide flood? Why does it really, really look like there wasn't? Were there dinosaurs? When did they live and die? Was there pre-human human like beings (Cromagnons and what not)? If not, what are all those skeletons, artifacts and history? Why is it the further we dig the less complex the fossils are? Did all humans once speak the same language? Was there a tower of Babel where the languages split? Is the universe expanding?
Overall, is science right about pretty much everything, other than the few places it contradicts your scripture? Isn't that an odd coincidence? Or do you think science is wrong about a bunch of other stuff too?

@shinyblurry

You never explained anything but rather offered your amatuer opinion. Here is the opinion of an expert:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-09-03-hawking02_ST_N.htm


Congrats, you can use Google - but no, that isn't much of a link (I'm very surprised you couldn't find something better than that, really). Hell, the story doesn't even support the headline. But even if Stephen Hawking swears on his life that the Universe came from nothing, it wouldn't mean us "followers of Scientism" would believe that. Science doesn't work like that.

Again, there is no scientific consensus on seeing past the big bang. There just isn't. Stephen Hawking might have an idea - actually he has had a few contradictory different opinions on things over the years and he's honestly not universally respected at this point - but he's not "science" and US Today is not a great place to learn about science.

And did I explain it before? Yes, I did. I just checked. So did a couple other VS posters. And you commented on the Tyson Big Bang video. Did you watch it before writing your stupid comment (oh, and it was stupid)? In there, he explicitly says that the Big Bang theory doesn't explain what happened before a certain threshold. As Tyson says around 31 minutes, we need a new theory to get us before that.

That's the current scientific consensus. His talk is simple and easy to understand, and you pretended to watch it. Do you think he's lying about the current state of knowledge? Do you think he's wrong? Or do you think some new secret scientific consensus has maybe emerged since that video? Hint: it hasn't.

To be clear, I'm not making the opposite assumption. If Hawking said the Universe came from nothing, for all I know he's right. Maybe one day that will become part of established theory. Right now it isn't - in any way, shape or form - and it's not part of the general Big Bang theory; it's just the speculation, possibly not even terribly serious speculation, of a famous physicist.

To learn about what is the Big Bang theory, try the Wikipedia article - which, as I quoted before, does represent more or less the current consensus. (Hint: when you want to learn about scientific theory at a "popular" level, try Wikipedia before USA Today). As it says, science doesn't have a consensus on seeing past the Big Bang. You can see some other speculative theories at the end of that article.

Science doesn't have the full picture. People will try to figure out more, but until then Science is OK with not knowing everything.

But now I'm curious, about your full picture. How old is the Earth? How long ago were Adam and Eve (assuming you believe in a literal Adam and Eve)? Was there a worldwide flood? Why does it really, really look like there wasn't? Were there dinosaurs? When did they live and die? Was there pre-human human like beings (Cromagnons and what not)? If not, what are all those skeletons, artifacts and history? Why is it the further we dig the less complex the fossils are? Did all humans once speak the same language? Was there a tower of Babel where the languages split? Is the universe expanding?

Overall, is science right about pretty much everything, other than the few places it contradicts your scripture? Isn't that an odd coincidence? Or do you think science is wrong about a bunch of other stuff too?

Watched this the other night on iplayer. Fascinating stuff. I urge you to watch it all.

"I'm very much in favour of the Tower of Babel."

>> ^Doc_M:
Disclaimer: I recognize that I know jack-shit about space technology, and that I don't understand how exactly we get information direct from from outerspace installations and etc... but seriously, come on. 30 years and no improvement?


30 years? How about 3000 years of God slacking off. (Forgive me, Lord.) He incites chaos at the Tower of Babel, yet NASA continues to send these blasphemous vehicles into space. This is like a million times closer to Heaven than the tower those heathens built.

But at least It Was Written. If it wasn't written and the authors weren't authenticated within a 0 percent fail rate (because it's 100% Truth, as proven by its existence), our modern minds might not believe a story about a tower made out of pre-industrial material reaching God's palace in the sky. Aha! But our Lord God is much more wise and clever than we puny mortals: He moved Heaven.

So that's like 2 things to be thankful for, in spite of this monstrous affront to our Creator.

(I thought they were all going to die, which is why I upvoted it. Wish I could have my vote back...)

Other tough questions:

-Revelations: Why would a loving God engage in this kind of genocide?
-Noah's Ark: Again, what's up with God mass murdering 99.9 percent of his creations?
-The Fall: Why would a loving God punish all humans for the flaws of his prototypes?
-Jesus: What was the point of all that pomp and circumstance?
-Jealous God: Why is God described in the Bible as Jealous? Isn't that a petty emotion for such a powerful being? Why would God overlook the good deeds of people who do not believe in him because of this jealously?
-Cultures: Why did the Judeo/Christian God not make himself known to all cultures?
-Tower of Babel: Do you really believe that all humans at one time spoke the same language? Did God create Esparanto? What about Kingon?
-Eating shellfish, wearing garments of more than one type of cloth are abominations in the eyes of the Lord; do you engage in these activities?
-No new miracles: God used to do awesome shit all the time in Bible days; why hasn't he done cool shit lately, within the last 2 millenia?
-Why do we have 'tailbones'? Why do some people have vestigial tails?
-Does God send people that are unaware of Christianity to hell?
-Suffering, disease, starvation, birth defects, Dinosaur bones, Christian rock, etc......

>> ^videosiftbannedme:
Funny how we're back to using a universal language to speak to each other again and "god" hasn't done shit about it. TCP/IP anyone?


He's waiting for IPv6 like the rest of us.

Your video, Messed-Up Bible Stories 5: Tower of Babel, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

I can only repeat what i said on the thread, it's the most hate mongering fear factor old shite that i've ever heard.. i dunno where they dragged him up from but i'm sure it wasn't a university nor a list of qualified solar experts. Whispering "this is a worst case scenario BUT SHIT COULD GET REAL LOOK OUT EVERYONE BUILD A BUNKER BE SCARED OF THE SUN HE'S GOING TO THROW HIS ANCIENT TEMPER TANTRUM LAST TIME THIS HAPPENED WE LOST THE TOWER OF BABEL!"

Sorry but it's absolute bollocks and i enjoyed ripping into him. If they presented me with a physics expert who used scientific terms instead of emotional terms, i'd listen and say "hmmm, interesting!" cos i actually love science especially astrophysics. But presenting me with 'some bloke' that tells me to be scared and that the sun is 'throwing a wobbler' - which i assume is a technical scientific term so i don't understand it completely, he's talking way too far above my head - is just stupid.

In reply to this comment by Mauru:
In reply to this comment by dannym3141:
...

Don't get so worked up Danny- he repeatedly mentioned it is a WORST CASE scenario, i.e. very, very unlikely to happen- I agree he could have mentioned the odds or sth, but the fact that the sun has cycles and that things like this happened before seems rather interesting to me (and not really all that scary).

It reminds me of Tower of Babel.

Bulbous also tapered.

Welcome to the New Third World Order. If we continue in the spiral downward socially, economically and demographically, the dillution of culture will make this place (USA) look like the cheese from space.....No sense of style, class, taste, evrything made from plastic in Taiwan, and the universal language will sound like construction crews at the Tower of Babel........Oh, not to metion a large segment of societies worldwide who are centuries behind the reformation in their sensibilities and cultures.......But of course, we have to be sensitive and caring, and bring countries up to speed slowly, like poor Kim Jong Il, and "wouldawannagettAhmadinejad" mad.......And Folks with some common sense and love for the planet that surpasses carbon emissions, get curt,clever little come-backs from crotch-scatching, cut-and-paste college kids, who think driving a hybrid car will solve the worlds ills.........

But, Chomsky saw this bullshit coming 40 years ago, lotsa folks did

Oh yeah and Bill Maher is a snipeish little twerp, whose irritating tone and timbre is not unlike Nosferatu's fingernails on a chalkboard from Bill's elementary school he never graduated from.......